Counter wrote:This is the last thing I am going to write about your insults. Any HONEST person can see that I didn´t lie by understanding that the "document of the economic experts" (page 6 this thread)refers to the spanish demands (among others) of grain (around 50,000 tons of grain monthly, to explain it clearly, as it is well known). It didn´t mention quantity but it did mention the spanish demands (that we know were of that quantity).
The problems is that your never said it was your understanding. You wrote:
According to your document (page 6 this thread) -that is more important- Hitler would starve Spain anyway because there was a material impossibility of sending to Spain the 50,000 tons of grain monthly (600,000 per year).
and not "according to my understanding of your [sic] document". The document only says that its author believed based on the data available it was impossible to satisfy the Spanish demands.
Counter wrote:So enough, you are a liar, as writing I am a liar and so on. You are insulting, you are boring everybody and that is of no use for anyone reading these threads in order to learn something...
Nice of you to speak for everyone. That you believe that your opinion represents the opinion of everybody says a lot about you...
Counter wrote:Let´s try to save something from this disaster due to the peculiarities of the Ironmachine character...
Thanks for the effort! When you're done, please try to save something from the disaster caused by your arrogance and ignorance .
Counter wrote:Obviously, if Germany wants Spain to be a workable ally, Spain would need some vital demands (also economical) satisfied.
First, obviously, if Germany wants Spain to be a workable ally, Spain would need all its vital demands satisfied. There are vital for some reason, after all.
Second, and much more important, again you fail to understand that what Germany wants means very little. Whar really matters is what Spain wants and what the Germans can do.
In fact, if Germany wants Spain to be an ally (workable or not), Spain would need all
its demands, vital or not, satisfied, because what other reasond could Spain have to enter the war peacefully?
Counter wrote:And obviously, as long as the alliance is working there would be negotiations over the initial negotiations and complains about what needs are right satisfied or not.
And you again forget that for Spain to agree to enter the war the negotiations would have had to be concluded and the initial demands (those shown in this thread) would have had to be already satisfied. In other, simpler words so that you may understand it, Spain is not going to join the Axis simply because Hitler promises to send 700,000 tons of grain and 70,000 tons of oil and etc, but (perhaps) because those 700,000 tons of grain and 70,000 tons of oil and etc. are already in Spain.
Counter wrote:With Italy that happened constantly.
Yes, that happened constantly once they were at war against the Allies. I'm sure it would have happened also with Spain after
joining the fight, and then Spain would have been forced to accept German impositions. But for as long as Spain is still neutral, the negotiations could only be concluded as and when Spain want to.
Counter wrote:Obviously, Spain, as an ally can not starve.
Strawman argument. Saying that for Spain to be a valuable ally she should not starve is not the same in any way that saying that Spain as an ally is not going to starve.
Counter wrote:Obviously, the spanish army should be of any use (although it was not important for the Germans) and would get something, or little, or much fewer arms than asked (the "Blue Division" is an example).
The Blue Division was a German division of the German Army, so in fact it is actually an example of Spain providing men to Germany, not of Germany providing weapons to Spain.
It is pretty obvious that Spain could get something, or little, or much fewer arms than asked, in fact it could get nothing at all. That's still failing to answer the vital question: why would Spain join the Axis if she doesn't get everything she asked for?
Counter wrote:Obviously, Franco could not know exactly what he is going to get exactly for Spain about supplies.
Obviously, Franco could know exactly how much of anything had actually been received in Spain abefore he enters the war. After that, his future is actually in Hitler's hand, which if anything could have been another reason for not entering the war.
Counter wrote:Even if Germany promises some quantities, maybe later those could not be provided in the right time or in the right quality and so on.
Indeed. And everybody in Spain should have been aware of that. That paints a bleak future for Spain in a war that was far from won by the Axis. So why would Spain join them?
Counter wrote:What changes everything is the question of the colonial territories (the political price for Spain to join the Axis).
That only changes everything in your mind, that is, in La La Land.
Counter wrote:Either they get those territories or they don´t.
Either they get those territories, or some of them, or they dont't. Either they get that military equipment, or some of it, or none. Either they get those supplies, or some of them, or nothing. Yes, it has been repeated ad nauseam in this thread and means nothing.
Counter wrote:If -as it seemed to be- the problem was the status of France as a collaborative european nation for the Axis, Spain joining the Axis could not have meant that the French would be stripped of some of its most valuable colonies, as the whole Morocco and the Oran region, for example. That can only be decided in advance, as down payment. The most pronazi spanish authorities expected that, anyway, at the end of the war, once demonstrated the spanish bravery, Spain would be rewarded. Franco was cautious and not satisfied with vague promises.
As Franco had the last word on the matter of Spain joining the Axis, that's another argument for Spain not joining the Axis peacefully.
Ironmachine wrote:The document plainly states that, even if those important German interests are st aside, "certain deliveries might be conceivable, but on a scale which would not by a long way approach the Spanish requests." How can you think that means "supplying grain in the quantities aked for by Spain was possible, if hardly" is beyond my understanding
Because, obviously, the document is vague due to the expression "German general interests". I presume that you understand that even the grain -Spain starving or not starving- is affected by the expression "on a scale wihich would not by a long way approach the Spanish requests". But we don´t know how the spanish requests were redacted.
It's not that I think that even the grain is affected by that expression, it's that it is indeed affected by it. The document is not vague, your mind may be. The exact quote of the document is:
Moreover, fertilizers, mineral, oil, grain, trucks, and railroad cars cannot be delivered without setting aside important German interests. If by top-level decision Germany's own requirements for the last-named goods could be deferred to some extent, certain deliveries might be conceivable, but on a scale which would not by a long way approach the Spanish requests and which, because of the transportation difficulties, could furthermore not be brough to Spain in the time requested in the memorandum.
Are you seriously saying that in that text the "last-named goods" part refers only to trucks and railroad cars?
In the letter from Hitler to Franco https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Adolf_Hi
... uary_1941), he is offering to Spain 100,000 tons of grain that would arrive to Spain inmediately... and to that offer Hitler didn´t wait for the document of the experts.
Again lying, or at least creatively editing Hitler's words. What Hitler actually wrote in that letter was:
Furthermore, Germany has declared herself prepared to replace the 100,000 tons of grain which was waiting in Portugal destined for Switzerland in order that it might benefit Spain immediately. This of course remains contingent upon the final decision for Spain's entry into the war.
So Hitler is just making a promise to replace (for Switzerland?) 100,000 tons of grain that at that very moment were neither in Germany nor in Spain so that perhaps they will end in Spain (who knows?) as soon as Spain agrees to enter the war, so that there is turning back. Translated into plain English, Hitler is making promises redeemable, perhaps or perhaps not, for much less grain than Spain wanted if and only if Spain enters the war. No need to wait for the document of any expert for that!
Counter wrote:Obviously, you are ready to provide maybe 100,000 tons right now (as Hitler did in his letter previous to the "document of the experts"), but not 600,000 tons that could have to wait for later (supposedly along the months passing by).
Obviously, Spain has no need to join the Axis so just wait to see the effect that promising to send 100,000 tons not right now but after entering the war and some grain more, quantity unknown, later is going to have in the Spanish authorities.
Wait, we already know the effect that had! Spain did not join the Axis! Surprise, surprise!
Counter wrote:You already know that Germany was in early 1941 in a foodstuff situation good enough to provide what Spain required not to starve.
No, I don't know that. It is just a claim you made, without showing any evidence for it.
Your fantastic claim that Germany would starve Spain, being Spain an ally and existing enough grain in the nazi Europe to prevent it, that is what you need to prove.
No, I don't need to prove anything, because that was never my point. My point was that Germany could not provide what Spain asked for, which is something German authorities at the time agreed with, and that in that case Spain would have not joined the Axis peacefully, which is exactly what happened in OTL.
It was you who began by claiming that Spain had inflated her demands and that her real needs could be satisfied by Germany, then you changed and began to say that the Spanish demands on grain were more or less their real needs but that still Germany could have provided enough grain for Spain not to starve, while conveniently forgetting all the other material demands and giving us some surprising interpretations of the (quite evident) meaning of the German documents cited in this thread.
Do you want proofs? Begin by showing one.
About the rest of the things (all the goods that Spain requested), some spanish requests would have been satisfied, others maybe later, others maybe not in the way Spain would have liked it and so on. It is ridiculous to pretend that Germany could have given any security to Spain about any non vital issue in the middle of a war...
What is truly ridiculous is your belief that Spain would have joined the Axis in 1940 peacefully while her requests have not been satisfied.
Could be a lot of fun if you post here the absolute minimum that you believe Franco was ready to accept to enter the war on the Axis side.
Ironmachine wrote:can you tell me what did Mussolini demanded from Hitler as a sine qua non( and Hitler failed to provide) prior to advancing into southern France, invading British Somaliland or attacking Greece?
I have no idea and although the subject is interesting, for the moment I don´t care
If you don't care, then stop talking about what happened with Italy and using it as a model of what could have happened with Spain.
Counter wrote:I do know that Mussolini got very few things after attacking France (poor booty) and that he didn´t expect the war to last long time. Even so, Germany fulfilled the basic demands of Itally, as oil and coal (in a long war). Because Italy was an ally, even if Italy, for example, invaded Greece without warning Germany. Anyway, other european countries, like Bulgaria or Romania, got their little pieces of territories in the Balkans as the price of cooperating with the nazis.
It seems now that you care again. Not that any of that has any value as a reference for the Spanish case.
Ironmachine wrote:Spain did not only need grain, but also meat, minerals. oil, lubricants, weapons, cotton and many other goods. Those things were needs. The colonial territories were a desire. Do you know the difference?
This is extremely ridiculous. If what Spain wanted was grain, cotton, meat... Why to negotiate to entry the war?
What is extremely ridiculous is you lack of reasoning. Nobody has ever proved that Spain (i.e. Franco) really wanted to entry the war, certainly not in the 1940 of OTL.
So what if the Spanish authorities were just letting time pass, without angering Hitler too much, until the situation solved itself? That is certainly a possible explanation of what happened in 1940-1941, even if you are unable to acknowledge it.
Or perhaps they really wanted to go to war, but hey it was not a question of going to war with a wholly unprepared army and without food or oil for your people. You go to war when you are ready for it and to gain something. Not ready and nothing to gain, no war unless forced to it. So again, do you really need to ask why they were negotating?
Counter wrote:Why to negotiate to entry the war? As keeping neutral, British were providing all that (even bribes for spanish generals, by the way).
The British were allowing others to provide more than providing, but that's really changes nothing. Nor that those famous bribes for Spanish generals (that nobody, AFAIK, has proved they received, and no, before you run to write without understanding what I actually wrote, I'm not saying that the British did not pay money for bribing Spanish generals, I'm saying that nobody has shown AFAIK any evidence that they received that money; with Juan March taking part in the affair is would be hardly surprising if they didn't) would have made much difference if other circunstances changed.
The important point here is the evident one: as soon as Spain joins the Axis, those supply lines are going to be cut dry. So why are you so surprised that if Spain really wanted to enter the war she should negotiate all that?
Counter wrote:Obviously, if Spain wanted to join Axis was because Spain wanted to participate in the imperialist nazi-fascist feast of Hitler...
If Spain really wanted to enter the war, something that has never been proved, then it would have been to obtain some gains, and of course those gains would have been mainly territories. That's pretty obvious; IRC, even the British made some vague unofficial "promises" about Gibraltar to entice Franco. The imperialist part is right. Who know, with the right assurances, the right rewards and the right conditions, he may have even joined the Allies.
Counter wrote:the sending foodstuff (...) was the capital issue (that is what every historian dealing with this question wrote about).
Ironmachine wrote:for what every historian wrote about, I don't need all of them but please post here just what ten of them say about that question. And please, include the exact quote and not your interpretation of their words, because we already know how "flexible" you are interpretating statements when it suits you.
Ridiculous. No, I won´t waste more time with your "peculiarities", Ironmachine, as I already did by posting the average rations of Germany in 1941, a datum you already knew (didn´t you?). You try to find a historian referring to meat, cotton or fertilizer as a vital issue for Spain to join Axis.
No, I didn't know by heart the average rations of Germany in 1941. And no, I will not try to find a historian referring to meat, cotton or fertilizer as a vital issue for Spain to join Axis bacause it was you who wrote:
Counter wrote: But the sending foodstuff was realizable and was the capital issue (that is what every historian dealing with this question wrote about)
You make the claim, the burden of proof is on you. That's how it works, though I am not surprised that you don't know that.