No one said it was a German dialect.
Dutch has always been classified as Germanic language.
No one said it was a German dialect.
They didn't need to fight on the German side in 1870. In case you have forgotten, the Prussians excluded the Austrians from German affairs in 1866.ljadw wrote: ↑30 Apr 2022 15:46The facts prove that what you call Austrians ( which did not exist ) did not consider themselves as Germans : they did not fight on the German side in 1870, they did not ask for an Anschluss .If they considered themselves to be Germans, they would be a part of Germany,they would live in Germany . They did not .The ''Austrian '' socialists became nationalists and socialists ONLY at the end of the war .
http://countrystudies.us/austria/61.htmThe absence of an Austrian national identity was one of the problems confronted when Austria became a country in November 1918. Before 1918 there had been no tradition among German-speaking Austrians of striving for national independence as a small German-speaking state separated from Austria-Hungary or separated from Germany. Within the context of the multiethnic and multilinguistic empire, the great majority of the inhabitants of what was to become Austria considered themselves "Germans" insofar as they spoke German and identified with German culture.
You're confusing nationality and ethnicity.Ethnicity means nothing ,as you are the only who can decide who you are: German French, etc . Not the government .
The map of Austria-Germany is a German map and thus totally unreliable .
They didn't need to ask for an Anschluss to consider themselves Germans. Many Bavarians wish for Bavaria to be independent, but the Bavarians are still Germans.ljadw wrote: ↑01 May 2022 13:01If the Austrians were Germans before 1918, they would have demanded and have got an Anschluss ,but they did not demand it before 1918, which means that they were not German before 1918 .
That the Allies forbade the Anschluss is irrelevant for the pre war period .
Today 's Austrians do not consider themselves as Germans .They mostly dislike the Germans .
They claimed to be ''German'' between 1918 and 1945 ,but not before 1918 and not after 1945 .
That the Habsburgers were Germans is also not correct : Franz Jozef did not ask for an Anschluss . The Habsburgers and German ( and Slavic ) nationalism were irreconcilable enemies : the Habsburgers ruled over a multinational empire where only 23 % of the population claimed to speak German ( the real figures is probably much less ) and as thus the Habsburgers had to be hostile to every form of nationalism .
Franz Grillparzer after the unification of Germany:... I believe I am capable of bringing honor to any court—and if Germany, my beloved Fatherland, of which, as you know, I am proud, will not take me up—well, let France or England, in God's name become the richer by another talented German—and that to the disgrace of the German nation!
Franz Joseph during WW1:I was born a German, am I still one? Only what I wrote in German, nobody takes that from me.
I am a German Prince.
And you forget to add that after 1866 the Habsburgers refused to be involved in German affairs ,because their involvement was impossible ,as they ruled over a majority non German state .George L Gregory wrote: ↑01 May 2022 14:11They didn't need to fight on the German side in 1870. In case you have forgotten, the Prussians excluded the Austrians from German affairs in 1866.ljadw wrote: ↑30 Apr 2022 15:46The facts prove that what you call Austrians ( which did not exist ) did not consider themselves as Germans : they did not fight on the German side in 1870, they did not ask for an Anschluss .If they considered themselves to be Germans, they would be a part of Germany,they would live in Germany . They did not .The ''Austrian '' socialists became nationalists and socialists ONLY at the end of the war .
http://countrystudies.us/austria/61.htm
You said that Austrians didn’t consider themselves to be Germans prior to 1918 and I gave you three examples of Austrians evidently considering themselves to be Germans prior to 1918 and the best you could do was go on a long tirade of piffle.ljadw wrote: ↑01 May 2022 15:41What Franz Joseph said during WW 1 is irrelevant, or do you think that during WW1,he would have said : I am not a German Prince . Reality is that Franz Joseph was the ''ruler '' (with limited power ) of a state with a population that was in majority non German .
And about the Bavarians : what they wish today ( and it is not secession from Germany ) is irrelevant for what they wished 100 years ago : in 1923 von Kahr and his allies planned a coup with as motto :Loss von Berlin,this coup failed because Hitler started an other coup with as motto : Nach Berlin .
In 1866 the Bavarians refused a unified German state and fought on the side of Austria ,as did the Hanoverians . They became a part of the wrongly called German Empire in 1871 only because there was no alternative :they could not become a part of the empire of the Habsburgers and they could not survive on their own,independently from the new German state .They followed the maxim of ,was it McMillan? ,who said : if you can't beat them, join them .
About Mozart : there were in 1806 1800 independent ''German states '',thus what he said about his German fatherland was about something that did not exist .He lived in the archdiocese of Salzburg,one of the 1800 members of the Holy Roman Empire .
About Grillparzer : when he was born in 1791, there was no such thing as a German state.
And, about Bavaria : while outside Bavaria ( and Baden ) every year the Sedantag ( 2 September ) was celebrated enthusiastically, there was not much enthusiasm in Bavaria on 2 September .
This is an indication that a big part of the Bavarian population accepted the unification unwillingly .
After 1866 the Austrians had no more to do with German affairs because they lost in the German war and Germany’s politics were all ruled by the Prussians.ljadw wrote: ↑01 May 2022 15:59And you forget to add that after 1866 the Habsburgers refused to be involved in German affairs ,because their involvement was impossible ,as they ruled over a majority non German state .
And before 1866 and after 1806 when the Holy Roman Empire which existed only in the imagination of writers who considered themselves as historians,disappeared,the activities of the Habsburgers were mainly concentrated on the problems of their own state, which risked to disappear also ,and not on what was happening outside their borders where they had no authority .
I advise you very strongly never to tell such things in Wallonia and Flanders .DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑28 Apr 2022 23:15
Yes. Belgium is divided between french people in Wallonie and germanic/hollandese people in Flanders.
Your Holy Roman Empire was only a collection of 1800 (yes : 1800 ! ) independent states, who continually fought against each other ,and the president of this collection had no power outside his own state .George L Gregory wrote: ↑01 May 2022 16:48After 1866 the Austrians had no more to do with German affairs because they lost in the German war and Germany’s politics were all ruled by the Prussians.ljadw wrote: ↑01 May 2022 15:59And you forget to add that after 1866 the Habsburgers refused to be involved in German affairs ,because their involvement was impossible ,as they ruled over a majority non German state .
And before 1866 and after 1806 when the Holy Roman Empire which existed only in the imagination of writers who considered themselves as historians,disappeared,the activities of the Habsburgers were mainly concentrated on the problems of their own state, which risked to disappear also ,and not on what was happening outside their borders where they had no authority .
It’s common knowledge that the Austrians weren’t willing to let go of their non-German territories.
You’re contradicting yourself again.
Putting aside for one moment your obsession with the non-German lands, what were the people that inhabited the German lands called?
It’s absolutely ridiculous for you to claim that Austrians or Österreichers didn’t exist prior to 1918. So what were the German-speaking people in Austria called?
Hold on a moment, so you don’t think the Holy Roman Empire even existed?If so, there is no point in engaging with you anymore because you just seem to be accepting things that suit your narrative and deny/ignore/dismiss any thing that contradicts your claims.
So far, your claims are:
Austrians didn’t exist prior to 1918 which is wrong.
Austrians only called themselves Germans after 1918 which is wrong.
The Holy Roman Empire only existed in the minds of historians which is wrong.
Etc, etc.
Stop peddling your nonsense.
“Your”???ljadw wrote: ↑01 May 2022 16:57Your Holy Roman Empire was only a collection of 1800 (yes : 1800 ! ) independent states, who continually fought against each other ,and the president of this collection had no power outside his own state .
Your Holy Roman Empire had no government, no army , ...
It existed only on paper and no one took any notion of it .
Mozart was not a citizen of the state of the Habsburgers but a citizen of Salzburg which was an independent state .And he was not an Austrian .George L Gregory wrote: ↑01 May 2022 16:40You said that Austrians didn’t consider themselves to be Germans prior to 1918 and I gave you three examples of Austrians evidently considering themselves to be Germans prior to 1918 and the best you could do was go on a long tirade of piffle.ljadw wrote: ↑01 May 2022 15:41What Franz Joseph said during WW 1 is irrelevant, or do you think that during WW1,he would have said : I am not a German Prince . Reality is that Franz Joseph was the ''ruler '' (with limited power ) of a state with a population that was in majority non German .
And about the Bavarians : what they wish today ( and it is not secession from Germany ) is irrelevant for what they wished 100 years ago : in 1923 von Kahr and his allies planned a coup with as motto :Loss von Berlin,this coup failed because Hitler started an other coup with as motto : Nach Berlin .
In 1866 the Bavarians refused a unified German state and fought on the side of Austria ,as did the Hanoverians . They became a part of the wrongly called German Empire in 1871 only because there was no alternative :they could not become a part of the empire of the Habsburgers and they could not survive on their own,independently from the new German state .They followed the maxim of ,was it McMillan? ,who said : if you can't beat them, join them .
About Mozart : there were in 1806 1800 independent ''German states '',thus what he said about his German fatherland was about something that did not exist .He lived in the archdiocese of Salzburg,one of the 1800 members of the Holy Roman Empire .
About Grillparzer : when he was born in 1791, there was no such thing as a German state.
And, about Bavaria : while outside Bavaria ( and Baden ) every year the Sedantag ( 2 September ) was celebrated enthusiastically, there was not much enthusiasm in Bavaria on 2 September .
This is an indication that a big part of the Bavarian population accepted the unification unwillingly .
Pathetic.
That’s because Austria didn’t exist as a nation-state.