Ironmachine wrote:if the solution was exploiting even more other countries, one should consider that Germany could simply exploit Spain instead of helping it
Because they needed Spain as an ally, obviously. Of course, they could have also invaded Spain in 1940 (why not? The german army was enormous and the spanish army was meaningless). But the choice was Spain as an ally (in order to get Gibraltar). So the exploited would be others, not the Axis members...
They didn't need Spain as an ally. They only needed to go through Spain to reach Gibraltar, and that could be done either by having an allied Spain or just invading it. The only difference would be some more time needed and some more losses in the case of an invasion, and the Spanish Army, Navy and Air Force not joining the Axis war effort, nothing really important. Anything else that Spain could provide could also be obtained from a defeated and conquered Spain, more and more easily in fact than with Franco in power, and the Germans would have had no need to care for the population of Spain.
An allied Spain was no needed for getting Gibraltar. It made the whole affair somewhat easier, just that. And Axis members were exploited by the Germans. Certainly not as much as conquered countries, but there was never any doubt about who made the final decisions.
Counter wrote:Boring: again the same. You have no proof about the help would have been not enough.
And you have no proof that the help would have been enough. So what.
And enough for what? Winning the war? Being defeated but still with a population not significantly different from 1940? Starving to death and being defeated?
Ironmachine wrote:I have the proof the British were scared of the germans could convince the spanish to join the Axis and british ambassador sir Samuel Hoare was urging London to allocate every "Navicert" for the cargo ships to transport the grain (because the grain was the capital issue) across the Atlantic for Spain.
The British should be scared of the Germans convincing the Spaniards to join the Axis. Why not? That doesn't mean that the Spaniards joining the Axis would mean a British defeat, which is what you seem to imply when you posted "That was the right strategy they missed".
Ambassador Samuel Hoare was urging London to allocate every "Navicert" for the cargo ships to transport the grain. Did London agree?
The grain was not the capital issued, just one of the problems. If the grain was the capital issue, why did the Allies twice imposed restrictions on oil when later they wanted to pressure Spain against cooperation with Germany but did not restrict grain imports?
Counter wrote:He never wrote to London: "don´t care about Spain joining the Axis, because the Germans could never afford to send grain enough to Spain". And I believe mr Hoare, and not you, Ironmachine.
We could discuss Mr. Hoare expertise on warfare, logistics, economics, strategy, and the like, but there's is really no point in doing it. If you believe Mr. Hoare, that's your problem. We could also discuss why you believe Mr. Hoare and but do not believe German experts when they say Germany could not provide what Spain asked for, but there is also no point in doing it. If you are in the realm of "believing", that's a problem of faith; I like to work with reason.
Ironmachine wrote:Germany and Spain could, for example, sign a secret protocol to transfer those territories to Spanish control after the end of the war, when a victorious Germany would have no problem forcing Italy, France and anyone else to accept the fait accompli
That was exactly what Franco was asking to Hitler desperately in November 1940, and that was not conceded.
If you mean that in November 1940 Franco was asking for a secret protocol like the one I mentioned, prove it.
If you mean that in November 1940 Franco was asking for the transfer of those territories and it was not conceded, that'a a partial truth. Franco, as I have already told you, was asking for territories, supplies and military equipment, and nothing was conceded.
Anyway, in November 1940 Franco was certainly not asking Hitler "desperately" for anything, as the Hendaya conference of October had shown.
Counter wrote:The germans feared -reasonably- that that "secret" would be disclosed anyway. Hitler was more interested in keeping a good relationship with the French.
That's Hitler's problem, not Franco's.
Counter wrote:I presume that in November 1940, with "Barbarrosa" already decided Hitler losed interest in the Gibraltar operation. At least, not to risk the "colaboration" with the French. That is what I read in not-Francoist historians dealing on the issue.
Maybe, that idea can be found even in "pro-Francoist" historians dealing on the issue. But that's not the problem here. The really important point is when did Franco lost interest in joining the war.
Counter wrote:A "Francoist historian" is not only a person -which profession is to be historian- that has a particular ideology, but also a propagandist writing tendentious and false arguments to cover up some aspects of the reality, ignoring data, adding supositions in the place of facts and so on...
No, that's only your opinion. Writing tendentious or false arguments to cover up some aspects of the reality, ignoring data, adding supositions in the place of facts and so on is just what a bad historian (even if that person really does not deserve being called "historian") does. A certain political bias is not characteristic of that attitude. The actions that you describe can be found in both pro- and anti-Francoist historial studies.
In the case of the Francoist legend (like the very similar Petainist legend) they write that Franco only pretended to join the Axis butactually never wanted to do it because he was very smart -he knew the Axis was going to lose- and very compassionate -he didn´t want his people to starve-.
Just to make clear to you (once more, as it seems you are unable to understand it) what I think about this particular point:
1. I don't think that Franco never wanted to join the Axis. I do think he did not want to do it for free, and I don't think he was particularly interested in doing it in 1940, with Britain not really on the verge of defeat.
2. I don't think he knew the Axis was going to lose, but I do think that he had doubts about Germany's ability to defeat Great Britain.
3. I don't think him being compassionate was a factor here, but I do think he didn't want his people to starve because there is no advantage in ruling over corpses and because starving people may have the idea of fighting against the ruler who is making them starve.
Let's be clear, Franco was far from being the smartest person in the room , but he was not the most stupid person ever born either. One of his main traits, recognized by friends and foes alike, was cautiousness: he never made a decision in haste. In 1940, he could see how bad was the situation in Spain and what were the forces (and friends) available to Germany and Great Britain.
As I wrote in a previous post, those anti-Francoist historians that you seem to cherish so much and you yourself have a basic logical problem. They seem to think that because Franco was a Fascist (sic) and because he was (as we say in Spanish) a "cabrón con pintas", he must have been dying to join the Axis. But there is a single fact that they can not deny: he did not join the Axis. How can you reconcile your ideas with that simple fact?
Well, it may be that Hitler was not interested in Spain joining the Axis. This may have been true by the very end of 1940, after the Hendaya conferece, but it couldn't be before that period, when as we know Hitler was actually pressuring Franco to join the Axis. So before that date, it must have Franco who did not want to join the Axis. There is simply no other option.
Now, I have little doubt that Franco would have joined the Axis as soon as he saw fit. I don't really know if his motivation for not joining the war in 1940 was the "not for free" or the "not in these circunstances" or a combination of both or another, different one. And we can still argue if Franco was ready to join the war as soon as his requirements (colonial territories, supplies and weapons) were fullfiled, or if he made those requirements knowing that Hitler could not satisfy them, or if Franco was ready to ask for more if his first demands were satisfied... All of this is questionable, and as Franco had the final word and he was a very reserved person, we may never know his reasons. But we do know that he did what he wanted, and what he did was not joining the Axis.