The end of tanks as we know it?

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wm
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#151

Post by wm » 22 May 2022, 13:32


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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#152

Post by Cult Icon » 27 May 2022, 05:52

The Russians brought in the BMPT Terminator to the Donbass recently. Quite odd as they could have used these tank support vehicles three months ago! This is supposed to be a superior anti-infantry vehicle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqHPOeW4Wn4


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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#153

Post by PunctuationHorror » 27 May 2022, 12:29

Yes, quite odd. Is it known how many of these BMPTs are fielded? Out of how many available?

Its survivability against ATGMs is higher compared to the usual BMT, BMD, BTR and other types which are one hit toast. In urban areas, heavily infested with ATGM teams waiting widely dispersed on the roofs/upper floors of several multistorey bulidings and swift moving to other locations they will probably fare as good as tanks. This will result in many destroyed verhicles but fewer crew losses. In combination with systematic use of artillery these vehicles provide probably the most personnel friendly tactic available. Add anti air systems, gun based?, against malicious birds aka drones and they'll have a good allround solution.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#154

Post by Cult Icon » 27 May 2022, 22:42

PunctuationHorror wrote:
27 May 2022, 12:29
Yes, quite odd. Is it known how many of these BMPTs are fielded? Out of how many available?
I do not know. Videos of BMPT have surfaced from the ukraine moving around, and one in a firing line. If wiki is accurate this is not new technology and there are 300 units. The Russians/DRP separatists fought the battle of Mariupol with T-64 and T-72. The Russians have favored extreme use of firepower for urban warfare over use of armor/inf. The below video has KA-52 Ground attack helicopters, SU-25 Ground attack fighters, and BMPT in action :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMPT_Terminator

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzDPVBAFFt0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwBgqianGeI

Russians have created a documentary film about the city they destroyed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPLxoVhSOsw&t=68s

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#155

Post by John Hilly » 29 May 2022, 14:47

Nothing new as in itself buot worth reading...

https://theprint.in/opinion/tanks-will- ... ne/973703/
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#156

Post by Cult Icon » 06 Jun 2022, 05:09

A large number of T-62M tanks has been spotted moving around in the Ukraine for days now. It is likely that these obsolete tanks are being delivered to the DRP militas (who have been using T-72, T-64 and captured Ukrainian tanks) to be used as assault guns for urban combat.

https://twitter.com/rhoint_en/status/15 ... 2Fpage-221

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#157

Post by Cult Icon » 06 Jun 2022, 05:32

BMPT reported to be in the Severondonesk area, it will likely be used against the Ukrainian infantry masses defending the twin cities. UK Defense ministry claims that there are 10.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... a/bmpt.htm

https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/15 ... eshow.html

BMPT column

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCMIFbreaj0

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1525 ... wsrc%5Etfw

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#158

Post by Cult Icon » 06 Jun 2022, 15:26

Besides BMPT, given prior Russian tactics in cities they will likely bring in Thermobarbaric MLRS and UR-77 engineering vehicles to support the armor used in the assault-gun role.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bge7BvUmD_4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5ObduzHHO8

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#159

Post by ewest89 » 06 Jun 2022, 19:04

The use of tanks depends on the country involved. If their defense equipment is primitive then deploying tanks makes sense. If it is close to equal then tank threats need to be neutralized first. Too much is made of drones.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#160

Post by ljadw » 06 Jun 2022, 20:29

Tanks are useful when the opponent has /uses tanks . If not (as in Afghanistan ) they are only a wast.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#161

Post by Gooner1 » 07 Jun 2022, 17:06

I don't think the era of tanks is over. What is crucial, as always, is how they are used, the training, experience and morale of the crews, the quality of the tanks themselves and how many can be brought to the fight.

Image

Image

Can see them playing a decisive role in Ukraine

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#162

Post by Cult Icon » 08 Jun 2022, 16:23

BMPT supporting tank movements in exercises
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwH_GpbfKHs

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#163

Post by Cult Icon » 18 Jun 2022, 13:32

Brig. Gen. Volodymyr Karpenko, Ukraine's land forces command logistics commander:

"So, we have lost approximately 50 percent. … Approximately 1,300 infantry fighting vehicles have been lost, 400 tanks, 700 artillery systems."

https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org ... on-weapons
https://thepressunited.com/updates/kiev ... ns-losses/

Russian MOD claims as of 6/18 are 3613 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, which makes the Russians overclaim claimed Ukrainian losses by 1,900 units. (1700 tanks and IFV lost)

As expected, the Oryx blog under counts claimed Ukrainian losses by 306 tanks, 1,100 IFV/APC, 603 Artillery systems.

I think the tactical environment right now suggests that the concept of rapid operational maneuver with massed tanks, like in WW2 is highly problematic. Artillery, Airpower, and missiles are the most potent weapons for inflicting losses. Tanks are now more akin to infantry support weapons and have to be used carefully. What you see right now with the Russians is the use of exponentially superior firepower to slowly attrit Ukrainian formations on a daily basis supplemented with small advances, leading to a glacial but consistent territorial gain.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#164

Post by lartiste » 20 Jun 2022, 00:28

Cult Icon wrote:
18 Jun 2022, 13:32
Brig. Gen. Volodymyr Karpenko, Ukraine's land forces command logistics commander:

"So, we have lost approximately 50 percent. … Approximately 1,300 infantry fighting vehicles have been lost, 400 tanks, 700 artillery systems."

https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org ... on-weapons
https://thepressunited.com/updates/kiev ... ns-losses/

Russian MOD claims as of 6/18 are 3613 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, which makes the Russians overclaim claimed Ukrainian losses by 1,900 units. (1700 tanks and IFV lost)

As expected, the Oryx blog under counts claimed Ukrainian losses by 306 tanks, 1,100 IFV/APC, 603 Artillery systems.

I think the tactical environment right now suggests that the concept of rapid operational maneuver with massed tanks, like in WW2 is highly problematic. Artillery, Airpower, and missiles are the most potent weapons for inflicting losses. Tanks are now more akin to infantry support weapons and have to be used carefully. What you see right now with the Russians is the use of exponentially superior firepower to slowly attrit Ukrainian formations on a daily basis supplemented with small advances, leading to a glacial but consistent territorial gain.
I disagree with your point. The basic argument is, that until now, we have not seen proper use of tanks on Russian side. They are trying to use the tanks, but they are far from rational use of tanks. At first I would like to point out the lack of any kind of security of tank units.

Example:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1518889360581697538

As you can see, usual russian modus operandi, all guns straight forward, no one is covering flanks, no drone or helicopter. I have seen hundreds of such videos and photos, when attacked from flanks, it is turkey shooting. Just compare it with this photo from Vietnam:
f32.jpeg
Tanks, even massed might be used, but first of all they need proper recon tools (drones, even equipped with thermovision), cover tools - helicopters or planes of close support, infantry and must be deployed reasonably and properly. We will see whether UA army will be able to perform any better in offensives.

My point is tank is still great tool, but need to be used properly with necessary support.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#165

Post by ljadw » 20 Jun 2022, 19:44

And when these recon tools are not available ?
Don't forget that Russia attacked with a tiny manpower and as substitution, they used a lot of fire power .

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