Latest round of Churchill bashing

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Re: Latest round of Churchill bashing

#31

Post by Michael Kenny » 10 Nov 2022, 08:00

Latest from TIK. 45 mins of ' Nazi = Commie' claptrap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr9TUcW ... TIKhistory

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Re: Latest round of Churchill bashing

#32

Post by wm » 10 Nov 2022, 12:57

The earlier video was an absurdly simple explanation of a complex story - "Churchill was an idiot."
Now, it's an absurdly complicated explanation of a simple story.
Socialism - centralized ownership and economic decision-making;
capitalism - decentralized ownership and economic decision-making.


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Re: Latest round of Churchill bashing

#33

Post by Imad » 10 Nov 2022, 18:34

Dupplin Muir wrote:
09 Nov 2022, 15:59
The problem here is that the Bengal Famine has been blown out of all proportion - primarily because Indian Nationalists did a copy-and-paste of all the lies told by Irish Nationalists about the Potato Famine. This included grossly exaggerating the number of deaths by counting everyone who died in Ireland during the 1840's as famine deaths: someone who died of cancer, or stroke, or heart-attack, or diabetes, or tuberculosis, three years before the famine started is still counted as a victim of the famine. Similarly, Indian Nationalists are just counting all deaths instead of deducting those that would have occurred anyway. The population of Ireland was about 8 million, so you'd expect well over 100,000 deaths each year to natural causes even if the famine had never happened. However, count all those as down to the potato-blight and lo-and-behold you have the 'million deaths' from hunger.

Also in Ireland some people - Catholics as well as Protestants - chose to sell food abroad, but the Nationalists don't want to acknowledge this because it would imply that the Irish were partly responsible for the deaths - and they can't have that as it destroys the myth that the Irish were eternal victims - so they dreamt up the ridiculous claim that the British 'took food out of Ireland', and of course the Indian Nationalists adopted this dishonesty too. The real figures were:

1845: 28,000 tons imported, 513,000 tons exported. Net exports = 485,000 tons
1847: 889,000 tons imported, 146,000 tons exported. Net imports = 743,000 tons

So basically instead of the British removing food they were actually pumping huge quantities into Ireland, which is why less than 20,000 people died. Simultaneously there was famine all across Europe, and far more people died in Belgium, the Austro-Hungarian Empire and elsewhere, than in Ireland. There was a good reason that 1848 became 'The Year of Revolutions' - hunger.

Interestingly the Indian Nobel prize winner in Economics Amartya Sen has done a detailed analysis of the Bengal Famine. He showed that the problem in Bengal in late '42 to mid '43 was not shortage of food. It was food prices being artificially inflated because of hoarding and wartime speculation by greedy Indian merchants.

Also, by the provisions of the Government of India Act of 1935 the responsibility for famine relief devolved upon locally administered bodies like the Muslim League which was ruling Bengal at the time. Needless to say, they made a shambles of it.

The Indian Ocean and the Bay of Bengal were crawling with Axis submarines and surface raiders, who sank a total of 873,000 tonnes of merchant shipping between January '42 and May '43 so that compounded the problem.

Churchill did appeal to Canada, the US, and Australia to help but only Australia responded with a shipment of wheat in July '43 but it was too little too late. Britain's own merchant navy was strapped in the Arctic Convoys business. The Soviet Union was suffering far more horribly than India.

As you said, most of the propaganda is from fanatical Indian nationalists and their mouthpieces in Leftist circles in Western countries. Listening to these people you'd think Churchill had nothing better to do with his time than exterminating Bengalis in the middle of a global war.

Moreover it was Churchill who replaced Lord Linlithgow with Field Marshal Wavell as Viceroy of India in 1943 and it was the energetic steps taken by the latter that brought the famine to a halt. It could this be argued that Churchill indirectly helped end the famine.

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Re: Latest round of Churchill bashing

#34

Post by CogCalgary » 14 Nov 2022, 14:59

Reasonable enough.Kenya was the theater that removed any pretense of a colony being the White Man's Burden.

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Re: Latest round of Churchill bashing

#35

Post by Stoat Coat » 14 Nov 2022, 19:41

Michael Kenny wrote:
10 Nov 2022, 08:00
Latest from TIK. 45 mins of ' Nazi = Commie' claptrap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr9TUcW ... TIKhistory
TIK got called out for his handling of the table talks too
https://thehistoricalreview.com/?p=1556

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Re: Latest round of Churchill bashing

#36

Post by Michael Kenny » 14 Nov 2022, 22:20

Stoat Coat wrote:
14 Nov 2022, 19:41


TIK got called out.......................
Like many here I watch YouTube clips about subjects where I do not have a good grasp of all the facts and literature. If the presented/narrator sounds confident and references a lot of 'facts' then it is easy to assume he is indeed and 'expert' on the subject. As the subject is not that important to me I do not check the references or sources and take it on trust. Very quickly I learned, through watching films by the same 'experts', in areas where I do know the subject, that they are not to be taken at their word and they do get things wrong. Sometimes so wrong to the point of fabrication. There are a lot of outright frauds on YouTube and in my eyes the more you make up then the more followers you get and the more 'great film mate' praise in the comments. Mark Felton is probably the worst in this area. He does no more than Google a subject and then slap together a quick film and his followers have no way of checking or correcting his lies. That type of audience (heavily populated by Gamers) are low-information followers who by and large never find out how wrong they are. It is only the unfortunate few who make the mistake of reference Felton on forums like AHF who discover the magnitude of their error.
In short I would say 90% of YouTube WW2 historical comment content is worthless. That even people you normally consider experts are only given that status because you have no way of checking them out. I have seen films by people with University Degrees who simply do not know what they are talking about. This is no bar in todays world where those who have fixed views will seek out this rubbish and give it the illusion of authority. This should come as no surprise in a world where half the online population in developed nations appear to be certifiably insane.

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Re: Latest round of Churchill bashing

#37

Post by wm » 15 Nov 2022, 23:17

Videos and movies are time-inefficient means of learning history anyway.

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Re: Latest round of Churchill bashing

#38

Post by CogCalgary » 17 Nov 2022, 21:16

Movies are the worst.

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Re: Latest round of Churchill bashing

#39

Post by mil-archive » 17 Jan 2023, 13:31

Dupplin Muir wrote:
09 Nov 2022, 15:59
The problem here is that the Bengal Famine has been blown out of all proportion - primarily because Indian Nationalists did a copy-and-paste of all the lies told by Irish Nationalists about the Potato Famine. This included grossly exaggerating the number of deaths by counting everyone who died in Ireland during the 1840's as famine deaths: someone who died of cancer, or stroke, or heart-attack, or diabetes, or tuberculosis, three years before the famine started is still counted as a victim of the famine. Similarly, Indian Nationalists are just counting all deaths instead of deducting those that would have occurred anyway. The population of Ireland was about 8 million, so you'd expect well over 100,000 deaths each year to natural causes even if the famine had never happened. However, count all those as down to the potato-blight and lo-and-behold you have the 'million deaths' from hunger.

Also in Ireland some people - Catholics as well as Protestants - chose to sell food abroad, but the Nationalists don't want to acknowledge this because it would imply that the Irish were partly responsible for the deaths - and they can't have that as it destroys the myth that the Irish were eternal victims - so they dreamt up the ridiculous claim that the British 'took food out of Ireland', and of course the Indian Nationalists adopted this dishonesty too. The real figures were:

1845: 28,000 tons imported, 513,000 tons exported. Net exports = 485,000 tons
1847: 889,000 tons imported, 146,000 tons exported. Net imports = 743,000 tons

So basically instead of the British removing food they were actually pumping huge quantities into Ireland, which is why less than 20,000 people died. Simultaneously there was famine all across Europe, and far more people died in Belgium, the Austro-Hungarian Empire and elsewhere, than in Ireland. There was a good reason that 1848 became 'The Year of Revolutions' - hunger.
Hello, do you have a credible contemporary historian who puts the death toll from the Irish famine at 20,000 dead ?

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Re: Latest round of Churchill bashing

#40

Post by mil-archive » 17 Jan 2023, 14:09

Re the claim that less than 20,000 people died in the Irish famine I would point you to this:
It is not known exactly how many people died during the period of the famine, although it is believed that more died from disease than from starvation.[1] State registration of births, marriages, or deaths had not yet begun, and records kept by the Catholic Church are incomplete.[fn 1] One possible estimate has been reached by comparing the expected population with the eventual numbers in the 1850s. A census taken in 1841 recorded a population of 8,175,124. A census immediately after the famine in 1851 counted 6,552,385, a drop of over 1.5 million in 10 years. The census commissioners estimated that, at the normal rate of population increase, the population in 1851 should have grown to just over 9 million if the famine had not occurred.[3]

On the in-development Great Irish Famine Online resource, produced by the Geography department of University College Cork, the population of Ireland section states, that together with the census figures being called low, before the famine it reads that "it is now generally believed" that over 8.75 million people populated the island of Ireland prior to it striking.[4]

In 1851, the census commissioners collected information on the number who died in each family since 1841, and the cause, season, and year of death. They recorded 21,770 total deaths from starvation in the previous decade and 400,720 deaths from diseases. Listed diseases were fever, diphtheria, dysentery, cholera, smallpox, and influenza, with the first two being the main killers (222,021 and 93,232). The commissioners acknowledged that their figures were incomplete and that the true number of deaths was probably higher:

The greater the amount of destitution of mortality ... the less will be the amount of recorded deaths derived through any household form;—for not only were whole families swept away by disease ... but whole villages were effaced from off the land.

Later historians agree that the 1851 death tables "were flawed and probably under-estimated the level of mortality".[5][6] The combination of institutional and figures provided by individuals gives "an incomplete and biased count" of fatalities during the famine.[7] Cormac Ó Gráda, referencing the work of W. A. MacArthur,[8] writes that specialists have long known that the Irish death tables were inaccurate,[9] and undercounted the number of deaths.[10]

S. H. Cousens's estimate of 800,000 deaths relied heavily on retrospective information contained in the 1851 census and elsewhere,[11] and is now regarded as too low.[12][13] Modern historian Joseph Lee says "at least 800,000",[14] and R. F. Foster estimates that "at least 775,000 died, mostly through disease, including cholera in the latter stages of the holocaust". He further notes that "a recent sophisticated computation estimates excess deaths from 1846 to 1851 as between 1,000,000 and 1,500,000 ... after a careful critique of this, other statisticians arrive at a figure of 1,000,000".[fn 2]

Joel Mokyr's estimates at an aggregated county level range from 1.1 million to 1.5 million deaths between 1846 and 1851. Mokyr produced two sets of data which contained an upper-bound and lower-bound estimate, which showed not much difference in regional patterns.[16][12] The true figure is likely to lie between the two extremes of half and one and a half million, and the most widely accepted estimate is one million.[17][18]

Decline in population 1841–1851 (%)[19]
Leinster Munster Ulster Connacht Ireland
15.3 22.5 15.7 28.8 20

Another area of uncertainty lies in the descriptions of disease given by tenants as to the cause of their relatives' deaths.[12] Though the 1851 census has been rightly criticised as underestimating the true extent of mortality, it does provide a framework for the medical history of the Great Famine. The diseases that badly affected the population fell into two categories:[20] famine-induced diseases and diseases of nutritional deficiency. Of the nutritional deficiency diseases, the most commonly experienced were starvation and marasmus, as well as a condition at the time called dropsy. Dropsy (oedema) was a popular name given for the symptoms of several diseases, one of which, kwashiorkor, is associated with starvation.[20]

However, the greatest mortality was not from nutritional deficiency diseases, but from famine-induced ailments.[20][21] The malnourished are very vulnerable to infections; therefore, these were more severe when they occurred. Measles, diphtheria, diarrhoea, tuberculosis, most respiratory infections, whooping cough, many intestinal parasites, and cholera were all strongly conditioned by nutritional status. Potentially lethal diseases, such as smallpox and influenza, were so virulent that their spread was independent of nutrition. The best example of this phenomenon was fever, which exacted the greatest death toll. In the popular mind, as well as medical opinion, fever and famine were closely related.[22] Social dislocation—the congregation of the hungry at soup kitchens, food depots, and overcrowded workhouses—created conditions that were ideal for spreading infectious diseases such as typhus, typhoid, and relapsing fever.[21] [20]

Diarrhoeal diseases were the result of poor hygiene, bad sanitation, and dietary changes. The concluding attack on a population incapacitated by famine was delivered by Asiatic cholera, which had visited Ireland briefly in the 1830s. In the following decade, it spread uncontrollably across Asia, through Europe, and into Britain, finally reaching Ireland in 1849.[20] Some scholars estimate that the population of Ireland was reduced by 20–25%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

There is another example here of 20K dead but that is solely from those who died on the famine ships to Canada during a single year :

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-sty ... -1.2870773

Going back to the thread topic, if you leave aside WWI mistakes and WW2 mistakes he also has a record in Ireland and indirectly played an important role in Irish independence.

If you take it that (very broadly speaking) Nationalist Ireland had 10% people who loved the crown, 10% who would never submit and a huge majority who sat somewhere in the middle and didn't care much either way Churchill created the conditions that turned the middle firmly to the extreme. In addition to the general population this also led to creating intelligence wins for republicans from moderates within the British administration on the ground in Ireland.

There is an interesting article on this subject here which includes several relevant points. I would include this in the list of his negative column.

If the British had held on rather than let Churchill pour petrol on the flames to put out the fire then they may well have seen through the storm and had Ireland in check up to WW2.

The ports, airspace and waters & military manpower could have put a different complexion on things. My view on Churchill would be that it has to be on balance and not on the basis of military mistakes. The value in having a leader who became a great orator in wartime was often worth more than purely military ability.

https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/hist ... ns-ireland
Winston Churchill ordered Black and Tans into Ireland in 1920
Sending the murderous mob was the fatal mistake that drove Irish opposition to Britain to new heights.

Winston Churchill, British Secretary of State for War, sent the Black and Tans into Ireland on March 25, 1920. It was a fatal mistake by the British that drove Irish opposition to British rule to new heights.

Churchill and the war cabinet were completely unable to come to terms with the rise of Irish republicanism in the wake of the 1916 Rising. Indeed, they put the War of Independence down to thugs and fanatics. They learned nothing from the 1918 election which saw Sinn Fein win 73 percent of the vote in the 32-county election.

Read more: RIC police force should never be honored given their savage past

The government was also filled with unionist sympathizers, Churchill among them, who had stood idly by while Unionists armed themselves and carried out pogroms. Their attention was completely on the aftermath of the Great War and Ireland was an utter nuisance.

The Black and Tans, who arrived in Ireland for the first time on March 25, 1920, were Churchill’s last roll of the dice, a desperate attempt to defeat the Irish rebellion.

The Black and Tans and the Auxiliaries, another murderous bunch, would instead blacken Britain’s reputation worldwide. Millions of Irish and Irish Americans were raised on stories of the Black and Tans' atrocities in Ireland during the War of Independence. This includes former Vice President Joe Biden, by his own account.

The Black and Tans were a force of temporary constables recruited to assist the Royal Irish Constabulary in maintaining control over the IRA during the Irish War of Independence. They were generally thought of as the scum of the British system - British ex-soldiers, many ex-prisoners, some turned psychopaths who formed an evil and murderous militia.

The intent was clear as a commanding officer Lt. Colonel Gerald Smyth made clear in an address to the first recruits, Smyth had lost an arm in the Great War and was a well-known drunkard with fierce unionist sympathies. He stated:

“Should the order "Hands Up" not be immediately obeyed, shoot and shoot with effect. If the persons approaching a patrol carry their hands in their pockets, or are in any way suspicious looking, shoot them down. You may make mistakes occasionally and innocent persons may be shot, but that cannot be helped, and you are bound to get the right parties some time.

The more you shoot, the better I will like you, and I assure you no policeman will get into trouble for shooting any man' ... hunger-strikers will be allowed to die in jail, the more the merrier. Some of them have died already and a damn bad job they were not all allowed to die.

As a matter of fact, some of them have already been dealt with in a manner their friends will never hear about. An emigrant ship left an Irish port for a foreign port lately with lots of Sinn Feiners on board, I assure you men it will never land. That is nearly all I have to say to you. General Tudor and myself, want your assistance in carrying out this scheme and wiping out Sinn Fein. Any man who is prepared to be a hindrance rather than a help to us, had better leave the job at once."

That was too much for an Irish-born recruit.

After his speech, Sligo-born Constable Jeremiah Mee stepped forward and addressed Smyth saying:

“By your accent I take it you are an Englishman and, in your ignorance, forget that you are addressing Irishmen.”

He then removed his cap, belt, bayonet, and gun, laid them on a table, and continued, “these too are English, take them as a present from me and to hell with you, you are a murderer.”

Smyth ordered his arrest but many of the other constables present warned that "the room would run red with blood" if Mee was touched. Thirteen resigned on the spot. The affair became known as the “Listowel Mutiny”.

Mee returned to Sligo and joined the IRA, working closely with Michael Collins. General Henry Tudor, himself a big supporter of reprisals was reputedly horrified by Smyth's remarks (which were published in the Irish Bulletin of 9 July) and placed the incident on report.

Within 24 hours of this speech being made, a copy was in the hands of the Irish Republican Brotherhood. The content of this talk was delivered to Michael Collins by one of the R.I.C. men who were present.

On it was written: "Now Men" justice should be swift and ruthless. (signed) L---------. (illegible scribble). By 24 June, a transcript had been sent to every I.R.B. unit in the country. (Pat Purcell Papers).

Smyth would pay dearly for his outrageous comments.

Smyth's order marked him for attention from the IRA. He subsequently returned to Cork and took lodgings at the Cork & County Club, an Anglo-Irish social club. On the evening of 17 July 1920, he was in the smoking-room when a six-man IRA team led by Dan "Sandow" O'Donovan entered and allegedly said to him, "Colonel, were not your orders to shoot on sight? Well, you are in sight now, so prepare."

Colonel Smyth jumped to his feet before being riddled with bullets. Despite being shot twice in the head, once through the heart and twice through the chest, the Colonel staggered to the passage where he dropped dead. He was 34 years old.

Colonel Gerald Smyth was buried at Banbridge, County Down on 20 July 1920. His funeral was followed by a three-day pogrom against local Roman Catholic homes and businesses. One Protestant man was shot by the RIC and killed, and three Irish nationalists were convicted of firearms offenses.

As was clear from that pogrom in the North bad and all as the Black and Tans were they were not as bad as the Ulster Special Constabulary.

In his book about the era, "1920-1922 The Outrages" by Pearse Lawlor, published by Mercier Press, he makes it clear that the worst of all groups, including the Black and Tans, were the Ulster Special Constabulary.

Lawlor discusses the numerous atrocities they carried out. He covers the pogroms against Catholics in at least three major towns led by an off-duty Ulster Special Constabulary, later known as the 'B' specials, and they leave even the Black and Tans in the halfpenny place when it comes to murder and mayhem.

Almost all revolutions are born in spilled blood, and the Irish fight was no different. Winston Churchill decided to unleash the dogs of war

They began their reign of terror at the behest of Winston Churchill on March 25th, 1920. It was one of Ireland’s darkest hours.

Read more: The first Black and Tans officially arrived in Ireland on this day in 1920

This British Pathe footage shows people displaced and the destruction in Balbriggan, north county Dublin, caused by the Black and Tans:

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Re: Latest round of Churchill bashing

#41

Post by CogCalgary » 17 Jan 2023, 15:20

Ulster Special Constabulary vs Black and Tans
Black and Tans,Northern Ireland>Palestine >Kenya

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Re: Latest round of Churchill bashing

#42

Post by paulrward » 20 Jan 2023, 18:36

Hello All ;


We read in History's pages, of the heroes of great fame
The deeds they've done, the battles won, and how they made their name
But the boys who made the history, for the Orange, White, and Green
Were the boys who died in Dublin town in nineteen sixteen !

Some of them came from Kerry, and some from county Claire
From Dublin, Wicklow, Donegal, and some from old Kildare
And some from a land across the sea, from Boston and New Yor
k
But thе boys who licked the Black and Tans werе the boys of the county Cork !

In Ireland's rebel counties, our heroes fought and died
Tom Barry and his gallant crew fill Irish hearts with pride
From Skibbereen to Bandon, to Bantry by the Sea
There brave young Charlie Hurley fought for Irish liberty !

Some of them came from Kerry, some from county Claire
From Dublin, Wicklow, Donegal, and some from old Kildare
And some from a land across the sea, from Boston and New York
But the boys who licked the Black and Tans were the boys of the county Cork


Now Cork gave us Mick Sweeney, a martyr he did die
And Wicklow gave us Dwyer in those days long gone by
And Dublin gave us Padraig Pearse, McBride, and Cathal Brugha
And Scotland gave James Connolly to lead old Ireland through !

Some of them came from Kerry, some from county Claire
From Dublin, Wicklow, Donegal, and some from old Kildare
And some from a land across the Sea, from
Boston and New York
But the boys who licked the Black and Tans were the boys of the county Cork !


We seem to be divided, but I really don't know why
We have brave men and heroes, and for Ireland they would die
So why not get together and join in unity ?
In the north, the south, the east, the west, and set old Ireland free !


Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward
Information not shared, is information lost
Voices that are banned, are voices who cannot share information....
Discussions that are silenced, are discussions that will occur elsewhere !

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Re: Latest round of Churchill bashing

#43

Post by CogCalgary » 21 Jan 2023, 04:14

paulrward wrote:
20 Jan 2023, 18:36
Hello All ;


We read in History's pages, of the heroes of great fame
The deeds they've done, the battles won, and how they made their name
But the boys who made the history, for the Orange, White, and Green
Were the boys who died in Dublin town in nineteen sixteen !

Some of them came from Kerry, and some from county Claire
From Dublin, Wicklow, Donegal, and some from old Kildare
And some from a land across the sea, from Boston and New Yor
k
But thе boys who licked the Black and Tans werе the boys of the county Cork !

In Ireland's rebel counties, our heroes fought and died
Tom Barry and his gallant crew fill Irish hearts with pride
From Skibbereen to Bandon, to Bantry by the Sea
There brave young Charlie Hurley fought for Irish liberty !

Some of them came from Kerry, some from county Claire
From Dublin, Wicklow, Donegal, and some from old Kildare
And some from a land across the sea, from Boston and New York
But the boys who licked the Black and Tans were the boys of the county Cork


Now Cork gave us Mick Sweeney, a martyr he did die
And Wicklow gave us Dwyer in those days long gone by
And Dublin gave us Padraig Pearse, McBride, and Cathal Brugha
And Scotland gave James Connolly to lead old Ireland through !

Some of them came from Kerry, some from county Claire
From Dublin, Wicklow, Donegal, and some from old Kildare
And some from a land across the Sea, from
Boston and New York
But the boys who licked the Black and Tans were the boys of the county Cork !


We seem to be divided, but I really don't know why
We have brave men and heroes, and for Ireland they would die
So why not get together and join in unity ?
In the north, the south, the east, the west, and set old Ireland free !


Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward
Well if they made a song about kicking their arse they must have been pretty tough.

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Churchill bashing

#44

Post by rcocean » 28 Jan 2023, 03:17

Churchill has a lot to be "Bashed" for. Its difficult to point to many decisions in WW II, and say "Thank God for Churchill. The British generals and admirals would've made a mess of things except for him".

On a lot of smaller issues, he was able to correct them, but on the whole, he was probably a net negative. Probably his greatest service to the Allied cause was his ability to "Handle" FDR. First, by seeming to go along with "Roundup" and "Sledgehammer" and then at the critical moment, convincing FDR that it was impossible and "Torch" was the correct strategy. And secondly, by delaying D-Day till 1944.

Sadly, he couldn't keep FDR from doing bonehead moves like "Unconditional Surrender", pissing off De Gaulle, or pushing the criminal "Morganthau Plan".

As for his popularity with the UK public. Churchill was a massive warmonger. who championed two world wars that cost the British Empire almost a million men and accomplished nothing for the average Englishman. All the middle/working class got out of it was a large tax bill, and furneral expenses.

It was also quite obvious to the average Brit that Churchill loved war, and didn't mind if quite a few of them got killed just for the hell of it. In terms of domestic policy, he wasn't known for his love of income or social equality. He was a Dick Cheney neocon in many ways.
Last edited by rcocean on 28 Jan 2023, 03:24, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Latest round of Churchill bashing

#45

Post by rcocean » 28 Jan 2023, 03:21

Richard Burton, Son a welsh coal-miner and WW II Vet, hated Churchill and wrote a NYT Op-ed attacking him. The idea that only 'Young Britons" disliked him is a myth.

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