Stalingrad

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Aida1
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by Aida1 » 08 Aug 2022 16:54

ljadw wrote:
21 Mar 2022 21:37
2 more points : nobody has been able (after almost 80 years ) why Paulus and his HQ were located in what in November would be the Kessel .There was no reason for him to be there : where he was he had no information about the forces north and south of the future Kessel. Only a minority of the forces in the future Kessel were fighting in the city ,most were outside Stalingrad .
After all these years I am still amazed about the ease with which would.be historians, media historians and even serious historians are succeeding to avoid and even to hide the mean reason of the German defeat in Stalingrad, which is the very big problems for the Germans to supply, ALREADY BEFORE 20 November,6.Army with what it claimed to need .And, we know how the army succeeded to convince people that it was all the fault from the LW and especially Goering,the fat Reichsmarschall,while the truth is that the supplies had to be produced in the Heimat and to be transported by train to stations west of Stalingrad .
It was not so that after Uranus X tons of supplies were waiting on aircraft to be transported to airfields in the Kessel,the truth was that the JU were waiting on supplies to transport them to the few airfields in the Kessel .
The logistical problems of Operation Blau are a well known historical fact but not the cause of the defeat of 6 army. Not being able to supply 6 army by air was due to not enough aircraft to transport the quantities needed. The supplies were certainly available. That Goring guaranteed he could supply 6 army is his responsability. He could have known better.

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Aida1
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by Aida1 » 08 Aug 2022 17:34

Yuri wrote:
03 Apr 2022 15:29
ljadw wrote:
03 Apr 2022 09:28
The map does NOT show that the main forces of the 14 Pz are located at Werkhnyaya Buzinovka, because no map can show this :maps do not indicate strength .Only a detailed report of the local commander can indicate the strength of 14 Pz at Werkhnyaya Buzinovka .
All we have is the report of the Abwicklungstab indicating the strength of 6th Army at 15 October inside and outside what would be 5 weeks later the pocket .
Not "NOT", but "YES".
The map shows: the main forces of the German 14th Pz.D. are located in the Verkh. Buzinovka area, because the inscription "Ma 14.Pz" is the designation on the map of the location of the main forces of the division.
The designation "Ma" has no other meaning for our case.
This is the army document, not a receipt for the purchase of toilet paper..
Further, Your day of October 15, 1942 is not suitable, because there is too much time (five weeks) between this day and the day of November 23, 1942. A lot of things could have changed in these days.
We have the opportunity to find out about the location and strength of the German 14th Pz.D. with a date very close to November 23, namely the date of November 19/20, 1942.
42-11-19_4Pz_rum3A_XXXXVIII_Pz().jpg
This is not a novel of Soviet/Russian writers and not the work of Soviet/Russian historians, this is a document of the headquarters of the German XXXXVIII.Pz.K compiled just on the day of the beginning of the operation "Uranus" by the Red Army troops.

As you can see, during the period from October 15 to November 19, 1942, the main forces of the German 14th Pz.D., located in the Verkhnyaya Buzinovka area, increased from 9,594 people (235 officers + 9,359 man and uffz.) to a total of 10,389 people.
Thus, in five weeks, the number of the main forces of the German 14st Pz.D. located in the Verkhnyaya Buzinovka area increased by 795 people, that is, by 7.5%, which is not a little.
Conclusion. The source is: WW 2 stats is wrong.
ljadw wrote:
03 Apr 2022 09:28
And this report proves clearly that the postwar claims,who have become a myth, that Uranus resulted in the encirclement of 300,000 German soldiers,are totally wrong .
I agree, "are totally wrong". The number of 300,000 European soldiers, officers and generals who were surrounded as a result of Uranium is a myth.
In fact, on November 23, 1942, as a result of the 1st stage of the Stalingrad Offensive operation (which went down in military history as Operation Uranus), 330,000 European soldiers, officers and generals of all types of armed forces and all branches of the troops got into the encirclement ring.
Support units of a division are located so back rom the front that they can end up outside of an encirclement. 16 pz div, for example had 2200 men outside the stalingrad pocket including 400 hiwis(Geschichte der 16 Pz div ., Wolfgang Werth en podzun Verlag 1958 p 138).

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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 09 Aug 2022 06:53

Aida1 wrote:
08 Aug 2022 16:54
ljadw wrote:
21 Mar 2022 21:37
2 more points : nobody has been able (after almost 80 years ) why Paulus and his HQ were located in what in November would be the Kessel .There was no reason for him to be there : where he was he had no information about the forces north and south of the future Kessel. Only a minority of the forces in the future Kessel were fighting in the city ,most were outside Stalingrad .
After all these years I am still amazed about the ease with which would.be historians, media historians and even serious historians are succeeding to avoid and even to hide the mean reason of the German defeat in Stalingrad, which is the very big problems for the Germans to supply, ALREADY BEFORE 20 November,6.Army with what it claimed to need .And, we know how the army succeeded to convince people that it was all the fault from the LW and especially Goering,the fat Reichsmarschall,while the truth is that the supplies had to be produced in the Heimat and to be transported by train to stations west of Stalingrad .
It was not so that after Uranus X tons of supplies were waiting on aircraft to be transported to airfields in the Kessel,the truth was that the JU were waiting on supplies to transport them to the few airfields in the Kessel .
The logistical problems of Operation Blau are a well known historical fact but not the cause of the defeat of 6 army. Not being able to supply 6 army by air was due to not enough aircraft to transport the quantities needed. The supplies were certainly available. That Goring guaranteed he could supply 6 army is his responsability. He could have known better.
What is your proof for your claim that ''the supplies were certainly available ''?
6th Army did not starve because of what Goering said .

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dgfred
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by dgfred » 09 Aug 2022 14:56

Still kind of stupid to say it in the first place. We will do our best would have been enough said IMO.

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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 09 Aug 2022 16:00

After the encirclement 6th Army fought during 10 weeks .Why ? Maybe because they received ''sufficient '' supplies ? Or maybe they had sufficient supplies at the start of Uranus ?
In both cases one can not blame the LW .
How many more days would 6th Army have fought if it had received more supplies ?
IMHO the supply question which is much overrated,has been exaggerated to deny the Soviets the merit of the victory .The same happened 2 years later at the allied defeat of MG,where the allied media were inventing excuses, scapegoats ( Montgomery ) to deny that the Germans defeated the Allies .
The same happened in 1914 ( the Marne ) where Moltke was the scapegoat,the Philippines in 1942 ,where even today Democrats are saying that it was all the fault of the Republican MacArthur,or in 1940 where the French blamed Gamelin and the Belgians,and ,let's not talk about today's wars .

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Aida1
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by Aida1 » 09 Aug 2022 16:32

ljadw wrote:
09 Aug 2022 06:53
Aida1 wrote:
08 Aug 2022 16:54
ljadw wrote:
21 Mar 2022 21:37
2 more points : nobody has been able (after almost 80 years ) why Paulus and his HQ were located in what in November would be the Kessel .There was no reason for him to be there : where he was he had no information about the forces north and south of the future Kessel. Only a minority of the forces in the future Kessel were fighting in the city ,most were outside Stalingrad .
After all these years I am still amazed about the ease with which would.be historians, media historians and even serious historians are succeeding to avoid and even to hide the mean reason of the German defeat in Stalingrad, which is the very big problems for the Germans to supply, ALREADY BEFORE 20 November,6.Army with what it claimed to need .And, we know how the army succeeded to convince people that it was all the fault from the LW and especially Goering,the fat Reichsmarschall,while the truth is that the supplies had to be produced in the Heimat and to be transported by train to stations west of Stalingrad .
It was not so that after Uranus X tons of supplies were waiting on aircraft to be transported to airfields in the Kessel,the truth was that the JU were waiting on supplies to transport them to the few airfields in the Kessel .
The logistical problems of Operation Blau are a well known historical fact but not the cause of the defeat of 6 army. Not being able to supply 6 army by air was due to not enough aircraft to transport the quantities needed. The supplies were certainly available. That Goring guaranteed he could supply 6 army is his responsability. He could have known better.
What is your proof for your claim that ''the supplies were certainly available ''?
6th Army did not starve because of what Goering said .
No historical work on Stalingrad will support your claim that there were insufficient supplies available to be flown in. The limiting factor was always the number of aircraft that could fly and the weather. There were certainly supply issues in general for the front when not enough trains, arrived but never to the extent that you would have aircraft that could fly but not enough supplies to load them with(Stalingrad Manfred Kehrig DVA 1974 pp 283-303 and 411-420).
Fundamentally Goering promised something that was not really thought through.

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Aida1
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by Aida1 » 09 Aug 2022 16:39

ljadw wrote:
09 Aug 2022 16:00
After the encirclement 6th Army fought during 10 weeks .Why ? Maybe because they received ''sufficient '' supplies ? Or maybe they had sufficient supplies at the start of Uranus ?
In both cases one can not blame the LW .
How many more days would 6th Army have fought if it had received more supplies ?
IMHO the supply question which is much overrated,has been exaggerated to deny the Soviets the merit of the victory .The same happened 2 years later at the allied defeat of MG,where the allied media were inventing excuses, scapegoats ( Montgomery ) to deny that the Germans defeated the Allies .
The same happened in 1914 ( the Marne ) where Moltke was the scapegoat,the Philippines in 1942 ,where even today Democrats are saying that it was all the fault of the Republican MacArthur,or in 1940 where the French blamed Gamelin and the Belgians,and ,let's not talk about today's wars .
This nonsense illustrates your lack of knowledge. If 6 army would have received the tonnage requested, it could for example have felt able to attack towards the relief forces in december. In general, soldiers that are well fed and have enough ammo and fuel will obviously perform better than without.
And it is not the Luftwaffe that is blamed. It is Goering that made a promise without actually having studied first whether it was actually feasible to supply 6 army.

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MarkF617
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by MarkF617 » 09 Aug 2022 23:02

I thought it was Goering's deputy who made the promise as Goering was absent (can't remember why).

Thanks

Mark.
You know you're British when you drive your German car to an Irish pub for a pint of Belgian beer before having an Indian meal. When you get home you sit on your Sweedish sofa and watch American programs on your Japanese TV.

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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 10 Aug 2022 06:13

Aida1 wrote:
09 Aug 2022 16:39
ljadw wrote:
09 Aug 2022 16:00
After the encirclement 6th Army fought during 10 weeks .Why ? Maybe because they received ''sufficient '' supplies ? Or maybe they had sufficient supplies at the start of Uranus ?
In both cases one can not blame the LW .
How many more days would 6th Army have fought if it had received more supplies ?
IMHO the supply question which is much overrated,has been exaggerated to deny the Soviets the merit of the victory .The same happened 2 years later at the allied defeat of MG,where the allied media were inventing excuses, scapegoats ( Montgomery ) to deny that the Germans defeated the Allies .
The same happened in 1914 ( the Marne ) where Moltke was the scapegoat,the Philippines in 1942 ,where even today Democrats are saying that it was all the fault of the Republican MacArthur,or in 1940 where the French blamed Gamelin and the Belgians,and ,let's not talk about today's wars .
This nonsense illustrates your lack of knowledge. If 6 army would have received the tonnage requested, it could for example have felt able to attack towards the relief forces in december. In general, soldiers that are well fed and have enough ammo and fuel will obviously perform better than without.
And it is not the Luftwaffe that is blamed. It is Goering that made a promise without actually having studied first whether it was actually feasible to supply 6 army.
''It could for example have felt able to attack towards the relief forces in December '' ït COULD :roll:
How do you know ?
From ''Schienenstrang nach Stalingrad '' P 34
''Die wenigen Versorgungslager der 6.Armee befanden sich entweder ausserhalb des Kessels oder teils bereits in russischer hand...''
The few supply depots of 6th army were outside the Kessel or already occupied by the Russians .
This means that it would be a wast for the LW to transport more supplies ( if these were available ) as there were no airfield where the LW aircraft could land, no trucks to transport the supplies to the non existent supply depots and no trucks to transport the supplies from the depots to the front .
The supply problems started already long before the encirclement ,thus what Goering told Hitler was irrelevant for what would happen next .

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Aida1
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Re: Stalingrad

Post by Aida1 » 10 Aug 2022 08:09

ljadw wrote:
10 Aug 2022 06:13
Aida1 wrote:
09 Aug 2022 16:39
ljadw wrote:
09 Aug 2022 16:00
After the encirclement 6th Army fought during 10 weeks .Why ? Maybe because they received ''sufficient '' supplies ? Or maybe they had sufficient supplies at the start of Uranus ?
In both cases one can not blame the LW .
How many more days would 6th Army have fought if it had received more supplies ?
IMHO the supply question which is much overrated,has been exaggerated to deny the Soviets the merit of the victory .The same happened 2 years later at the allied defeat of MG,where the allied media were inventing excuses, scapegoats ( Montgomery ) to deny that the Germans defeated the Allies .
The same happened in 1914 ( the Marne ) where Moltke was the scapegoat,the Philippines in 1942 ,where even today Democrats are saying that it was all the fault of the Republican MacArthur,or in 1940 where the French blamed Gamelin and the Belgians,and ,let's not talk about today's wars .
This nonsense illustrates your lack of knowledge. If 6 army would have received the tonnage requested, it could for example have felt able to attack towards the relief forces in december. In general, soldiers that are well fed and have enough ammo and fuel will obviously perform better than without.
And it is not the Luftwaffe that is blamed. It is Goering that made a promise without actually having studied first whether it was actually feasible to supply 6 army.
''It could for example have felt able to attack towards the relief forces in December '' ït COULD :roll:
How do you know ?
From ''Schienenstrang nach Stalingrad '' P 34
''Die wenigen Versorgungslager der 6.Armee befanden sich entweder ausserhalb des Kessels oder teils bereits in russischer hand...''
The few supply depots of 6th army were outside the Kessel or already occupied by the Russians .
This means that it would be a wast for the LW to transport more supplies ( if these were available ) as there were no airfield where the LW aircraft could land, no trucks to transport the supplies to the non existent supply depots and no trucks to transport the supplies from the depots to the front .
The supply problems started already long before the encirclement ,thus what Goering told Hitler was irrelevant for what would happen next .
If you did your reading you would know a new supply organisation was set up inside the Kessel and there were certainly airfields, where the aircraft could land and supplies could be transported inside the pocket Kehrigs book I mentioned above explains that in detail.
As according to you there were no airfields🤣, you would have to explain how wounded and specialists were flown out of the pocket. As usual, you only show your lack of reading.

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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 10 Aug 2022 08:45

Certainly = handwaving .
The only airfield that could handle large amounts of goods was Pitomnik ,but it was already unable to handle the supplies that were landed in the OTL . It could not handle more supplies .
Thus to transport more supplies was only a wast of means .
And : wounded and specialists are not supplies .

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Re: Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 10 Aug 2022 08:53

The fate of 6th army did not depend on the amount of supplies that could be transported in the Kessel, but on the possibility of the relief forces to break the encirclement, and this possibility did not exist .After Uranus ,6th Army was doomed .
Point .
All the rest is the usual tactic of defeated armies ( from all sides ) to deny that they were defeated by the enemy .

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Re: Stalingrad

Post by Art » 10 Aug 2022 09:17

MarkF617 wrote:
09 Aug 2022 23:02
I thought it was Goering's deputy who made the promise as Goering was absent (can't remember why).
Yep, that was Jeschonnek:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Jesc ... viet_Union

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Re: Stalingrad

Post by Aida1 » 10 Aug 2022 09:31

ljadw wrote:
10 Aug 2022 08:45
Certainly = handwaving .
The only airfield that could handle large amounts of goods was Pitomnik ,but it was already unable to handle the supplies that were landed in the OTL . It could not handle more supplies .
Thus to transport more supplies was only a wast of means .
And : wounded and specialists are not supplies .
You first pretended there were no airfields 😂😂😂. Now you suddenly admit there were😂😂. You do seem not to understand that the aircraft that flew in supplies, flew out wounded and specialists.
What you pretend about the airfields' capacity to handle supplies is incorrect as usual. The limiting factors always were numbers of serviceable aircraft, weather and aircraft being shot down, never insufficient capacity at the airfields.
Last edited by Aida1 on 10 Aug 2022 11:05, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Stalingrad

Post by Aida1 » 10 Aug 2022 09:34

ljadw wrote:
10 Aug 2022 08:53
The fate of 6th army did not depend on the amount of supplies that could be transported in the Kessel, but on the possibility of the relief forces to break the encirclement, and this possibility did not exist .After Uranus ,6th Army was doomed .
Point .
All the rest is the usual tactic of defeated armies ( from all sides ) to deny that they were defeated by the enemy .
This is called beating a hasty retreat after being found out on the supply issue. A better supplied 6 army could have attacked towards the relief force. Was a matter of enough fuel.

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