Stalingrad

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
ljadw
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 01 Mar 2022 15:29

250 k is a big exaggeration :most of 6th army was not encircled .

Boby
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by Boby » 01 Mar 2022 16:10

ljadw wrote:
01 Mar 2022 15:29
250 k is a big exaggeration :most of 6th army was not encircled .
Supply? I think most of combat troops were.

ljadw
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 01 Mar 2022 21:18

My answer was on the claim of 250000 German troops encircled .
Art has given as source a now no longer operational site where one can find the needed informations .
If my memory is still correct, the number of Germans encircled at Stalingrad was less than 150000,of whom a small number was transported out of the Kessel, + an unknown number of Romanians and Hiwis .Following Anthony Beevor,there were 50000 Hiwis at Stalingrad (encircled or not ) .

Boby
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by Boby » 01 Mar 2022 23:08

Yes, but I mean the non-encircled part were mostly supply/non-combat troops, far away from the front.

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Yuri
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by Yuri » 02 Mar 2022 08:08

ljadw wrote:
01 Mar 2022 21:18
My answer was on the claim of 250000 German troops encircled .
Art has given as source a now no longer operational site where one can find the needed informations .
If my memory is still correct, the number of Germans encircled at Stalingrad was less than 150000,of whom a small number was transported out of the Kessel, + an unknown number of Romanians and Hiwis .Following Anthony Beevor,there were 50000 Hiwis at Stalingrad (encircled or not ) .
Some information about what or who "Hiwis" are and what they are eaten with.

Officially, from July 1, 1942 to May 19, 1943 (the date of the publication of the Fuhrer's special Order granting citizenship of the Third Reich to one of the "Hiwis" category), there were three categories of "Hiwis".

The first category (the most massive) "Hiwis" is "Germans of non-"The Third Reich" citizenship", that is, they are military personnel in the German Wehrmacht who were Germans by blood, but were citizens of other European states (France, Holland, Yugoslavia, Hungary, etc.).

The second category of "Hiwis" is "Cossack cavalry squadrons". They consisted of Russian Cossacks, both "WhiteEmigrants" and citizens of the USSR.
Very insignificant in number on the Soviet-European Front in 1942 and operated mainly in the Caucasus as part of the 1.Pz.A .

The third category of "Hiwis" is "Ukrainians", these are citizens of the USSR, Ukrainians by nationality.
This category of "Hiwis" could only be used in construction battalions, security and logistics units.
This is according to German law, everything else is speculation, fiction or confusion.

In 1943, the laws (orders) regarding the composition and position of Hiwis were radically changed. In its finished form, that is, it operated until the end of the war, appeared in November 1943.

During the Battle of Stalingrad, the laws/orders of 1942 were in force in relation to "Hiwis".

As part of the German 6th Army and 4th Tank Army, there were few battalions of "Hiwis-Ukrainians".

The bulk of who got into the Stalingrad cauldron is the first category of "Hiwis" - "Germans of non-"The Third Reich" citizenship".

Anthony Beevor is an ardent Russophobe and, as a result, his books devoted to the Soviet Union and its glorious Workers' and Peasants' Red Army are sources of disinformation, this applies, among other things, to information about the Battle of Stalingrad.

I am the main debunker of the myth about 50,000 "Russian volunteers" ("Hiwis") who allegedly acted as part of the forces of the European armies surrounded in Stalingrad. The myth was exposed a long time ago (many, many years ago) on one of the Russian forums (http://livinghistory.ru )

Globalization41
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Stalingrad

Post by Globalization41 » 03 Mar 2022 13:41


ljadw
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 04 Mar 2022 15:23

About the myth of the 250000 encircled Germans in Stalingrad, the following is from WW 2 stats.com
Abwicklungsstab ,Group A
Final report from 30.9.44
Strength on 15.10.42 (including replacements until 3.2.43 )
Transported from pocket :15911 wounded/sick and 434 non-wounded
Remaining in the pocket : 158630
Total on 15 .10.42 in the pocket :174975
Not in the pocket : 156269
Not clarified : 7765
These figures do not only debunk the number of encircled,but also the claims that 100000 or more Germans were killed at Stalingrad,as most of the 158000 encircled men surrendered and as most of those who died were non combat casualties .

Globalization41
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Stalingrad

Post by Globalization41 » 04 Mar 2022 16:32

The total is still a lot. It still took two months to eliminate the pocket. Just think how long it would have taken to clear the Dunkirk pocket if the expeditionary forces had stayed in France. It would have tied up a large number of German troops. The French might have regrouped.

Globalization41.

ljadw
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 04 Mar 2022 18:41

Globalization41 wrote:
04 Mar 2022 16:32
The total is still a lot. It still took two months to eliminate the pocket.

Globalization41.
That is starting from the assumption that the main aim of the Soviets was to eliminate the pocket.My assumption is that their strategy was to go west,as far as possible .
The pocket would still surrender,because of supply problems .

Globalization41
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Stalingrad

Post by Globalization41 » 05 Mar 2022 02:31

How about eliminate by attrition?

Globalization41.

Globalization41
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Stalingrad

Post by Globalization41 » 12 Mar 2022 01:53


ljadw
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 12 Mar 2022 17:15

On 15 October 1942 there were 159000 Germans in the pocket ( not including LW,Romanians and Hiwi ) + 16000 who were evacuated .
From these 159000 91000 surrendered at the end + an unknown number during the siege ;100000 PWs would not be unplausible .
This means a number of 59000 who died during the siege (10 weeks ).The Abwicklungsstab Stalingrad had the names of 11000 of them .
But,almost nothing is known about the cause of death of these 59000 soldiers .For an unknown number it was combat losses, but for the majority of them it was Non Combat Losses ,because of the supply problems which were NOT the fault of the LW and Goering,whatever have told the army lobbyists and is still told by the army lobby .
We also do not have information about the Soviet losses during the siege and about the strength of the forces committed during the siege .
Whatever, if on a total of 159000 men,only 25000 were KIA/DOW during a siege of 10 weeks,this indicates that there was not that much fighting during these 70 days .

Globalization41
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Stalingrad

Post by Globalization41 » 13 Mar 2022 15:57


ljadw
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 13 Mar 2022 20:30

Of course Goebbels would say it was 47000 and not 16000; 47000 was better for morale .
OTOH,it is possible that the army didn't know the real number and invented a high number .

Globalization41
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Stalingrad

Post by Globalization41 » 14 Mar 2022 22:07


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