MacArthur dies 1938

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: MacArthur dies 1938

#16

Post by T. A. Gardner » 16 Jul 2022, 22:56

Back to the thread. By mid 1941, there were two aviation engineer battalions (called "detachments" at the time but roughly equivalent), the 803rd and 809th, in the Philippines. They were sufficiently mechanized, even in 1941, to build concrete runways and other infrastructure for an air base within a month or two. When assisted by local contractors and workers, they had the means to improve USAAC bases in the Philippines well before Japan attacked.
While they stayed busy, they also ran on a peacetime schedule. Materials for construction--as far as I can tell--wasn't an issue. There was plenty of cement, lumber, and other building supplies available from manufacturers in the Philippines already.

The biggest drawbacks to a successful US defense of the Philippines were:

The wait until into 1941 to really start building a defense infrastructure and build up of forces. Had this happened in say, mid 1940 instead, the extra time would have had the Philippines in a far better position to defend itself.

The command structure failed to go to a more wartime urgency with preparations.

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Re: MacArthur dies 1938

#17

Post by paulrward » 17 Jul 2022, 01:09

Hello All ;

Thank you, Mr. Gardner. That is very helpful. As you are certainly aware from your career, the first
step carrying out any project is to have the project budgeted, especially if it is a large construction
project. Money has to be allocated, equipment purchased, materials purchased, labor contracted for,
and it all takes MONEY !

As the man said in ' The Right Stuff ', " NO BUCKS, NO BUCK ROGERS ! "

If you go back and read MacArthur's and Eisenhower's accounts of their time in the Philippines in
the middle and late 1930s, quite simply they HAD NO MONEY ! Washington decided that, since
the PI were going to be granted independance, that meant that nobody there was going to be either
a taxpayer or a voter, and so there was no reason to give them ANYTHING ! MacArthur couldn't even
get shoes for his new army, much less rifles, and this was while the U.S. Army was sitting on whole
warehouses of surplus rifles and equipment that could have been sent out to him.

As fighters and bombers became obsolete, they could have been sent to the PI, and used to serve
as the nucleus of a PI Air Force. They never were.

As late as 1937, when Manuel Quezon traveled to Washington, Roosevelt refused to see him. Freewheelin'
Franklin couldn't even spare a few minutes for a sit down and a Photo Shoot ! MacArthur, who had
accompanied Quezon, made such a stink that, at the last moment, they arranged a luncheon for Quezon
with the Secreataries of State and Interior, at a private hotel.

Then, suddenly, Freewheelin Franklin realized that Japan was taking over the Pacific, and that he
needed to do something about it. ( He figures this out the day after the Japanese moved into French
IndoChina ! ) and, after THE NAVY ! and Marshall told him that nothing could be done, Hap
Arnold piped up, and said, " Hey, we can threaten those mean old Japs with Flying Fortresses ! "

Suddenly, B-17s are being scraped up from all over the country, and flown out to the Pacific. There
were no runways for them, or hangers, or machine shops, or oxygen purifiers, or anything else to keep
them running, but BY GOD, Hap Arnold says that these bombers will defeat the Japs just by sitting on
the ground and looking dangerous !

The collapse of the Philippines had NOTHING to do with MacArthur, who had been crying in the Wilderness
for six long years, while Freewheelin Franklin was trying to convert the United States into a Socialist
Paradise at the same time he was chasing his mistress around the Oval Office.
The command structure failed to go to a more wartime urgency with preparations.
Right. And the guy at the top of the Command Structure was ROOSEVELT !

Had Roosevelt buried his animosity for MacArthur, and gotten the Democratic Party to push a Philippine
Defense Appropriation Act through the Congress, in say, October of 1939, then Macarthur would have
had almost two more years to prepare. With a Philippine Army trained up, armed with 200,000 modified
M1917s, a dozen batteries of French 75s, every P-26, P-35, and P-36 that could be shipped out to him,
with experienced pilots, along with Northrop A-17s and some twin engine medium bombers, like Douglass
Bostons or Martin Marylands, along with a few regiments of Stuart Tanks and some of the old 7" Navy guns
that had been converted into heavy field artillery, AND ALL THE AMMUNITION AND SUPPLIES THEY NEEDED,
MacArthur might have been able to put up a defense.


To Mr. Takao:
Wonderful! We are discussing history with IBM's lead sanitation engineer.

If you wish to brag about your education, I humbly suggest you go elsewhere.

Mr. Takao, I am proud of my education. I paid for every hour of it out of my own pocket. No scholarships,
no student loans. I wish I could have gotten more. My biggest regret after all these years is that I had
to quit after taking Ordinary Differential Equations. I would have loved to take Linear Algebra and then
Tensor Calculus. But, there just wasn't the time .......

As for my employment, no, I never worked for IBM, though on two occasions I worked AT IBM, as they were
doing business with my employers. As for what I did, for nearly 40 years, I was a Semiconductor Manufacturing
Process Engineer, specializing primarily in Photo-MicroLithography, with some occasional ventures into Chemical
and Plasma Etching, along with Thin Film deposition, both CVD and PECVD.
dpix.jpg
In the photo on the left, one of my fellow engineers is programming the MRS-Azores 6600 Flat Panel Stepper,
which created sub-micron lines and patterns on the Flat Panel X-Ray Detectors, one of which is being held
in the photo on the right by Mr. Frank Caris, President of DpiX, LLC. ( Frank is a wonderful gentleman, who
came in and almost single handedly saved the company - he is a fellow of rare intellect and dry wit. )

Each one of the four rectangles you can see on that flat panel contains about 2 million X-Ray detecting
Photo Diodes.

Mr. Takao, if you have had an X-Ray, such as a Dental X-Ray, in the past 15 years, there is a very good
chance that I was one of the Engineers responsible for supervising the technical aspects of the production
of the Flat Panel Detector that made that Digital X Ray possible.


However, Mr. Takao, IF I had been a Sanitation Engineer, right now you would be feeling somewhat flushed.....


Repectfully

Paul R. Ward
Information not shared, is information lost
Voices that are banned, are voices who cannot share information....
Discussions that are silenced, are discussions that will occur elsewhere !


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T. A. Gardner
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Re: MacArthur dies 1938

#18

Post by T. A. Gardner » 17 Jul 2022, 03:38

The biggest problem in the PI with readiness, bar none, was the lateness with which the US started to prepare there. It wasn't until well into 1941 that preparing the PI for a potential war with Japan began.

Starting about mid-1941, the US began pumping money and material into the PI big time. The US authorized at least $52 million towards improving the ability of the PI to defend against a Japanese attack. About $32 million of that went towards standing up the Philippine Army.

The problem was by the time that started to happen, there were somewhere between 6 and 8 months left until Japan declared war. Had the US started its defense buildup a year earlier, the Japanese would have been hit. They would have faced a far more ready and stronger defense in the Philippines.

As it was, the Philippine Army started with a degree of poverty. Rifles were plentiful, but just about everything else was in short supply. But the biggest problem remained the complacency of MacArthur. He believed right up to December 7th that the Japanese air forces couldn't hit the USAAC's bases in the Philippines. He was of the belief that their equipment was inferior too. He never even considered that it would be the Imperial Japanese Navy that would show up and wipe his air forces out.

Couple that with a lack of urgency on his part towards preparing the Philippines for an attack, and you get a recipe for disaster. MacArthur didn't press Washington or the US Army for anything. He thought what he had and the planning to date at every stage was sufficient to win.

The problem was mostly one of time, and MacArthur dithered that away with myopic thinking.

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Re: MacArthur dies 1938

#19

Post by ljadw » 17 Jul 2022, 10:27

I am not convinced, not convinced at all .
1 Saying that MacArthur was responsible for the loss of the Philippines is the same as saying that Yamamoto was responsible for the defeat of Midway, Percival for the loss of Singapore, Hitler for the failure of Barbarossa, Gamelin for the defeat in May 1940,Moltke for the defeat at the Marne, etc,etc
2 If MacArthur was responsible ,why was he not fired ? Stark, Kimmel , Short were fired and they were not responsible .
3 There is NO proof at all that it was possible to do what is claimed that should have been done .
4 MacArthur was appointed commander in the Philippines on July 26 1941,thus what could he have done in the 4 months before PH ?
5 There is also no proof that ,if he had done what is claimed he should have done, the result would have been different .
6 There are two parties in a war and to concentrate on A and to say that if A had acted differently B would have failed,while totally neglecting B ,is searching for excuses for the failure of A .
7 And WHY should MacArthur have acted differently ? Were there any indications on July 26 that Japan would attack the Philippines ?

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Re: MacArthur dies 1938

#20

Post by T. A. Gardner » 18 Jul 2022, 00:02

ljadw wrote:
17 Jul 2022, 10:27
I am not convinced, not convinced at all .
1 Saying that MacArthur was responsible for the loss of the Philippines is the same as saying that Yamamoto was responsible for the defeat of Midway, Percival for the loss of Singapore, Hitler for the failure of Barbarossa, Gamelin for the defeat in May 1940,Moltke for the defeat at the Marne, etc,etc
Not MacArthur alone, but he's a big part of the problem. For MacArthur, as I previously noted--and this same malaise was present in Malaysia--it was business as usual right up to Japan declaring war. That is, in both the PI and Malaysia there was no sense of urgency or alarm about things Japan was doing. MacArthur convinced himself that the timetable for a war was mid to late 1942 and that he had plenty of time to get his house in order.
Sure, others bear some responsibility for those loses, but you can clearly trace most of the issue to the top levels of command locally.
2 If MacArthur was responsible ,why was he not fired ? Stark, Kimmel , Short were fired and they were not responsible .
Because he was far more connected politically and socially than Kimmel and Short were. If anything, it was FDR and Marshall that intervened and kept him in place.
3 There is NO proof at all that it was possible to do what is claimed that should have been done .
Of course there is no proof that something that didn't happen, happened. There is plenty of evidence that more could have been done in the Philippines--or Malaya--than did.
4 MacArthur was appointed commander in the Philippines on July 26 1941,thus what could he have done in the 4 months before PH ?
MacArthur was in command of the Philippine Army and did virtually nothing to prepare it for war right up until a few months before war came. He could have done far more in that respect than he did, and could have done it far earlier than he did. The same goes once he was recalled to service. He could have decided US forces would be on a more 'war' footing and made preparations based on that rather than on business as usual which he did.
5 There is also no proof that ,if he had done what is claimed he should have done, the result would have been different .
Another trying to argue proof of a negative. There is evidence that if he'd put more effort into raising the Philippine Army earlier than he did, and then paid more attention and took the possibility of a Japanese invasion far more seriously, he could have done more to check or slow the Japanese in the Philippines.
6 There are two parties in a war and to concentrate on A and to say that if A had acted differently B would have failed,while totally neglecting B ,is searching for excuses for the failure of A .
In this scenario, the parties are at peace. The changes made are that the US / PI make more effort to readiness of their forces than they historically did. This doesn't impact Japan in any particular way as they would have had little indication of it occurring.
7 And WHY should MacArthur have acted differently ? Were there any indications on July 26 that Japan would attack the Philippines ?
Yes. There were already war warnings going out that hostilities with Japan could occur in the near future. Admiral Hart and the Asiatic Fleet were already working with the British and Dutch on joint operations planning for such a war. There were plenty of indications that a war was imminent. MacArthur on that basis alone should have proceeded on a war footing from the beginning rather than remain on a peacetime timetable to get things ready.

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Re: MacArthur dies 1938

#21

Post by ljadw » 18 Jul 2022, 07:51

About point 7 :War warnings are not indications .MacArthur ,Stark, Kimmel, Short received almost every day warnings which appeared to be false .Stalin received everyday warnings about a German attack and nothing happened .The CIA,etc received a lot of warnings about a terrorist attack, and, nothing happened, til 9/11.
There are everyday warnings about a Russian attack which is not happening .You can't order your forces to be and to remain on war footing,if war does not occur .
About point 6 and point 5 : the Japanese superiority was that great that nothing what MacArthur could have done would have changed the outcome .
About point 4 and point 3 : saying that MacArthur could have done much more,without proving that he could have done it and without indicating what more he could have done,is not convincing . What is the plenty evidence ?
About point 1 : business as usual when there is no war is the correct thing to do .You can't continue to put your forces on war footing,if there is no war .
Conclusions
1 There was no reason to alarm everyone when there were no proofs for an imminent attack.
2 It was also not possible to do more than was done : there was no Philippine army in 1937 and it would take at least 10 years before such an army could be created .And even then,there was no proof that that this army could be operational in 1946,as the Philippines had no money and everything depended on the willingness of Capitol Hill to increase taxes to give money to the Philippines .
3 Even if more was done ,and ''more '' meant ''little '' the result would have been the same :liberation of the Philippines was impossible in 1942 .
4 To accuse MacArthur because he did not in a few months in peacetime,what was done during 2 years in war time is very unfair .
5 It is the same for the accusations against Percival for the fall of Malaya and Singapore .

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Takao
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Re: MacArthur dies 1938

#22

Post by Takao » 18 Jul 2022, 13:28

paulrward wrote:
17 Jul 2022, 01:09
Hello All ;

Thank you, Mr. Gardner. That is very helpful. As you are certainly aware from your career, the first
step carrying out any project is to have the project budgeted, especially if it is a large construction
project. Money has to be allocated, equipment purchased, materials purchased, labor contracted for,
and it all takes MONEY !

As the man said in ' The Right Stuff ', " NO BUCKS, NO BUCK ROGERS ! "

If you go back and read MacArthur's and Eisenhower's accounts of their time in the Philippines in
the middle and late 1930s, quite simply they HAD NO MONEY ! Washington decided that, since
the PI were going to be granted independance, that meant that nobody there was going to be either
a taxpayer or a voter, and so there was no reason to give them ANYTHING ! MacArthur couldn't even
get shoes for his new army, much less rifles, and this was while the U.S. Army was sitting on whole
warehouses of surplus rifles and equipment that could have been sent out to him.
That is rather odd...I wonder how many shoes Dugout Doug's $500,000 dollar "golden parachute" from Quezon would have bought?

Also, given Dugout Doug's $500k was 46/100 of 1% of the Philippine defense budget to 1942...That gives Dugout Doug somewhere north of $50 million dollars to play with.
$50 million + dollars is hardly "NO MONEY".

Not to mention, Dugout Doug alway used a lack of funds as an excuse...He was doing this in 1932.

paulrward wrote:
17 Jul 2022, 01:09
As fighters and bombers became obsolete, they could have been sent to the PI, and used to serve
as the nucleus of a PI Air Force. They never were.
Also odd...I wonder where the Philippines got their obsolete P-26s from, if not the US?

I wonder why nobody else thought of this....Oh wait, they did! Had not war intervened, the Seversky P-35s were going to be turned over to the Philippines.

paulrward wrote:
17 Jul 2022, 01:09
As late as 1937, when Manuel Quezon traveled to Washington, Roosevelt refused to see him. Freewheelin'
Franklin couldn't even spare a few minutes for a sit down and a Photo Shoot ! MacArthur, who had
accompanied Quezon, made such a stink that, at the last moment, they arranged a luncheon for Quezon
with the Secreataries of State and Interior, at a private hotel.
Paul, there really is NO NEED TO LIE about this.
Franklin Roosevelt met with Manuel Quezon FOUR TIMES IN 1937.

February 26, 1937
March 3, 1937
April 23, 1937
June 24, 1937

Perhaps, you could tell us on what date, in 1937, FDR is alleged to have refused to meet with Quezon?

Please spare us the BS in future posts.


paulrward wrote:
17 Jul 2022, 01:09
Then, suddenly, Freewheelin Franklin realized that Japan was taking over the Pacific, and that he
needed to do something about it. ( He figures this out the day after the Japanese moved into French
IndoChina ! ) and, after THE NAVY ! and Marshall told him that nothing could be done, Hap
Arnold piped up, and said, " Hey, we can threaten those mean old Japs with Flying Fortresses ! "
Actually, it was Dugout Doug that gave Franklin a "false bill of sale" to justify defending the Philippines, while everyone else had known for decades that the Philippines was a lost cause if attacked.

Despite Dugout Doug's misplace confidence in his personally trained Army, even Quezon was not buying it and spent 1938-39 trying to convince Japan that the Philippines would remain neutral in any conflict.


paulrward wrote:
17 Jul 2022, 01:09
Suddenly, B-17s are being scraped up from all over the country, and flown out to the Pacific. There
were no runways for them, or hangers, or machine shops, or oxygen purifiers, or anything else to keep
them running, but BY GOD, Hap Arnold says that these bombers will defeat the Japs just by sitting on
the ground and looking dangerous !
There were runways for the B-17s.

There were hangers, but not enough to house all of them. But, let's face facts, the vast majority of aircraft were not housed in hangers, but kept outside in individual revertments or handstands.

There were machine shops, or else there would have been 0 aircraft flying.

There were oxygen plants, the 19th Bombardment Group had the brought their oxygen plants with them.


paulrward wrote:
17 Jul 2022, 01:09
The collapse of the Philippines had NOTHING to do with MacArthur, who had been crying in the Wilderness
for six long years, while Freewheelin Franklin was trying to convert the United States into a Socialist
Paradise at the same time he was chasing his mistress around the Oval Office.
Dugout Doug had six long years and, at least $50 million to construct his defenses. When he was done he stated...
"no Chancellery in the World will ever willingly make an attempt to willfully attack the Philippines.”


paulrward wrote:
17 Jul 2022, 01:09
Right. And the guy at the top of the Command Structure was ROOSEVELT !

Had Roosevelt buried his animosity for MacArthur, and gotten the Democratic Party to push a Philippine
Defense Appropriation Act through the Congress, in say, October of 1939, then Macarthur would have
had almost two more years to prepare. With a Philippine Army trained up, armed with 200,000 modified
M1917s, a dozen batteries of French 75s, every P-26, P-35, and P-36 that could be shipped out to him,
with experienced pilots, along with Northrop A-17s and some twin engine medium bombers, like Douglass
Bostons or Martin Marylands, along with a few regiments of Stuart Tanks and some of the old 7" Navy guns
that had been converted into heavy field artillery, AND ALL THE AMMUNITION AND SUPPLIES THEY NEEDED,
MacArthur might have been able to put up a defense.
Right...Franklin will do this....When the US Army has less than 200,000 men, when the USAAC is using the P-26, P-35, and P-36 as training aircraft because they don't have enough P-40s for training squadrons & combat squadrons, when the US Army is still fielding WW1 tanks & training with trucks marked "TANK" because they don't have enough modern tanks.

How do you plan on moving heavy 7" US Navy guns all around the Philippines? They are going to get stuck.


paulrward wrote:
17 Jul 2022, 01:09
To Mr. Takao:

Mr. Takao, I am proud of my education. I paid for every hour of it out of my own pocket. No scholarships,
no student loans. I wish I could have gotten more. My biggest regret after all these years is that I had
to quit after taking Ordinary Differential Equations. I would have loved to take Linear Algebra and then
Tensor Calculus. But, there just wasn't the time .......

As for my employment, no, I never worked for IBM, though on two occasions I worked AT IBM, as they were
doing business with my employers. As for what I did, for nearly 40 years, I was a Semiconductor Manufacturing
Process Engineer, specializing primarily in Photo-MicroLithography, with some occasional ventures into Chemical
and Plasma Etching, along with Thin Film deposition, both CVD and PECVD.

dpix.jpg

In the photo on the left, one of my fellow engineers is programming the MRS-Azores 6600 Flat Panel Stepper,
which created sub-micron lines and patterns on the Flat Panel X-Ray Detectors, one of which is being held
in the photo on the right by Mr. Frank Caris, President of DpiX, LLC. ( Frank is a wonderful gentleman, who
came in and almost single handedly saved the company - he is a fellow of rare intellect and dry wit. )

Each one of the four rectangles you can see on that flat panel contains about 2 million X-Ray detecting
Photo Diodes.

Mr. Takao, if you have had an X-Ray, such as a Dental X-Ray, in the past 15 years, there is a very good
chance that I was one of the Engineers responsible for supervising the technical aspects of the production
of the Flat Panel Detector that made that Digital X Ray possible.


However, Mr. Takao, IF I had been a Sanitation Engineer, right now you would be feeling somewhat flushed.....


Repectfully

Paul R. Ward
Never had an X-ray in 30 years. Sorry.

However, with your supposed education, I would have hoped that you could at least get your facts correct.

I am still under the impression that you are a Sanitation Engineer with all the BS in your post that I had to correct.

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Takao
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Re: MacArthur dies 1938

#23

Post by Takao » 18 Jul 2022, 15:25

ljadw wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 07:51
About point 7 :War warnings are not indications .MacArthur ,Stark, Kimmel, Short received almost every day warnings which appeared to be false.
War Warnings from Washington are indications, that is why they are called "war warnings."

Further, Dugout Doug had his own code-breaking intelligence unit, Station 6, as well as access to MAGIC intercepts beginning in July, 1941.

For his own reasons, he refused to conduct air reconnaissance of Formosa. Restricting his aircraft to 2/3rds distance to the island.
No wonder there was no Intel on Formosa when war came. Meanwhile, the Japanese were routinely scouting the Philippines.


ljadw wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 07:51
About point 6 and point 5 : the Japanese superiority was that great that nothing what MacArthur could have done would have changed the outcome .
Japanese superiority? How are you defining that the Japanese were "superior"? MacArthur had more troops and a roughly equal number of tanks - While the Japanese had roughly double the number of aircraft.


ljadw wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 07:51
About point 1 : business as usual when there is no war is the correct thing to do .You can't continue to put your forces on war footing,if there is no war .
Business as usual?

What is the point of having an army if it is not always ready to go to war?


ljadw wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 07:51
Conclusions
1 There was no reason to alarm everyone when there were no proofs for an imminent attack.
Complacency is an excuse for unpreparedness.

ljadw wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 07:51
2 It was also not possible to do more than was done : there was no Philippine army in 1937 and it would take at least 10 years before such an army could be created .And even then,there was no proof that that this army could be operational in 1946,as the Philippines had no money and everything depended on the willingness of Capitol Hill to increase taxes to give money to the Philippines .
False - Because a path not taken does not mean the path was impossible to take.

False - Dugout Doug gladly bragged that his Philippine Army changed the strategic picture. See the December 17, 1940 issue of the Manila Times.


ljadw wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 07:51
3 Even if more was done ,and ''more '' meant ''little '' the result would have been the same :liberation of the Philippines was impossible in 1942 .
"More" means "more", "little" means "little", "more" does not necessarily mean "little". However, doing a little more is better than doing nothing.

ljadw wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 07:51
4 To accuse MacArthur because he did not in a few months in peacetime,what was done during 2 years in war time is very unfair .
A few months??? You are joking right.

Dugout Doug was Field Marshal of the Philippine Army in 1936, and continued in that capacity as a civilian beginning in 1937.
That is 6 years...NOT a few months.

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Re: MacArthur dies 1938

#24

Post by ljadw » 18 Jul 2022, 16:35

MacArthur was US commander in the Philippines since 26 July 1941, a few months before PH .
There was no army of the Philippines in 1936 and to construct such an army would take more than 10 years .

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Re: MacArthur dies 1938

#25

Post by ljadw » 18 Jul 2022, 16:55

About the meaningless warnings from Washington .
The following is a part of a warning from Marshall on 27 November 1941 :
''Japanese future action unpredictable,but hostile action possible at any moment .''
This is totally meaningless,with as aim to cover the behind of Marshall .The same could be said on 27 November 1940 or on 27 November 1941 .
Marshall said : We don't know what Japan will do ,it is possible that it will attack,but it is also possible that it will not attack .
And you expect that MacArthur would base his strategy on something that had the value of a newspaper article ?
Mac Arthur had 31000 men to defend the Philippines ,without sufficient resources, ammunition, weapons .
What should he do after receiving from the army chief the message that in Washington,one did not know what Japan would do ?
The best thing MacArthur could do,was to do nothing and to wait on serious information .
The only thing he received before PH was blah blah that could be printed in the CSM .
If on 1/11 /2001 the White House received the following message :'' future action from ISIS is unpredictable,but a terrorist action on American soil is always possible .'' should Defcon condition go up ?

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: MacArthur dies 1938

#26

Post by T. A. Gardner » 18 Jul 2022, 17:01

ljadw wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 16:35
MacArthur was US commander in the Philippines since 26 July 1941, a few months before PH .
There was no army of the Philippines in 1936 and to construct such an army would take more than 10 years .
Wrong. MacArthur was hired by the Philippine government and made a "Field Marshall" in charge of their army on Nov 15 1935. It took about a year to establish camps and other infrastructure to begin actual assembly of units with the first 20,000 men being inducted in January 1937. By 1939 the PA had grown to two divisions in service (the 1st "Regular" division and 2nd "Constabulary" division) and 10 reserve divisions with over 100,000 men active and reserve.
It was an outgrowth of the previous Philippine National Guard of about 25,000 men the US had organized starting in 1917.

Training of these forces was erratic and often spotty. This was due to a number of issues from the poor quality of men recruited, to language issues, to indifference on the part of US officers and men seconded to instructor duty from US forces in the Philippines. A related issue was the attempt to train the PA in a variety of military fields rather than initially concentrating on standing up a basic army. Many of the recruits were give training in coast defense artillery or other branches of service.

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Takao
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Re: MacArthur dies 1938

#27

Post by Takao » 18 Jul 2022, 17:05

ljadw wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 16:35
MacArthur was US commander in the Philippines since 26 July 1941, a few months before PH .
There was no army of the Philippines in 1936 and to construct such an army would take more than 10 years .
So, Quezon gave Dugout Doug a "no-show" job, thus buying Dougout Doug's allegiance.

The $500,000 Quezon payed off Dugout Doug was the icing on the cake.
Last edited by Takao on 18 Jul 2022, 17:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MacArthur dies 1938

#28

Post by Takao » 18 Jul 2022, 17:34

ljadw wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 16:55
About the meaningless warnings from Washington .
The following is a part of a warning from Marshall on 27 November 1941 :
''Japanese future action unpredictable,but hostile action possible at any moment .''
This is totally meaningless,with as aim to cover the behind of Marshall .
And what do you know, 10 days later Japan attacked.

ljadw wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 16:55
The same could be said on 27 November 1940 or on 27 November 1941 .
Did Japan attack on December 7th, 1940? No, it did not.
Was a "War Warning" sent out on November 27, 1940? No it was not.

Guess the same could not be said for November 27, 1940.

ljadw wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 16:55
Marshall said : We don't know what Japan will do ,it is possible that it will attack,but it is also possible that it will not attack .
Could you please quote where Marshall said this?

ljadw wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 16:55
And you expect that MacArthur would base his strategy on something that had the value of a newspaper article ?
Could you post the newspaper article?

ljadw wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 16:55
Mac Arthur had 31000 men to defend the Philippines ,without sufficient resources, ammunition, weapons .
So, the Philippino troops do not count as "men"? Do you consider them to be "women", "children", or "other"?


ljadw wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 16:55
What should he do after receiving from the army chief the message that in Washington,one did not know what Japan would do ?
The best thing MacArthur could do,was to do nothing and to wait on serious information .
Dugout Doug did nothing...And got his pants pulled down, and his underwear pulled up over his head. So, I am going to say, doing nothing was probably the dumbest thing he could have done.


ljadw wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 16:55
The only thing he received before PH was blah blah that could be printed in the CSM .
Christian Science Monitor?
Command and Service Module?
Cisco Service Module?

ljadw wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 16:55
If on 1/11 /2001 the White House received the following message :'' future action from ISIS is unpredictable,but a terrorist action on American soil is always possible .'' should Defcon condition go up ?
Irrelevant, considering you added the word "always" and left out "at any moment."

No points for purposely skewing the meaning of the message.

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 10055
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Location: USA

Re: MacArthur dies 1938

#29

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 18 Jul 2022, 17:56

Takao wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 17:34
No points for purposely skewing the meaning of the message.
Not the first or even the second time I've seen those messages interpreted out of context and without reference to the supporting information, or understanding of the military/polical language of the times contained therein.

For those who want to start delving into the larger context of these messages here is one starting point.
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/narrative/17.html



Here are three of the pertinent messages. Note the bolded sentences. In the context of my 20+ years military experience they are giant red alarm flags. Not CYA palliatives. Its a understudied bit of history, but the actions taken by Kimmel, the fleet, and the base units from 27 Move to about 4 December illustrate how seriously they did take the warning, initially.
Alert Message from Chief of Naval Operations

Nov. 24, 1941
FROM: Chief of Naval Operations

ACTION: CinCAF, CinCPAC, Com 11, Com 12, Com 13, Com 15

INFO: Spenavo London Cinclant

242005

Chances of favorable outcome of negotiations with Japan very doubtful. This situation coupled with statements of Japanese Government and movements their naval and military forces indicate in our opinion that a surprise aggressive movement in any direction including attack on Philippines or Guam is a possibility. Chief of Staff has seen this dispatch concurs and requests action adees [addressees] to inform senior Army officers their areas. Utmost secrecy necessary in order not to complicate an already tense situation or precipitate Japanese action. Guam will be informed separately.

Copy to WPD, War Dept. and Op-12 but no other distribution.


War Warning Message from Chief of Naval Operations

Nov. 27, 1941
FROM: Chief of Naval Operations

ACTION: CinCAF, CinCPAC

INFO: Cinclant, Spenavo

272337

This dispatch is to be considered a war warning. Negotiations with Japan looking toward stabilization of conditions in the Pacific have ceased and an aggressive move by Japan is expected within the next few days. The number and equipment of Japanese troops and the organization of naval task forces indicates an amphibious expedition against either the Philippines, Thai or Kra Peninsula or possibly Borneo. Execute an appropriate defensive deployment preparatory to carrying out the tasks assigned in WPL 46. Inform district and Army authorities. A similar warning is being sent by War Department.

Spenavo inform British. Continental districts Guam, Samoa directed take appropriate measures against sabotage.

Copy to WPD, War Dept.

Army Alert Sent by Chief of Naval Operations:

Nov. 28, 1941
FROM: Chief of Naval Operations

ACTION: Com Pnncf, Com Psncf

INFO: Cincpac Com Pncf

28----

Refer to my 272338. Army has sent following to commander western defense command.

Negotiations with Japan appear to be terminated to all practical purposes with only the barest possibilities that the Japanese Government might come back and offer to continue. Japanese future action unpredictable but hostile action possible at any moment. If hostilities cannot repeat not be avoided the United States desires that Japan commit the first overt act. This policy should not repeat not be construed as restricting you to a course of action that might jeopardize your defense. Prior to hostile Japanese action you are directed to undertake such reconnaissance and other measures as you deem necessary but these measure should be carried out so as not repeat not to alarm civil population or disclose intent. Report measures taken. A separate message in being sent to G-2, Ninth Corps Area re subversive activities in the United States. Should hostilities occur you will carry out the tasks assigned in Rainbow five so far as they pertain to Japan. Limit dissemination of this highly secret information to minimum essential officers. Unquote. WPL 52 is not applicable to Pacific area and will not be placed in effect in that area except as now in force in southeast Pacific sub area and Panama naval coastal frontier. Undertake no offensive action until Japan has committed an overt act. Be prepared to carry out tasks assigned in WPL-46, so far as they apply to Japan in case hostilities occur.

ljadw
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Posts: 15585
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: MacArthur dies 1938

#30

Post by ljadw » 19 Jul 2022, 09:11

You can't mobilize your forces (including 100000 civilians ),impose martial law and disrupt the economy because someone is saying :
Japanese future actions are unpredictable : translation : we can't forecast what Japan will do.
and
Hostile action is possible at any moment : translation :Japan can attack today, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year .
Would the NATO commander order mobilization of his forces if someone told him : we don't know what Putin will do, but he can attack at any moment ?
Marshall neither Stark had any proofs for their warnings and warnings without proof are only useless words .
There was no proof on 28 November 1941 that on 8 December 1941 Japan would start a war against the US .
Besides on 28 November 1941 Tokyo had not taken the decision to start a war against the US .
That the negotiations with Japan were terminated does not mean that war with Japan was inevitable and if this war was inevitable,that does not mean that it would begin on 7 December .

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