Why Was Britain Defeated in Malaya?

Discussions on WW2 in the Pacific and the Sino-Japanese War.
rcocean
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Re: Why Was Britain Defeated in Malaya?

Post by rcocean » 12 Feb 2022 00:29

To Mr. Ward :

You are exactly correct. It was Brenton not Brett. I often two mixed up. Good catch!

paulrward
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Re: Why Was Britain Defeated in Malaya?

Post by paulrward » 12 Feb 2022 00:30

Hello All ;

Once again, Mr. Anderson, while often wrong, is never in doubt.

General George C. Marshall was promoted to General of the Army on December 16, 1944.
General Douglas MacArthur was promoted to General of the Army on December 18, 1944.

However, Both of these Promotions were Wartime Brevet Ranks, in the Army of the United States.

After the War was over, these promotions could be revoked at any time, and the officers
involved would revert to their regular ranks.

On March 23, 1946, Douglas MacArthur was promoted to General of the Army IN THE REGULAR ARMY,
A PERMANENT PROMOTION.


On April 11, 1946, George C. Marshall was promoted to General of the Army in the Regular Army.

On April 11, 1946, Dwight D. Eisenhower was promoted to General of the Army in the Regular Army.

Thus, Douglas MacArthur's promotion to General PREDATED George C. Marshall's and Eisenhower's
promotions. In the strict heirarchy of the U.S. Army, MacArthur OUTRANKED both Marshall and
Eisenhower.



Mr. Daveshoup2MD, I would be careful of the ' Ignore Button ' - it can leave you as ignorant as some
historians....


Respectfully

Paul R. Ward


P.S. Mr. Anderson, you are always bitching about Trolls-What's the matter-don't you like Christmas Carols ?
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daveshoup2MD
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Re: Why Was Britain Defeated in Malaya?

Post by daveshoup2MD » 12 Feb 2022 00:53

paulrward wrote:
12 Feb 2022 00:30
Hello All ;

Once again, Mr. Anderson, while often wrong, is never in doubt.

General George C. Marshall was promoted to General of the Army on December 16, 1944.
General Douglas MacArthur was promoted to General of the Army on December 18, 1944.

However, Both of these Promotions were Wartime Brevet Ranks, in the Army of the United States.

After the War was over, these promotions could be revoked at any time, and the officers
involved would revert to their regular ranks.

On March 23, 1946, Douglas MacArthur was promoted to General of the Army IN THE REGULAR ARMY,
A PERMANENT PROMOTION.


On April 11, 1946, George C. Marshall was promoted to General of the Army in the Regular Army.

On April 11, 1946, Dwight D. Eisenhower was promoted to General of the Army in the Regular Army.

Thus, Douglas MacArthur's promotion to General PREDATED George C. Marshall's and Eisenhower's
promotions. In the strict heirarchy of the U.S. Army, MacArthur OUTRANKED both Marshall and
Eisenhower.
Again - according to the UNITED STATES ARMY, who presumably should know - MacArthur didn't get his fifth star until 1944, and his date of rank post-dated GCM's by two days, so ... no.

https://history.army.mil/html/faq/5star.html

Note the army.mil address above; should give one an idea of the source, so: Please provide an official source for your contention.

Note: full text of webpage linked to above provided below:

How many U.S. Army five-star generals have there been and who were they?

The temporary grade of "General of the Army" (five-star) was provided for by Public Law 482, 78th Congress, approved December 14, 1944, and became permanent on March 23, 1946, under provisions of Public Law 333, 79th Congress.

Five-Star Generals and Dates of Rank:

General of the Army George C. Marshall: December 16, 1944

General of the Army Douglas MacArthur: December 18, 1944

General of the Army Dwight D. Eisenhower: December 20, 1944

General of the Army Henry H. Arnold: December 21, 1944
(Redesignated General of the Air Force pursuant to Public Law 58, 81st Congress, approved May 7, 1949)

General of the Army Omar N. Bradley: September 20, 1950

Note:

The grade of General of the Armies of the United States is associated with two officers in our history, George Washington and John J. Pershing, although only General Pershing actually held it.

After Washington's death, an Act of May 14, 1800, specifically authorized President Adams to suspend any further appointment to the office of General of the Armies of the United States, "having reference to economy and the good of the service." Although the office was not expressly referred to in any of the actions taken to reduce or disband forces that had been raised in contemplation of war with France, it ceased when it was not mentioned in the Act of March 16, 1802, which determined the peacetime military establishment.

Congress enacted legislation authorizing the grade of General of the Army on July 25, 1866, and on that date the new grade was conferred on Lieutenant General Ulysses S. Grant. The grade was recognized and continued in various acts until the Act of July 15, 1870, which contained the requirement that "the offices of general and lieutenant general shall continue until a vacancy shall exist in the same, and no longer, and when such vacancy shall occur in either of said offices shall become inoperative, and shall, by virtue of this act, from thence forward be held to be repealed."

William T. Sherman, Grant's successor as Commanding General of the Army, was appointed as General of the Army on March 4, 1869, and upon his retirement in February 1884 was placed on the retired list as General of the Army. Under the provisions of the Act of March 3, 1885, authorizing the appointment of a "general of the Army on the retired list," this grade was also conferred on General Grant shortly before his death on July 23, 1885. The title ceased to exist as a grade of military rank at Sherman's death on February 14, 1891.

Sherman's successor was Lieutenant General Philip H. Sheridan, who could not be promoted to General of the Army because of the 1870 law. Congress, however, enacted legislation on June 1, 1888, shortly before Sheridan's death, that discontinued the grade of lieutenant general and merged it with that of General of the Army. The grade of General of the Army was conferred on Sheridan and was discontinued when he died, while still on active duty on August 5, 1888.

War Department General Orders No. 75, September 5, 1866, prescribed that the insignia for the newly authorized General of the Army grade would be four stars. General Grant wore this insignia, as did General Sherman until War Department General Orders No. 92, October 26, 1872, changed the insignia to two silver stars with the arms of the United States in gold between them. General Sherman, and later General Sheridan, wore the new insignia.

Congress revived the grade of General of the Armies of the United States by Public Law 45, approved September 3, 1919, to honor General John J. Pershing for his wartime service. He retired with that rank on September 13, 1924, and held it until his death on July 15, 1948. No other officer held this specific title until 1976, when President Ford posthumously appointed George Washington General of the Armies of the United States and specified that he would rank first among all officers of the Army, past and present.

When General Pershing was appointed General of the Armies, he continued to wear the four stars that he, as well as Generals Tasker H. Bliss and Peyton C. March, had adopted under the provisions of then current uniform regulations, which permitted them to prescribe the insignia denoting their grade. Army Regulations 600-35, Personnel: The Prescribed Uniform, October 12, 1921, and all subsequent editions during General Pershing's lifetime, made no mention of insignia for General of the Armies but prescribed that generals would wear four stars. General Pershing at no time wore more than four stars.

Following the establishment of the General of the Army grade on December 14, 1944, Army Regulations 600-35 were changed to prescribe that Generals of the Army would wear five stars. Although General Pershing continued to wear only four, he remained preeminent among all Army personnel, by virtue of Congressional action and Army Regulations governing rank and precedence, until his death on July 15, 1948.

Sources: United States Code, 1946 Edition, Volume Four, Title 50; The Army Almanac (Harrisburg, PA: Stackpole Company, 1959); Department of the Army, Official Army Register, Volume I (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1951); Raymond Oliver, "Why is the Colonel Called Kernel," (McClellan, AFB: Office of History, Sacramento Air Logistics Center, August 1983); William Gardner Bell, Commanding Generals and Chiefs of Staff, 1775-1987 (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Army Center of Military History, 1987).

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Richard Anderson
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Re: Why Was Britain Defeated in Malaya?

Post by Richard Anderson » 12 Feb 2022 01:27

daveshoup2MD wrote:
11 Feb 2022 20:33
Yes, but education is a goal, hence the link added above...;)

Fiat Lux!
Indeed, but again as an effort to stave off silly responses, no MacArthur did not "outrank" Marshall prior to 16 December 1944 by virtue of his appointment as General prior to Marshall's. In that case, organizational hierarchy trumped precedence. Marshall as CoS of the Army was by law the ranking commander in the Army. In the same way, prior to 11 April 1951 when he was relieved of command and returned to retirement, MacArthur did not outrank Eisenhower, Bradley, or Collins, all of whom were CoS of the Army. In the same sense, if a major general commanding a division was under command of a major general commanding a corps, they did not compare dates of rank to decide who was in command.

Oh, I see I was too late. :roll:

No, the rank of General of the Army was not a "brevet", although the Wiki article I suppose Mr. Respectfully is probably keying from does call it "temporary". However, Wiki is wrong, I know, shocker. "Temporary" only related in the statute for officers on the Retired List; the original intent was that when they left active duty they would revert to their substantive rank before their appointment as General of the Army or Admiral of the Navy; likely the intent was to keep Big Mac reined in. Specifically for officers not retired, the original term of their service as General of the Army or Admiral of the Navy was at the President's discretion. However, on 23 March 1946 the statute was modified to make all appointment to the rank made between 14 December 1944 and 14 December 1945 permanent.

If you wish to read the actual statutes, go to https://govtrackus.s3.amazonaws.com/leg ... Pg802a.pdf and https://govtrackus.s3.amazonaws.com/leg ... -Pg59a.pdf

Nor were the original promotions in the A.U.S., you will find them given under the R.A. section for each of the officers in the Army Register, in the 1945 edition, you know, before 1946 when Mr. Respectful imagines they were changed.
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Richard Anderson
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Re: Why Was Britain Defeated in Malaya?

Post by Richard Anderson » 12 Feb 2022 01:34

daveshoup2MD wrote:
12 Feb 2022 00:53
The temporary grade of "General of the Army" (five-star) was provided for by Public Law 482, 78th Congress, approved December 14, 1944, and became permanent on March 23, 1946, under provisions of Public Law 333, 79th Congress.
Interesting. Whoever at OCMH wrote that up should go back and read the relevant statutes. Again, the rank was originally temporary in the sense that in the 1944 Act the length of service in the rank was at the discretion of the President as Commander in Chief.
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paulrward
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Re: Why Was Britain Defeated in Malaya?

Post by paulrward » 12 Feb 2022 01:48

Hello All ;

To Mr. Daveshoup2MD ;

Please go back and re- read my postings. Yes, the Congress did authorize those ranks
IN THE ARMY OF THE UNITED STATES. This was NOT the United States Army.

If you want to cut and paste large chunks of text, feel free. However, I should note:
I had a relative who served in the First World War, and who rose to the rank of Major in
The National Army - which only existed during WW1 and the immediate aftermath.
After the war was over, he retired with the rank of Major, rather than reverting to his
peacetime, Regular Army Rank of ....... Corporal.

Again, I must emphasize. MacArthur's rank of General of the Army PREDATED those of the
other officers IN THE REGULAR ARMY - the dates of which I have given you.

Mr. Daveshoup2MD, how about doing a ten minute Wikipedia search, and see if I am correct.



I note that Mr. Anderson has made an addition to his posting, but again, he is simply wrong.
Hundreds of officers were given higher ranks in the Army of the United States, and with
the end of the war, reverted to their lower, Regular Army Rank in the United States Army.

While the determination of relative rank can be determined by the organizational heirarchy,
the pure and simple fact is, after March of 1946, MacArthur was the Senior General of the
Army in the United States Army ( the Regular Army ). While he might have reported to the
COS, or later to whoever was in the JCS, he still had the highest seniority as a General of
the Army in the Regular Army. By nearly three weeks.


Respectfully

Paul R. Ward
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daveshoup2MD
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Re: Why Was Britain Defeated in Malaya?

Post by daveshoup2MD » 12 Feb 2022 03:17

Richard Anderson wrote:
12 Feb 2022 01:27
daveshoup2MD wrote:
11 Feb 2022 20:33
Yes, but education is a goal, hence the link added above...;)

Fiat Lux!
Indeed, but again as an effort to stave off silly responses, no MacArthur did not "outrank" Marshall prior to 16 December 1944 by virtue of his appointment as General prior to Marshall's. In that case, organizational hierarchy trumped precedence. Marshall as CoS of the Army was by law the ranking commander in the Army. In the same way, prior to 11 April 1951 when he was relieved of command and returned to retirement, MacArthur did not outrank Eisenhower, Bradley, or Collins, all of whom were CoS of the Army. In the same sense, if a major general commanding a division was under command of a major general commanding a corps, they did not compare dates of rank to decide who was in command.

Oh, I see I was too late. :roll:

No, the rank of General of the Army was not a "brevet", although the Wiki article I suppose Mr. Respectfully is probably keying from does call it "temporary". However, Wiki is wrong, I know, shocker. "Temporary" only related in the statute for officers on the Retired List; the original intent was that when they left active duty they would revert to their substantive rank before their appointment as General of the Army or Admiral of the Navy; likely the intent was to keep Big Mac reined in. Specifically for officers not retired, the original term of their service as General of the Army or Admiral of the Navy was at the President's discretion. However, on 23 March 1946 the statute was modified to make all appointment to the rank made between 14 December 1944 and 14 December 1945 permanent.

If you wish to read the actual statutes, go to https://govtrackus.s3.amazonaws.com/leg ... Pg802a.pdf and https://govtrackus.s3.amazonaws.com/leg ... -Pg59a.pdf

Nor were the original promotions in the A.U.S., you will find them given under the R.A. section for each of the officers in the Army Register, in the 1945 edition, you know, before 1946 when Mr. Respectful imagines they were changed.
Yeah, I'm going to go the United States Army over Wikipedia. Shocking, I know. ;)

daveshoup2MD
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Re: Why Was Britain Defeated in Malaya?

Post by daveshoup2MD » 12 Feb 2022 03:18

paulrward wrote:
12 Feb 2022 01:48

Mr. Daveshoup2MD, how about doing a ten minute Wikipedia search, and see if I am correct.
Yeah, I'm going to go with the United States Army over Wikipedia. Shocking, I know. :roll:

Again - try clicking on the link, and consider the source:

https://history.army.mil/html/faq/5star.html

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Re: Why Was Britain Defeated in Malaya?

Post by paulrward » 12 Feb 2022 04:04

Hello All

To Mr Daveshoup2md

Then maybe you should learn how to read. From the website you cited :
The temporary grade of "General of the Army" (five-star) was provided for by
Public Law 482, 78th Congress, approved December 14, 1944, and became
permanent on March 23, 1946
, under provisions of Public Law 333, 79th Congress.

What it doesn't mention is the fact that MacArthur's rank was made Permanent on
March 23, 1946, but Marshall's and Eisenhower's ranks were NOT made Permanent
until April 11, 1946.


And, if you want to cite websites, the Dwight D. Eisenhower Presidential Library, which can
be found here :

https://www.eisenhowerlibrary.gov/eisenhowers

Clearly states, in the summary of Eisenhower's career,
December 20, 1944: Promoted to General of the Army (5 stars). Shortly after
the German surrender, May 8, 1945, appointed Military Governor, U.S. Occupied Zone,
Frankfurt, Germany.

November 19, 1945: Designated as Chief of Staff, U.S. Army.

April 11, 1946: Wartime rank of General of the Army converted to permanent rank.

So, while MacArthur's rank was made permanent immediately upon the passage of the law, the
other Generals and Admirals appear to have been delayed in their promotion.

Respectfully ;

Paul R. Ward
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Re: Why Was Britain Defeated in Malaya?

Post by daveshoup2MD » 12 Feb 2022 04:39

paulrward wrote:
12 Feb 2022 04:04
Hello All

To Mr Daveshoup2md

Then maybe you should learn how to read. From the website you cited :
The temporary grade of "General of the Army" (five-star) was provided for by
Public Law 482, 78th Congress, approved December 14, 1944, and became
permanent on March 23, 1946
, under provisions of Public Law 333, 79th Congress.

What it doesn't mention is the fact that MacArthur's rank was made Permanent on
March 23, 1946, but Marshall's and Eisenhower's ranks were NOT made Permanent
until April 11, 1946.


And, if you want to cite websites, the Dwight D. Eisenhower Presidential Library, which can
be found here :

https://www.eisenhowerlibrary.gov/eisenhowers

Clearly states, in the summary of Eisenhower's career,
December 20, 1944: Promoted to General of the Army (5 stars). Shortly after
the German surrender, May 8, 1945, appointed Military Governor, U.S. Occupied Zone,
Frankfurt, Germany.

November 19, 1945: Designated as Chief of Staff, U.S. Army.

April 11, 1946: Wartime rank of General of the Army converted to permanent rank.

So, while MacArthur's rank was made permanent immediately upon the passage of the law, the
other Generals and Admirals appear to have been delayed in their promotion.

Respectfully ;

Paul R. Ward
Please provide any source beyond your say-so regarding Marshall and MacArthur; Thanks in advance.

paulrward
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Re: Why Was Britain Defeated in Malaya?

Post by paulrward » 12 Feb 2022 06:16

Hello All ;

Mr. Daveshoup2MD posted:
Please provide any source beyond your say-so regarding
Marshall and MacArthur; Thanks in advance.
OK

Marshall: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_C._Marshall

You can find the dates of his various promotions about halfway down the page. It clearly states
that he was made a temporary General of the Army in the Army of the United States on
December 16, 1944, and a permanent General of the Army in the United States Army on April 11,
1946.

MacArthur: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_s ... _MacArthur

In this article, it clearly states that he was promoted to General of the Army on December 18, 1944,
making him the second highest ranking officer behind Marshall. It goes on to state further down that
he was
23 March 1946: Permanently promoted to General of the Army.
Which was 19 days ahead of Marshall's promotion.

I am attaching a JPEG made from the Wikipedia Article on MacArthur, to help explain some of these
issues. If you study it, you will see that in December, 1915, MacArthur was promoted to the
permanent rank of Major, Engineers, in the Regular Army. Then, a year and a half later, he had
transferred to the National Army, and was breveted to the rank of Colonel, Infantry. Within a year,
he was promoted to Brigadier General in the National Army. However, had the war ended on that
day, he would have reverted to his rank of MAJOR in the Regular Army.

However, after the Great War ended, he returned to the USA, and was promoted to the rank of
Brigadier General in the Regular Army, with promotion date of February 28th, and a Date of Rank
of January 20, 1920. This happened frequently, promotions were backdated to add seniority for
a given officer.

MacArthur became a Major General in the Regular Army in 1925, and, in 1930, upon being appointed
COS of the Army, was given the Temporary Rank of General ( Four Stars ) Upon the end of his term
as COS in 1935, he reverted to Major General in the Regular Army. In 1938, he retired, and when
you retire, your rank is the highest regular or brevet rank you held while in the Army, which in
MacArthur's case, was General ( Four Stars ). Thus, he became a ' Full General ' in retirement.

When, in 1941, he was brought out of retirement by Roosevelt, he was activated at his last
regular Army Rank of Major General, and the following day, was promoted to Lieutenant General
( Three Stars ) in the Army of the United States, a brevet promotion.

He was again promoted to Full General in the Army of the United States in late December, 1941,
with a Date of Rank of 16 September, 1936, which was the date of his previous retirement from
the Regular Army. This was because, under the then existing Army Regulations, he could NOT have
been called back into service by Roosevelt in 1941 as a Major General, but rather, he should have
been recalled to service as a Full General - Which Roosevelt didn't want to do, because that would
have meant that he would have outranked Marshall, who was Roosevelt's ' boy '. When the
Pentagon promoted him back to Four Star, they gave MacArthur the seniority he should have had
assuming that Roosevelt had complied with Army Regulations.

When this happened, suddenly, MacArthur again outranked Marshall, whose appointment as a Full
General was dated September 1, 1939. Marshall wasn't happy about this at all. This meant that
MacArthur's Regular Rank of Major General preceeded Marshall's, and his Temporary Rank of
Full General ALSO preceeded Marshall's.

As we have been discussing, the Promotions of Marshall and MacArthur to Generals of the Army
in the Army of the United States ( Temporary, or Brevet Promotions ) were done between 16
and 18 December, 1944. So, at this time, Marshall finally was ahead of MacArthur, by two
days. ( Actually, it was only one day, because MacArthur was on the other side of the Date Line ! )
But, MacArthur got a twist on Marshall, because his staff quickly made up some Five Star Shoulder
and Collar Insignia, using silver dimes cut into stars and soldered to rings made from silver Quarter
Dollars, and MacArthur's photo of him in his five star insignia got in the papers a few days ahead of
Marshall's who had waited until a Washington DC jeweller could make him the proper insignia.

Now we come to 1946. The Second World War is over ( Game called on account of A-Bomb ) and
The Army of the United States is being rolled up, with officers returning to the Regular Army, and
their Regular Army Ranks. This can be traumatic, because, with reductions in rank back to
Regular Army Rank, an Officer often found that an Ass he Kicked last year was an Ass he now had
to Kiss today !

In the case of the Brevet Five Stars of 1944, the Congress had a solution. They pass an Act,
which regularized their Five Star Rank. The Date the Act went into effect was 23 March, 1946,
and that was the date that MacArthur became a General of the Army in the Regular Army.

However, Roosevelt was dead, and for some reason, Marshall's and Eisenhower's promotion
dates were set at April 11, 1946.

Now, it must be noted: Had the Congress not acted as they had, MacArthur would have had
a choice: Either revert to Major General ( Two Star ) or again Retire as a Full General ( Four
Star ). Fortunately for MacArthur, the Congress had come through for him, and he was a
General of the Army in the Regular United States Army with a full 18 days seniority over both
Marshall, who he had downgraded for promotion while he was COS, and Eisenhower, who was,
admittedly, the best clerk he ever had....

Hopefully the attached JPEG will make this all a bit more clear.

Respectfully ;

Paul R. Ward

MacArthur Rank.jpg
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Richard Anderson
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Re: Why Was Britain Defeated in Malaya?

Post by Richard Anderson » 12 Feb 2022 08:33

Damn, I guess Wikipedia outweighs the actual language of the Acts creating the ranks. And the entries in the Official Register. Good to know.
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Re: Why Was Britain Defeated in Malaya?

Post by Richard Anderson » 12 Feb 2022 08:35

daveshoup2MD wrote:
12 Feb 2022 04:39
Please provide any source beyond your say-so regarding Marshall and MacArthur; Thanks in advance.
In case you haven't noticed, the stupid is very strong with some. The language of the Acts is remarkably easy to find and to follow. The entries in the Official Register are easy to find and easy to follow. However, magical thinking is pervasive in the world. I blame Marvel and DC comics.
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R Leonard
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Re: Why Was Britain Defeated in Malaya?

Post by R Leonard » 12 Feb 2022 17:30

U.S. Army Register 1947, page 709 (Active Duty). Note last date.
Marshall Register Info.jpg
U.S. Army Register 1947, page 330 (Active Duty). Note last date.
Eisenhower Register.jpg
U.S. Army Register 1947, page 1502 (Retired Officers on Active Duty). Note last date.
MacArthur Register Info.jpg
Seems the U S Army likes the 23 March 1946 permanent date for all three. In truth, the 1946 date simply served to make permanent the original 1944 appointments dates, which, if one looks closely, the precedence dates are based on original commissions as 2LTs; Marshall 1901, MacArthur 1903, and Eisenhower 1915.
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paulrward
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Re: Why Was Britain Defeated in Malaya?

Post by paulrward » 12 Feb 2022 20:09

Hello All ;

OK, so why does the Eisenhower Presidential Library, ON THEIR WEBSITE, STATE THE FOLLOWING ?

( here is a Screenshot of the relevant page, which can be found at

https://www.eisenhowerlibrary.gov/eisenhowers

We can see the following information ( I have highlighted the relevant part )
Eisenhower Rank.jpg

So, apparently everyone associated with the Eisenhower Library has no idea about the career
of the former President of the United States ?



Respectfully:

Paul R. Ward
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