Untrained infantry replacements (1944)

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Untrained infantry replacements (1944)

#16

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Mar 2021, 01:05

Hi Art,

So in this particular case about 38% of men had only 10 days training when sent to their units?

Do we know how typical this was?

Presumably enlisting locals was only possible when the front was advancing, which restricts the time periods when this option was available and the fronts on which it was possible.

It also presumably had to stop once all Soviet territory was liberated.

This does look particularly like a Ukrainian, Belarusian and Baltic States phenomenon in 1943-44.

Cheers,

Sid.

Art
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Re: Untrained infantry replacements (1944)

#17

Post by Art » 30 Mar 2021, 10:37

Sid Guttridge wrote:
29 Mar 2021, 01:05
Do we know how typical this was?
Conscription in the frontline area was conducted on the wide scale, the training cycle was frequently rather short. Unfortunately any general statistics (military experience of conscripts, lengths of training) is not available. I suppose, a lot of work with documents of various levels is needed to have a more or less complete picture.
It also presumably had to stop once all Soviet territory was liberated.
There were hundreds of thousands men of military age (either POWs or displaced civilians) outside the Soviet territory. A considerable part of them were inducted to the military before the war ended.

Continuing with pieces of information: constriction in the 7 Guards Army area (Ukraine) by 13 April 1944. Total 21,103 men conscripted, incl. 7362 fir for combat units with military training, 5994 fit for combat units without military training, 1426 recruits of the 1925's cohort, 2231 fit for service units, 4090 former military personnel (POWs etc). Of them 8,063 went to rifle divisions, 13,040 - to the 190 Replacement Rifle Regiment.
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=132344496
Compare with the history of the 190 Regiment quoted above
viewtopic.php?p=2333457#p2333457


Sid Guttridge
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Re: Untrained infantry replacements (1944)

#18

Post by Sid Guttridge » 30 Mar 2021, 11:33

Hi Art,

Two points that are new to me and about which I would like to know more:

1) The recovery of POWs. My impression was that most Soviet POWs were either starved to death in 1941-42 or moved to the Reich as labourers. How many were kept in occupied Soviet territory? What were they used for, if anything? How many were released in time to be re-enlisted by the end of the war? I presume these included those held by the Romanians and Finns, which must have totalled around 100,000.

2) The enlistment of DPs and other foreigners. How common was this? The Poles, Romanians, Bulgars and Yugoslavs fielded their own armies, so I presume they are not included? This would only leave Hungarians and strays.

Many thanks,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 30 Mar 2021, 22:17, edited 1 time in total.

Art
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Re: Untrained infantry replacements (1944)

#19

Post by Art » 30 Mar 2021, 18:30

Sid Guttridge wrote:
30 Mar 2021, 11:33

1) The recovery of POWs. My impression was that most Soviet POWs were either starved to death in 1941-42 or moved to the Reich as labourers. How many were kept in occupied Soviet territory? What were they used for, if anything?
Many thousands were actually released form German captivity (especially Ukrainians), moreover there was a number of POWs in the Ostheer zone, where they were employed as labor force. For example, see a story down the link:
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=229803

2) The enlistment of DPs and other foreigners. How common was this? The Poles, Romanians, Bulgars and Yugoslavs fielded their own armies, so I presume they are not included? This would only leave Hungarians and strays.
I mean Soviet citizens who were POWs and displaced persons.

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Re: Untrained infantry replacements (1944)

#20

Post by Dann Falk » 30 Mar 2021, 18:43

Great info Art. I was not aware of the 132344496 document. Much Thanks.

I am currently working on my second book The 7th Guards Army from Kursk to Prague 1943-45 and I have a related section about the conscription process in 1943. This is a quote from that section:

17 May 1943
The 7th Guards Army had a rear area organization which controlled the three main types of replacements flowing into the Army. First were new recruits arriving from trainings units in the rear. Second were men returning from the hospital and third were civilian men found within newly liberated territories. These civilian recruits were called “Booty Troops” as in spoils taken from an enemy. Replacements from the rear were formed into march companies or battalions and were sent to field replacement regiments at the front or army level. The army level replacement regiment also was used “as a processing center for returning wounded, conscripted civilians, and stragglers.” From here the newly acquired manpower would flow to divisional level replacement battalions. “Each division incorporated a replacement battalion, which was also called a school battalion, for training newly arrived replacements and for holding recuperating sick and wounded.” Overall, this was an effective system, and it ensured a steady flow of men and women into the army’s organization. But this system only worked if it was controlled properly, and that was not always done.

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Re: Untrained infantry replacements (1944)

#21

Post by Art » 03 Apr 2021, 12:31

Sid Guttridge wrote:
28 Mar 2021, 09:26
Assuming that, as a regiment (rather than a larger brigade, etc.,) it had about 3,000-4,000 men at any one time, training would presumably have been brief - perhaps less than a month.

A quick trawl on the internet for the Germans gives (unsourced), "In 1938, it took’s 16 weeks for infantrymen, 1940 only eight weeks, 16 weeks in 1943, and in 1944 from 12 to 14 weeks." Even then the Ostheer was so unimpressed with the quality of replacements it got from the Ersatzheer that each army group set up a field training division to give them additional training before they were sent to their units at the front. The new Reich-raised Waffen-SS divisions set up in 1943-44 took over a year before being committed to action.
The length of training circle for infantry replacements according to a pre-war regulation on replacement units was supposed to be:
2 weeks of basic training
+ 2 months of infantry training for privates or 3 months for NCOs

GKO decree of 13 August 1941 determined 1.5-2 months as a minimal training for privates and 3 months for NCOs. There are many indication that actual length could be shorter, especially in the first period of the war. At the end of the war the normal cycle for infantry replacements seemed to be 2-3 months.

Describing German replacements units the standard source says that "The basic training (Grundausbildung) in infantry training units normally is planned for 16 weeks; actually this period now is reduced to 8 weeks in most cases." in addition to a preparatory training of three weeks or less.
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Germany/HB/HB-1.html
From the top of my head there are mentions of replacement with 8-weeks training on German documents relating to 1944-45.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Untrained infantry replacements (1944)

#22

Post by Sid Guttridge » 03 Apr 2021, 13:15

Hi Art,

So, basically, German basic training when in extremis towards the end of the war was meant to be reduced to about the same duration as the standard Soviet basic training?

it rather looks as though the Germans were trying to maintain at least qualitative parity to the end rather than just pack the front with bodies.

Have you any idea how useful Soviet and German premilitary training in their mass youth organisations was as a foundation for basic military training?

Many thanks,

Sid

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Re: Untrained infantry replacements (1944)

#23

Post by Vasilyev » 13 Nov 2022, 20:42

Additional evidence about the importance of field conscription by Fronts/Armies to replenish the Red Army's formations shows up in this report from 48 Army from August 25, 1944:
During the period from June 20 to August 20, 1944, the army lost 4,787 people killed and wounded - 19 815 people. During this time, 26,614 people were mobilized and put into service due to conscription from the territory liberated from the enemy.

Thus, the entire personnel of the rifle companies are replenishment troops called up in the regions of Eastern and Western Belarus (the percentage of saturation with Belarusians reached 63.3).
http://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/nodes/ ... e/1/zoom/4

The report goes on the emphasize the problems involved with integrating untrained and newly conscripted men directly into frontline formations. During the successful Bobruisk Operation in June, 48 Army had several months to train and prepare its troops for combat. In August, continuous combat operations no longer made that possible.

A similar report from 8 Guards Army also mentions the issues involved with adding large numbers of fresh conscripts. It received men from the Brest and Pinsk regions as well as those liberated from camps in the Lublin region. However, these numbers were inadequate to keep pace with the Army's losses.

http://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/nodes/ ... e/1/zoom/4

47 Army also had trouble mobilizing enough men to maintain the strength of its combat formations. At the beginning of August its divisions numbered on average 4,000-4,500 men. By the end of the month this average declined to 3,000-3,500 men, while 47 Army only received some 3,000 replacements from march units, recovered convalescents, and internal resources of the army.

Its interesting to note the contrast between the armies on the left and right wing of the 1 Belorussian Front during this period. The left wing armies had fought entirely on Polish territory since July 20 and could only marginally rely on field conscription to keep their strength up. The armies on the right, on the other hand, mostly fought on what was still Soviet (Belorussian SSR) territory. This gave them the opportunity to provide a continuous stream of replacements, albeit low quality ones.

The decentralization of the mobilization of replacements to field conscription led to serious concerns about maintaining the field army's strength by early 1945. The Red Army was suffering heavy losses but could no longer rely on local resources to provide "real time" replenishments to combat formations in the same way it could in 1944. AV Isaev shared a document summarizing these concerns a few months ago:

https://dr-guillotin.livejournal.com/243617.html

Art
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Re: Untrained infantry replacements (1944)

#24

Post by Art » 13 Nov 2022, 23:12

Vasilyev wrote:
13 Nov 2022, 20:42
During the period from June 20 to August 20, 1944, the army lost 4,787 people killed and wounded - 19 815 people. During this time, 26,614 people were mobilized and put into service due to conscription from the territory liberated from the enemy.
That seems to be an exceptional case. According to the war diary of the 1 Belorussian Front in July the 48 Army recieved 18400 replacements from the "army resources", i.e. both locally conscripted and convalescents from the army hospital area, whereas the other 9 armies recieved about 12000. Similarly in August 1944 there were about 36000 replacements from the "army areas", including armies of the right wing: 48 Army - 3923, 65 Army - 7882, 28 Army - 10794. That must also include local conscription but additionally convalescents.
The Red Army was suffering heavy losses but could no longer rely on local resources to provide "real time" replenishments to combat formations in the same way it could in 1944. AV Isaev shared a document summarizing these concerns a few months ago:

https://dr-guillotin.livejournal.com/243617.html
Smorodinov didn't fully predicted conscription of former POWs and civil displaced persons beyond Soviet territory. That helped to keep up the balance.

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Re: Untrained infantry replacements (1944)

#25

Post by Vasilyev » 15 Nov 2022, 04:39

Art wrote:
13 Nov 2022, 23:12
Vasilyev wrote:
13 Nov 2022, 20:42
During the period from June 20 to August 20, 1944, the army lost 4,787 people killed and wounded - 19 815 people. During this time, 26,614 people were mobilized and put into service due to conscription from the territory liberated from the enemy.
That seems to be an exceptional case. According to the war diary of the 1 Belorussian Front in July the 48 Army recieved 18400 replacements from the "army resources", i.e. both locally conscripted and convalescents from the army hospital area, whereas the other 9 armies recieved about 12000. Similarly in August 1944 there were about 36000 replacements from the "army areas", including armies of the right wing: 48 Army - 3923, 65 Army - 7882, 28 Army - 10794. That must also include local conscription but additionally convalescents.
The total balance for 48 Army for June-August 1944 was 24,483 men according to the war diaries of 1 Belorussian Front. From march replacements, 10 Reserve Rifle Division of the Front, and "internal resources". Not exactly the same as 48 Army's report from August, the war diary's numbers are 8% less. I would've expected something like 5% or less for normal errors.

It may be a holdover of un-organized field conscription outside of the Army Reserve Rifle Regiments and Front/Army Military Councils which the October 9, 1943, order attempted to end.

Somewhat related, in 28 Army, the hoarding of unregistered horses as well as poor accounting remained a problem in August 1944:
A large number of unrecorded horses continue to remain in the Army's units, in some cases horses are kept in excess of the shtat, accounting of the horse stock is poorly done.

So, according to the Veterinary Department of the Army, during the offensive operations from 6/23 to 8/9, 1944 the Army received 2653 captured trophy and ownerless horses which were examined and registered as present by the Veterinary Department. However, according to the accounting data on the combat and strength of the formations and individual units of the Army captured trophy and ownerless horses are not all shown due to the lack of proper accounting.

To restore proper order in the accounting of horses and bring the units and organs of the Army to full strength.

The Commander of the Army Orders:

1. Under the personal responsibility of the commanders of formations, separate units and organs of the Army, make a thorough one-by-one accounting of the entire horse stock in all formations and units of the Army.

2. Keep records, rosters, and inventories of the entire horse stock of the unit, organs in accordance with the order of the Deputy People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR No. 023 - 44.

3. Hand over all excess horses to the 197th Army Reserve Rifle Regiment in Velichkovichi, 4 km northwest of Janow Podlaski.

4. To the Chief of the Logistics of the Army, all the horses kept in excess in the rear units and organs of the Army should be withdrawn and turned over to the staffing of units and institutions that are understrength.

5. By August 17, 1944, report the results of the re-registration of the horse stock, indicating the number of all registered horses, as well as identified unrecorded and excess horses.
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454540761

Evidently, it was still a struggle to get formations of the field army to maintain accurate records of their men and material (Including the Order No. 023-44 mentioned).

Anyway, in total the "right wing" armies - 48, 65, and 28 - received 63.21% of the total "internal" replacements.

1 Belorussian Front's September war diary gives the following definitions for the 3 types of replacements it lists:

Interior military districts:
Replenishment, who arrived from the interior military districts of the country, trained, outfitted in new uniforms according to the summer plan, under the age of 36, by nationality, for the most part, Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians.
According to 8 Guards Army's report it received 5,102 untrained men from the Brest and Pinsk regions from the Belorussian Military District as replacements in August 1944. So in practice march replacements from the newly established western military districts could be untrained and freshly mobilized.

10 Reserve Rifle Division:
The replacements transferred from 10 Reserve Rifle Division consist mainly of those mobilized in the eastern Oblasts of Belarus.
Might be a typo in the document and mean "western Oblasts" instead. Either way, they're men mobilized directly to the Front's 10 Reserve Rifle Division from Belarus.

Internal army resources:
Internal army resources are convalescents from hospitals.
This may be the case for September, but definitely doesn't apply to the other months. Men mobilized locally by an army to its Reserve Rifle Regiment are also in this category.

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Re: Untrained infantry replacements (1944)

#26

Post by Art » 15 Nov 2022, 08:48

Vasilyev wrote:
15 Nov 2022, 04:39
The total balance for 48 Army for June-August 1944 was 24,483 men according to the war diaries of 1 Belorussian Front. From march replacements, 10 Reserve Rifle Division of the Front, and "internal resources". Not exactly the same as 48 Army's report from August, the war diary's numbers are 8% less.
I suppose the difference could be due personnel unassigned to combat units by the end of August 1944.

According to Revyakin the 8 Guards Army received 5488 replacement personnel from the Belorussian Military District in in the second half of August. According to the 1 BF's war diary - 5490 men from military districts during the month of August. That's a good match.

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Re: Untrained infantry replacements (1944)

#27

Post by Art » 16 Nov 2022, 23:24

Vasilyev wrote:
15 Nov 2022, 04:39
Evidently, it was still a struggle to get formations of the field army to maintain accurate records of their men and material (Including the Order No. 023-44 mentioned).
The order No.23 of 14.02.1944 introduced a new regulation on personnel registration and accounting in the Red Army instead of an older regulation from the 1940. It included standard forms of records and reports on horses in military units.

Documents issued by he 48 Army HQ contain references to the Army's orders of 1 and 4 July 1944, which are not available themselves (I haven't found them at least). It appears that according to these orders new replacements were combined into divisional training (or replacement) battalions with instructor personnel detached from combat elements and underwent training lasting from 15 days (men with previous military training) to 45 days (without previous military training). It was also recommended to employ former partisans as instructors. This scheme wasn't fully followed though, the army orders complained that sometimes training went chaotically and unplanned, commanders were indifferent, men didn't ave uniforms or weapons etc etc. It was mentioned on 24 July that the reserve of weapons was still behind the Ola River, i.e. several hundred kilometers behind the front-line.
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454304951
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454304945
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454304944

Assuming that the 26 000 figure is correct that would mean almost 3000 men per each of 9 divisions. Too many for a "battalion".

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Re: Untrained infantry replacements (1944)

#28

Post by Vasilyev » 17 Nov 2022, 17:02

Art wrote:
16 Nov 2022, 23:24
Vasilyev wrote:
15 Nov 2022, 04:39
Evidently, it was still a struggle to get formations of the field army to maintain accurate records of their men and material (Including the Order No. 023-44 mentioned).
The order No.23 of 14.02.1944 introduced a new regulation on personnel registration and accounting in the Red Army instead of an older regulation from the 1940. It included standard forms of records and reports on horses in military units.

Documents issued by he 48 Army HQ contain references to the Army's orders of 1 and 4 July 1944, which are not available themselves (I haven't found them at least). It appears that according to these orders new replacements were combined into divisional training (or replacement) battalions with instructor personnel detached from combat elements and underwent training lasting from 15 days (men with previous military training) to 45 days (without previous military training). It was also recommended to employ former partisans as instructors. This scheme wasn't fully followed though, the army orders complained that sometimes training went chaotically and unplanned, commanders were indifferent, men didn't ave uniforms or weapons etc etc. It was mentioned on 24 July that the reserve of weapons was still behind the Ola River, i.e. several hundred kilometers behind the front-line.
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454304951
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454304945
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454304944

Assuming that the 26 000 figure is correct that would mean almost 3000 men per each of 9 divisions. Too many for a "battalion".
Apparently this change didn't mean that the 146 Army Reserve Rifle Regiment would stop providing replacements. According to 170 Rifle Division's war diary, it provided them 1,050 replacements from July 28-29.

https://www.moypolk.ru/soldier/kryuchko ... ihaylovich

A detachment of 146 AZSP actually found itself on the Narew frontline in October-November 1944, occupying defensive positions on the east bank to free up combat formations of 53 Rifle Corps.

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Re: Untrained infantry replacements (1944)

#29

Post by Vasilyev » 04 Feb 2023, 00:35

The state border of the USSR was a minor obstacle to personnel returning from escorting march replacements:
02.12.45

Chiefs of Directorates

Chiefs of Departments

Commander of the 236th Reserve Rifle Regiment

There are cases when staging-blocking detachments [этапно-заградительными отрядами? There’s definitely a better translation] service outfits of units of the NKVD troops, officers, sergeants and privates, accompanying the march replenishment for the army from the reserve formations and interior Military Districts, when returning back across the border between Poland and the USSR, due to the lack of properly executed travel documents, are delayed.

To prevent similar incidents in the future:

THE COMMANDER ORDERS:

Heads of Directorates, Departments of the Army, the commander of the 236 Army Reserve Rifle Regiment, directly receiving march replacements, on the reverse side of the travel orders accompanying staff, in the section for notes after the final acceptance of the replacements make a note:

"Upon delivery of the march replacements, return to the place of service of his unit across the State border of Poland and the USSR" (signature and seal)

Chief of Staff of the 69th Army, Major General Vladimirskii

Chief of the Organization and Staffing Department, Lieutenant Colonel of Administrative Services Fei
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454868029

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Re: Untrained infantry replacements (1944)

#30

Post by Vasilyev » 16 Feb 2023, 18:30

The deployment of "Westerners" and other groups of recruits from liberated areas as march replacements without properly "mixing" them into established units continued to be a problem for 1st Belorussian Front in November, 1944:
Over the past period, the troops of the front received a significant number of reinforcements from among those mobilized in the territory liberated from enemy troops, including from the western regions of Ukraine and Belarus.

Insufficient attention to the distribution of the incoming replenishment led to the fact that in some units and parts of units groups of fellow countrymen, fellow villagers and relatives were formed. For example:

there are 24 people in the 185th Guards Rifle Regiment of the 60th Guards Rifle Division from one village Khozeva, Molodechensky District, while in other regiments there is no one from this village;

[More examples]

Also noted were the facts of replacements for individual units solely at the expense of the arrived replacements called up in the liberated territory.

In a number of cases, such an incorrect distribution of replenishment created fertile ground for the commission of group crimes (mutual self-mutilation, desertion) and made it difficult to timely prevent these crimes and expose the perpetrators.

[Examples]
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454049655

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