Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

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Takao
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

#136

Post by Takao » 08 Oct 2022, 17:13

ljadw wrote:
07 Oct 2022, 16:37
NO : the unloading of German goods was depending on the capacity of the Spanish railways .If these railway stations could not unload fuels, grains and fertilizers that Spain was asking for, these goods would remain in France.And,if these goods were unloaded, the problem was only moved, not solved .Fertilizers in a depot at the border with France, does not mean fertilizers in Madrid or Sevilla .
Half of the stock of Spanish locs was lost during the civil war,thus it was out of the question that the goods Spain demanded could leave the border .
All this indicates that Spain intentionally demanded goods of which it knew that they could not go farther than the border . A year before Italy did the same to avoid being forced to join the war .Their demands also were impossible . Spain did the same . Turkey also did the same : in both directions .
This is...Of course...Incorrect, as you well know.

The unloading of German trains is a Spanish problem, not a German one. The German trains can dump their goods the railway yard alongside the track for all Germany cares. That the goods were delivered to Spain is all that matters. Whether Spain leaves them lying in the ditch is on Spain/Franco.

Your also forgetting the Spanish break-in-guage. Spain operated a larger Guage railway that the rest of Europe. So German trains were not going to Madrid or Sevilla...Again,...A Spanish problem, not a German one.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

#137

Post by ljadw » 08 Oct 2022, 17:17

Spain did not demand that Germany would deliver goods at the border,it wanted more . And ,it would blame Germany and use it as an excuse to not enter the war .


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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

#138

Post by Ironmachine » 08 Oct 2022, 18:01

ljadw wrote:2 This is very simple .The Document 313 was a proof that Spain would refuse to enter the war .Saying : I will join you ( but refusing to say when ) at certain conditions ( but refusing to enumerate them ) is a plain refusal to join the war and a attempt to blame Germany for this .
3 Of course Germany had lost all chances to defeat Britain in a short war and we know that it had no chance to defeat Britain in a long war . In less than 2 years US would enter the war (Willkie of FDR was the same ) .If Germany was winning, it would not ask the help of Spain .Asking the help of Spain ,while knowing that this help would be meaningless,proved only that Berlin was desperate .
4 Putin asking the help of NK would be the same of Hitler asking the help of Spain .
5 Hitler giving Franco the supplies he asked would not make Felix a reality ;Franco would find another excuse not to enter the war . Franco agreeing with the amount of supplies Hitler would promise would not make Felix a reality . Hitler would back of,as Franco would do .There was no chance at all for Felix to be undertaken ,not because of Spain's strategy ,but because the choice was :Felix or Barbarossa . Both excluded the other .As there was no chance at all that Britain would capitulate after /before Lend Lease because of Felix ,the possibility that Felix would become reality,was nonexistent .There was a small chance for a British capitulation if Barbarossa succeeded. The chance that Britain would capitulate if Gibraltar was captured was nihil .
6 Gibraltar could only be captured by the Germans, not by Spain .If Spain could do it , there would be no need for a German intervention .The Germans had already chosen the equivalent of 4 divisions .
7 That after Hendaye Hitler still tried to convince Spain to enter the war, proved only how desperate he was .
Barbarossa was more risky than Felix : if Barbarossa failed,The Russians would in Berlin . If it succeeded,maybe Britain would give up .
For Felix the situation was different : if it failed the allies would not in Berlin, if it succeeded, Britain would continue the war .
Felix was only a sideshow and a wast of time and time was Germany's biggest enemy .The Germans hoped to eliminate the Soviets in less than 3 months, they knew that Felix would demand much more time .
That in 1941 Hitler still was hoping for a Spanish intervention,was,because there was always the possibility that after a successful Barbarossa, Britain would continue the war .
Felix could only happen after a successful Barbarossa, if it was needed . NOT before Barbarossa.The Barbarossa decision had been made after the meeting of Hendaye . This means that Felix was cancelled definitively or delayed til it was needed.
We already know that when reality does not agree with your opinions, you chose your opinions over reality. However, that does not make your opinions any more real.
Still waiting for your evidence that the Spaniards knew that its demands could not be fullfillled and that's why they demanded them.
Last edited by Ironmachine on 08 Oct 2022, 18:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

#139

Post by Ironmachine » 08 Oct 2022, 18:03

ljadw wrote:Spain did not demand that Germany would deliver goods at the border,it wanted more .
Show your evidence for that.
ljadw wrote:And ,it would blame Germany and use it as an excuse to not enter the war .
That's just your opinion, not a fact.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

#140

Post by Ironmachine » 08 Oct 2022, 18:09

Peter89 wrote:I think it was a debate with you some time ago where we went to the bottom of this.
Yes, it was. You didn't persuade me and I didn't persuade you. As it seems there is nothing new to add by either side, there is no need to keep on with this.
Regards.

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Takao
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

#141

Post by Takao » 08 Oct 2022, 18:35

ljadw wrote:
08 Oct 2022, 17:17
Spain did not demand that Germany would deliver goods at the border,it wanted more . And ,it would blame Germany and use it as an excuse to not enter the war .
As always...Proof please!

Show me where Spain demanded where the German goods should be delivered.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

#142

Post by ljadw » 08 Oct 2022, 21:10

Ironmachine wrote:
08 Oct 2022, 08:17
ljadw wrote:If the Germans knew that it was impossible to transport through Spain weekly 24000 tons of fertilizers ( =60 trains ),65000 tons of grain (= 160 trains ) ,30000 tons of fuels (75 trains ) because of the destruction in the Spanish railways by the civil war, it is obvious that Spain knew it also .
Or do you say that the Germans knew more about the Spanish railways than the Spanish government ?
First, show your evidence that the Germans knew that. And then consider the fact that Spain was also asking for railroad material in its demands. Or perhaps you should consider the possibility that the Spanish government knew more about the Spanish railways that the Germans.
Or simply show your evidence that Spain knew that its demands could not be fulfilled by Germany. Still waiting for that.
See your post 123 : the German ambassador in Spain said that it was impossible to fulfill the Spanish demands .
And there is also the evidence that Spain knew that it could not transport the German deliveries to the rest of Spain :Spain asked for railroad material and if it got it, Spain would say that this material was useless because of the different gauge ,that it could thus not transport the German deliveries and that it could thus not join the war .

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

#143

Post by ljadw » 08 Oct 2022, 21:15

Takao wrote:
08 Oct 2022, 18:35
ljadw wrote:
08 Oct 2022, 17:17
Spain did not demand that Germany would deliver goods at the border,it wanted more . And ,it would blame Germany and use it as an excuse to not enter the war .
As always...Proof please!

Show me where Spain demanded where the German goods should be delivered.
The German deliveries could go no farther than the border,because of the different gauges . But Spain wanted also railroad material ,which would be useless and Spain would blame the Germans .
WHY did Spain demand railroad material that it could not use ? To avoid entering the war and to blame the Germans .

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

#144

Post by ljadw » 08 Oct 2022, 21:30

What Ironmachine does not understand is that there were two Felix cases ( Spain entering the war was nothing more than an attempt to capture Gibraltar .)
Spain entering the war before Barbarossa would make Barbarossa impossible and if the capture of Gibraltar in May 1941 failed to convince Britain to give up (which it would do ),Germany had lost its only trump card .Thus a Spanish participation on the war as substitution for Barbarossa was a very bad decision .
If Felix was decided after Barbarossa, this would prove that a successful Barbarossa was a failure :the aim of Barbarossa was to convince Britain to give up , if Britain did not give up after the defeat of the USSR,than only would Felix have a sense .But this Felix, if successful would not convince Britain to give up . Here also Felix was a bad decision .
Spain knew this and this was the main reason for its refusal to join the Axis .
In both cases the Spanish participation on the war would be very bad for the Axis . And for Spain .
Such a participation would be nothing more than a suicide .

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

#145

Post by Takao » 08 Oct 2022, 22:12

ljadw wrote:
08 Oct 2022, 21:10
See your post 123 : the German ambassador in Spain said that it was impossible to fulfill the Spanish demands .
And there is also the evidence that Spain knew that it could not transport the German deliveries to the rest of Spain :Spain asked for railroad material and if it got it, Spain would say that this material was useless because of the different gauge ,that it could thus not transport the German deliveries and that it could thus not join the war .
And
ljadw wrote:
08 Oct 2022, 21:15
The German deliveries could go no farther than the border,because of the different gauges . But Spain wanted also railroad material ,which would be useless and Spain would blame the Germans .
WHY did Spain demand railroad material that it could not use ? To avoid entering the war and to blame the Germans .
Only proves that you do not know the meaning of the term "railroad gauge/track gauge."

Spain could order rails from Germany and use them with no problems.
Spain could order fishplates from Germany and use them with no problems.
Spain could order rail spikes from Germany and use them with no problems.
Spain could order signaling equipment from Germany and use them with no problems.
Spain could order most switch components from Germany and use them with no problems.
Spain could order railroad ties(sleepers), provided they were cut to the correct length from Germany and use them with no problems.

Why? Because none of them are affected by the railroad gauge.
Except for one item that needs to be cut to the correct length.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

#146

Post by ljadw » 09 Oct 2022, 08:13

This would not help Spain to transport the German deliveries overall in the country : half of Spanish locs had been lost and rails, fishplates, etc would not replace these locs .

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

#147

Post by ljadw » 09 Oct 2022, 08:29

It is more than doubtful if Spain needed what it demanded,as it did not get what it demanded .but still not collapsed .
What Germany, Britain ,the US sent to Spain during the war,had EVEN less importance than what US and Britain sent to the Soviets during the war .

On 14 September 1940 Hitler told Brauchitz and Halder that he would promise Spain everything it wanted even if he could not deliver it .
Hitler would PROMISE and he would LIE .And Spain knew it .And Hitler knew that Spain knew it . Hitler did not say that he would deliver what he could .Spain also lied and Hitler knew it and Spain knew that Hitler knew it .
We don't know if Spain needed what it demanded,and we don't know what it received .We only know that it survived the war and that the allied and German deliveries had no effect on this .
Last point : von Weiszsäcker ( deputy of Ribbentrop ) said that the entry of Spain had no practical value .
The entry of Spain would prevent Barbarossa which following the Germans was the only possibility to convince Britain to give up .And when Hitler signed the Barbarossa Weisung, no one took no more any attention to this problem .

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

#148

Post by Ironmachine » 09 Oct 2022, 08:39

ljadw wrote:The German deliveries could go no farther than the border,because of the different gauges . But Spain wanted also railroad material ,which would be useless and Spain would blame the Germans .
WHY did Spain demand railroad material that it could not use ? To avoid entering the war and to blame the Germans .
Fist, railroad material is much more than just locomotives and wagons. Second, the Germans were perfectly able to build locomotives and wagons for the Spanish gauge. In fact, many of the locomotives in service in Spain at the time had been built in other countries including, of course, Germany.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

#149

Post by Ironmachine » 09 Oct 2022, 08:46

ljadw wrote:What Ironmachine does not understand is that there were two Felix cases ( Spain entering the war was nothing more than an attempt to capture Gibraltar .)
What Ironmachine does not understand is why you are allowed to participate in this forum.
ljadw wrote:Spain entering the war before Barbarossa would make Barbarossa impossible and if the capture of Gibraltar in May 1941 failed to convince Britain to give up (which it would do ),Germany had lost its only trump card .Thus a Spanish participation on the war as substitution for Barbarossa was a very bad decision .
If Felix was decided after Barbarossa, this would prove that a successful Barbarossa was a failure :the aim of Barbarossa was to convince Britain to give up , if Britain did not give up after the defeat of the USSR,than only would Felix have a sense .But this Felix, if successful would not convince Britain to give up . Here also Felix was a bad decision .
Spain knew this and this was the main reason for its refusal to join the Axis .
In both cases the Spanish participation on the war would be very bad for the Axis . And for Spain .
Such a participation would be nothing more than a suicide .
Blah, blah, blah. Stop moving the posts and just show the evidence that supports your statement that "Spain knew that its demands could not be fullfillled and that's why they demanded them".
Last edited by Ironmachine on 09 Oct 2022, 09:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

#150

Post by Ironmachine » 09 Oct 2022, 09:01

ljadw wrote:It is more than doubtful if Spain needed what it demanded,as it did not get what it demanded .but still not collapsed .
Because it is just the same a neutral country that one that is involved in a world war. :lol:
ljadw wrote:What Germany, Britain ,the US sent to Spain during the war,had EVEN less importance than what US and Britain sent to the Soviets during the war .
What Germany, Britain, the US sent to Spain during the war was vitally important for the survival of the Spaniards during the war. All the oil, most of the food, etc. that Spain used during the war came from abroad.
ljadw wrote:On 14 September 1940 Hitler told Brauchitz and Halder that he would promise Spain everything it wanted even if he could not deliver it .
And still Hitler did not do that: he did not promise Spain everything. Not that it would have mattered, because Spanish leaders would have wanted more than just promises.
ljadw wrote:Hitler would PROMISE and he would LIE .And Spain knew it .And Hitler knew that Spain knew it . Hitler did not say that he would deliver what he could .Spain also lied and Hitler knew it and Spain knew that Hitler knew it .
You should know, you are the expert in lying.
ljadw wrote:We don't know if Spain needed what it demanded,and we don't know what it received .We only know that it survived the war and that the allied and German deliveries had no effect on this .
It's very, very difficult to make a more stupid claim than that. The Allied and German deliveries had no effect in Spain surviving the war? Seriously?
ljadw wrote:Last point : von Weiszsäcker ( deputy of Ribbentrop ) said that the entry of Spain had no practical value .
Other Germans had different opinions. The simple fact that Germany was negotiating the entry of Spain in the war clearly shows it had some value.
ljadw wrote:The entry of Spain would prevent Barbarossa which following the Germans was the only possibility to convince Britain to give up .And when Hitler signed the Barbarossa Weisung, no one took no more any attention to this problem .
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I can say it louder, but not more clearly: just show the evidence that supports your statement that "the Spaniards knew that its demands could not be fullfillled and that's why they demanded them". Anything else is just losing time.

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