Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

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Ironmachine
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 10 Oct 2022 15:08

ljadw wrote:The following is from the Avalon Project
The Spanish Government and the Axis
Note 6
Notes covering the interview between the Führer and Count Ciano in the Presence of the Reichs Foreign Minister and the Secretary of State Meissner in Berlin on September 28 1940

Hitler said the following
''Spanish Proposals were
1 Germany is to deliver for the coming year 400000-700000 tons of grains .
2 Germany is to deliver all the fuel
3 Germany is to deliver the lacking equipment for the army
4 Germany is to put up artillery and tanks, as well as special weapons and special troops for the conquest of Gibraltar
5 Germany is to give over all of Morocco and besides that,Oran,and is to help her get a border revision in the west of Rio de Oro
6 Spain is to propose to Germany, in return,her friendship .''
Hitler said also
'''...as a German one feels toward the Spanish almost like a Jew . ...''
The comments of Ciano were going in the same direction .
My questions
1 Was Hitler's comment wrong ?
2 Were the Spanish proposals realistic ?
1) Hitler's exposition of the Spanish demands is, while somewhat simplified, correct overall. As for his feelings toward Spain, he should know. So no, Hitler's comment was not wrong. The problem (for your) is that Hitler's comments has zero value with regards to the statements you made and failed to back up with evidence.
2) The Spanish proposals were very realistic... for Spain. You seem to think otherwise, which is not bad by itself, but it is just your opinion and you have repeatedly failed to show any evidence to support it when requested.
ljadw wrote:The answer on question 2 is NO :
Your answer on question 2 is no. You have repeatedly failed to show any evidence that the Spaniards of the time were making unrealistic proposals on purpose.
ljadw wrote:see point 5 : Hitler said that if he said yes on point 5 , France would resume the war on the side of Britain .
That was not a Spanish problem.
ljadw wrote:3 Why did Spain ask things who were impossible ?
Answer : to have an excuse for not entering the war .
Show any evidence of that. Your opinion is completely worthless.
The Spanish proposals would have as result (if Hitler accepted them ) that and Felix and Barbarossa would be cancelled/delayed .
That was not Spain's problem and have nothing to do with whether Spain was making unfulfillable demands as an excuse for not entering the war or not.
ljadw wrote:If Hitler did not accept them ,Felix would be cancelled .
That was not Spain's problem and have nothing to do with whether Spain was making unfulfillable demands as an excuse for not entering the war or not.
ljadw wrote:4 Did Spain know that their proposals were impossible for Germany to accept ?
That's the point, and you have repeatedly failed to provide any evidence to back up your opinion on the matter.
ljadw wrote:Answer : yes :
Your uninformed opinion is not a valid answer to that question.
ljadw wrote: they knew what the French reaction would be if Hitler would give Morocco and Oran to Spain .
That they knew what the possible French reaction would be if Hitler would give Morocco and Oran to Spain does not means that it was impossible for Hitler to give Morocco and Oran to Spain. In fact, it means that it was very possible, if costly.
ljadw wrote:Hitler knew what the French reactions would be ,thus Spain also knew it .
That Spain knew what the possible French reaction would be if Hitler would give Morocco and Oran to Spain does not means that Spain thought it was impossible that Hitler would give Morocco and Oran to Spain. In fact, what do you think would have been the French reaction if Spain invaded French Morocco? And anyway, Spain was ready to do it and the operation almost went on, so why would Spain think that Germany would never do it?

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Ironmachine
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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 10 Oct 2022 15:13

ljadw wrote:It has everything to do with Spain in WW2:in 1915 Italy entered the war after the Entente promised her a lot of things,as Trieste, a part of the Ottoman Empire . But after the war, these promises were not kept .
Spain would not make the same mistake in 1940 and wanted that the promises would be kept before she would enter the war .
In June 1940 Spain offered to join the war AT HER CONDITIONS, but did not join the war .It was only a feint .
In June 1940 Spain offered to join the war at her conditions, but those conditions were not fulfilled and Spain did not join the war. So you can't say it was only a feint. Only if the conditions were met and Spain still did not join the war you argument would have some value. As thing happened in OTL, you argument has no value. Even you should be able to understand this.
On second thought, I'm quite sure you won't be able to understand even such a basic argument. But let's hope for the better.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 10 Oct 2022 15:53

In 1915 Italy entered the war and the Entente promised her a lot of things after the war .But these promises were not kept .
Spain was not that naif :it would enter the war ,AFTER Germany had kept its promises .
Specific : it wanted first Morocco and Oran before it would enter the war . But it could get Morocco and Oran only after the war ,and than there was no reason to declare war on France .
Thus the demand for Morocco and Oran to be given to Spain by Germany, not by France , was only a deceptive feint .

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 10 Oct 2022 16:07

Ironmachine wrote:
10 Oct 2022 15:08
ljadw wrote:The following is from the Avalon Project
The Spanish Government and the Axis
Note 6
Notes covering the interview between the Führer and Count Ciano in the Presence of the Reichs Foreign Minister and the Secretary of State Meissner in Berlin on September 28 1940

Hitler said the following
''Spanish Proposals were
1 Germany is to deliver for the coming year 400000-700000 tons of grains .
2 Germany is to deliver all the fuel
3 Germany is to deliver the lacking equipment for the army
4 Germany is to put up artillery and tanks, as well as special weapons and special troops for the conquest of Gibraltar
5 Germany is to give over all of Morocco and besides that,Oran,and is to help her get a border revision in the west of Rio de Oro
6 Spain is to propose to Germany, in return,her friendship .''
Hitler said also
'''...as a German one feels toward the Spanish almost like a Jew . ...''
The comments of Ciano were going in the same direction .
My questions
1 Was Hitler's comment wrong ?
2 Were the Spanish proposals realistic ?
1) Hitler's exposition of the Spanish demands is, while somewhat simplified, correct overall. As for his feelings toward Spain, he should know. So no, Hitler's comment was not wrong. The problem (for your) is that Hitler's comments has zero value with regards to the statements you made and failed to back up with evidence.
2) The Spanish proposals were very realistic... for Spain. You seem to think otherwise, which is not bad by itself, but it is just your opinion and you have repeatedly failed to show any evidence to support it when requested.
ljadw wrote:The answer on question 2 is NO :
Your answer on question 2 is no. You have repeatedly failed to show any evidence that the Spaniards of the time were making unrealistic proposals on purpose.
ljadw wrote:see point 5 : Hitler said that if he said yes on point 5 , France would resume the war on the side of Britain .
That was not a Spanish problem.
ljadw wrote:3 Why did Spain ask things who were impossible ?
Answer : to have an excuse for not entering the war .
Show any evidence of that. Your opinion is completely worthless.
The Spanish proposals would have as result (if Hitler accepted them ) that and Felix and Barbarossa would be cancelled/delayed .
That was not Spain's problem and have nothing to do with whether Spain was making unfulfillable demands as an excuse for not entering the war or not.
ljadw wrote:If Hitler did not accept them ,Felix would be cancelled .
That was not Spain's problem and have nothing to do with whether Spain was making unfulfillable demands as an excuse for not entering the war or not.
ljadw wrote:4 Did Spain know that their proposals were impossible for Germany to accept ?
That's the point, and you have repeatedly failed to provide any evidence to back up your opinion on the matter.
ljadw wrote:Answer : yes :
Your uninformed opinion is not a valid answer to that question.
ljadw wrote: they knew what the French reaction would be if Hitler would give Morocco and Oran to Spain .
That they knew what the possible French reaction would be if Hitler would give Morocco and Oran to Spain does not means that it was impossible for Hitler to give Morocco and Oran to Spain. In fact, it means that it was very possible, if costly.
ljadw wrote:Hitler knew what the French reactions would be ,thus Spain also knew it .
That Spain knew what the possible French reaction would be if Hitler would give Morocco and Oran to Spain does not means that Spain thought it was impossible that Hitler would give Morocco and Oran to Spain. In fact, what do you think would have been the French reaction if Spain invaded French Morocco? And anyway, Spain was ready to do it and the operation almost went on, so why would Spain think that Germany would never do it?
Spain had not the means to invade Morocco /Algeria. Hitler said that it was impossible for Germany to force France to give Morocco to Spain or to conquer Morocco himself and than give it to Spain .
Spain knew that France would never give Morocco to Spain and that it could not conquer Morocco on itself . Thus they demanded that Hitler would do it .But Hitler said clearly that it was out of the question to force France or to do it himself .
Germany had as much possibility to conquer Morocco/Algeria as had Spain = NO CHANCE AT ALL .A German Overlord on the coasts of Morocco and Algeria was a phantasm,an illusion . If Spain could not do it ,and it could not,why could Germany do it ?
And Spain knew this ,but still it demanded that Germany would do it BEFORE it entered the war .

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 10 Oct 2022 16:08

Ironmachine wrote:
10 Oct 2022 15:13
ljadw wrote:It has everything to do with Spain in WW2:in 1915 Italy entered the war after the Entente promised her a lot of things,as Trieste, a part of the Ottoman Empire . But after the war, these promises were not kept .
Spain would not make the same mistake in 1940 and wanted that the promises would be kept before she would enter the war .
In June 1940 Spain offered to join the war AT HER CONDITIONS, but did not join the war .It was only a feint .
In June 1940 Spain offered to join the war at her conditions, but those conditions were not fulfilled and Spain did not join the war. So you can't say it was only a feint. Only if the conditions were met and Spain still did not join the war you argument would have some value. As thing happened in OTL, you argument has no value. Even you should be able to understand this.
On second thought, I'm quite sure you won't be able to understand even such a basic argument. But let's hope for the better.
It was a feint ,because these conditions could not be fulfilled .

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 10 Oct 2022 16:24

ljadw wrote:
10 Oct 2022 16:08
It was a feint ,because these conditions could not be fulfilled .
Germany could have fulfilled Spain's conditions. Hitler chose not to fulfill Spain's conditions.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 10 Oct 2022 16:57

ljadw wrote:
10 Oct 2022 16:07

Spain had not the means to invade Morocco /Algeria. Hitler said that it was impossible for Germany to force France to give Morocco to Spain or to conquer Morocco himself and than give it to Spain .
Spain knew that France would never give Morocco to Spain and that it could not conquer Morocco on itself . Thus they demanded that Hitler would do it .But Hitler said clearly that it was out of the question to force France or to do it himself .
Germany had as much possibility to conquer Morocco/Algeria as had Spain = NO CHANCE AT ALL .A German Overlord on the coasts of Morocco and Algeria was a phantasm,an illusion . If Spain could not do it ,and it could not,why could Germany do it ?
And Spain knew this ,but still it demanded that Germany would do it BEFORE it entered the war .
Hitler never said it was impossible for Germany to force France to hand over Morocco to Spain. Hitler CHOSE NOT TO.. Hitler's reasons for not doing so are in The Spanish Government and the Axis Note 6.

Germany invading French Morocco, just to hand over to Spain is a figment of your imagination.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 10 Oct 2022 20:48

If Germany could invade NA, it would had done it . It did not ,thus it could not do it .
Spain wanted Hitler to invade Morocco /or Hitler forcing France to give up Morocco and than give it to Spain .
See point 5 .

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by ljadw » 10 Oct 2022 20:58

Takao wrote:
10 Oct 2022 16:24
ljadw wrote:
10 Oct 2022 16:08
It was a feint ,because these conditions could not be fulfilled .
Germany could have fulfilled Spain's conditions. Hitler chose not to fulfill Spain's conditions.
Hitler could not send 500000 men to invade Morocco over the sea or through Spain .He had no fleet in the Mediterranean ,
FYI : the distance Madrid-Agadir is some 6000 km .
Spain could not invade Morocco and demanded that Germany would do it and give it to Spain ,and AFTER this,when the war was over, Spain would declare war on France .
And, not only could Spain not invade Morocco, but if it received Morocco from France or Germany , it could even not conserve Morocco .
See what happened to the Spanish Army in North Morocco .
Spain asked only Morocco to have an excuse to be able to say to Germany : we can't enter the war .

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Takao » 10 Oct 2022 21:41

Please show these German plans to invade Morocco

Please show where Franco asks Hitler to invade Morocco

Put up or shut up time. I call your bluff.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 11 Oct 2022 06:58

ljadw wrote:In 1915 Italy entered the war and the Entente promised her a lot of things after the war .But these promises were not kept .
Again: what happened to Italy in 1915 is of no significance here.
ljadw wrote:Spain was not that naif :it would enter the war ,AFTER Germany had kept its promises .
Yes. And this in no way supports your argument.
ljadw wrote:Specific : it wanted first Morocco and Oran before it would enter the war . But it could get Morocco and Oran only after the war ,and than there was no reason to declare war on France .
No way. For this to be a valid argument, you would have to prove, for example, that Spain would not be satisfied with a secret agreement with German that would grant Morocco and Oran to Spain after a conclusion of the war. Good luck trying to prove that!
ljadw wrote:Thus the demand for Morocco and Oran to be given to Spain by Germany, not by France , was only a deceptive feint .
No. A victorious Germany would be more than able to achieve a new colonial order that will grant Morocco and Oran to Spain. Thus Spain was justified in asking Germany, and not France, for Morocco and Oran.
If you claim that the demand was just a deceptive feint, just prove it! Show evidence! Your opinion is proof of nothing.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 11 Oct 2022 07:12

ljadw wrote:Spain had not the means to invade Morocco /Algeria.
Well, they have the means to invade, though not to conquest all of Morocco and certainly not Algeria. Maybe that's why they asked Germany for those territories?
ljadw wrote:Hitler said that it was impossible for Germany to force France to give Morocco to Spain or to conquer Morocco himself and than give it to Spain .
Impossible it wasn't, regardless of Hitler's opinion. That it would be not in the interest of Germany, that's another question.
ljadw wrote:Spain knew that France would never give Morocco to Spain and that it could not conquer Morocco on itself .Thus they demanded that Hitler would do it .
That' pretty obvious.
ljadw wrote:But Hitler said clearly that it was out of the question to force France or to do it himself .
That's not the same than saying it was impossible, and previously you posted that what Hitler said was that it was impossible. Make up your mind before posting, because you are posting contradicting statements.
ljadw wrote:Germany had as much possibility to conquer Morocco/Algeria as had Spain = NO CHANCE AT ALL .A German Overlord on the coasts of Morocco and Algeria was a phantasm,an illusion .
There was no need for a German Overlord.
ljadw wrote: If Spain could not do it ,and it could not,why could Germany do it ?
Is this a serious argument? Really? That's your intelligence level? 8O
ljadw wrote:And Spain knew this ,but still it demanded that Germany would do it BEFORE it entered the war .
First, Spain did not demand that Germany invade Morocco or Argelia before it entered the war. Spain just demanded that Morocco and Oran would be given to Spain. That doesn't mean that Spain would not be satisfied with an agreement signed with Germany (and Italy) that will grant those territories to Spain after the victorious conclusion of the war.
If you have evidence that only the physical possession of those territories would have satisfied the Spanish demands, show it. If you don't, again we are left with only your opinion, and you opinion, as have been repeatedly proved in this forum, has zero value.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 11 Oct 2022 07:21

ljadw wrote:
Ironmachine wrote:
ljadw wrote:It has everything to do with Spain in WW2:in 1915 Italy entered the war after the Entente promised her a lot of things,as Trieste, a part of the Ottoman Empire . But after the war, these promises were not kept .
Spain would not make the same mistake in 1940 and wanted that the promises would be kept before she would enter the war .
In June 1940 Spain offered to join the war AT HER CONDITIONS, but did not join the war .It was only a feint .
In June 1940 Spain offered to join the war at her conditions, but those conditions were not fulfilled and Spain did not join the war. So you can't say it was only a feint. Only if the conditions were met and Spain still did not join the war you argument would have some value. As thing happened in OTL, you argument has no value. Even you should be able to understand this.
On second thought, I'm quite sure you won't be able to understand even such a basic argument. But let's hope for the better.
It was a feint ,because these conditions could not be fulfilled .
I was fully right: you couldn't understand even the most basic reasoning.
Let's try again:
1) Whether Germany could or could not fulfill the Spanish demands (and I agree that it couldn't), has nothing to do with whether the demands were a feint or not. Mucho more so when there is not a clear consensus on whether Germany could or could not fulfill them.
2) The only way those demands could be qualified as a feint is if Spain knew that Germany could not fulfill the Spanish demands and still make those demands on purpose.
3) AFAIK, no one, and certainly not you, have ever proved that the Spanish authorities knew that their demands could not be fulfilled by Germany.
Want to show the demands were a faint? Show your evidence that the Spaniards knew they could not be fulfilled by Germany and still kept them. But as I have repeatedly asked you to show that evidence, and you repeatedly have failed to do so, I don't hope you can show anything.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 11 Oct 2022 07:24

ljadw wrote:If Germany could invade NA, it would had done it . It did not ,thus it could not do it .
Everytime I think that you have reached the bottom of your idiocy, you go one step beyond. It's truly fascinating
Last edited by Ironmachine on 11 Oct 2022 08:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why Franco didnt join the war in Hendaye ?

Post by Ironmachine » 11 Oct 2022 07:37

ljadw wrote:Hitler could not send 500000 men to invade Morocco over the sea or through Spain .He had no fleet in the Mediterranean ,
And why would Hitler have to send 500000 men to invade Morocco?
ljadw wrote:FYI : the distance Madrid-Agadir is some 6000 km .
Actually, the distance Madrid-Agadir is about 1520 km by road and about 1200 in a straight line. Why are I not surprised that you are lying again? :lol:
By the way, the distance Berlin-Varsovia is
ljadw wrote:Spain could not invade Morocco and demanded that Germany would do it and give it to Spain ,and AFTER this,when the war was over, Spain would declare war on France .
And why would Spain declare war on France after obtaining Morocco? You may be crazy, but the Spanish authorities of the time were not.
ljadw wrote:And, not only could Spain not invade Morocco, but if it received Morocco from France or Germany , it could even not conserve Morocco .
See what happened to the Spanish Army in North Morocco .
Yes, what happened to the Spanish Army in North Morocco? AFAIK, Spain conserved Spanish Morocco until the independence of Morocco, so your argument seems to be a bit stupid.
ljadw wrote:Spain asked only Morocco to have an excuse to be able to say to Germany : we can't enter the war .
That's only your opinion, and your opinion, without evidence to support it, has no value as proof. Back up your claim! Show evidence!

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