Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

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Panzer94
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Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

Post by Panzer94 » 23 Jul 2003 20:32

I remember reading that not only did Stalin hate the Jews,but he also planned to exterminate all the Jews of the Ukraine.Then I remember seeing a book on the subject a few weeks ago.I was shocked!Is any of this true?The book went on to say that Stalin had his daughter imprisoned because she was engaged to a jewish man,and that Stalin's holocaust was going to take place,but he died before anything came of it.

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hunor
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Post by hunor » 23 Jul 2003 20:37

I think he made a Holocaust....he killed a lot of people who weren't communist.

Caldric
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Re: Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

Post by Caldric » 23 Jul 2003 20:56

Panzer94 wrote:I remember reading that not only did Stalin hate the Jews,but he also planned to exterminate all the Jews of the Ukraine.Then I remember seeing a book on the subject a few weeks ago.I was shocked!Is any of this true?The book went on to say that Stalin had his daughter imprisoned because she was engaged to a jewish man,and that Stalin's holocaust was going to take place,but he died before anything came of it.
I have little doubt the doctors trails were the beginning of a Jewish Purge. The Jewish community in the USSR gained great deal of power during the war, anti-Facist groups and such. Radzinsky goes into some detail about the forthcoming purge.

It would have been a major purge of not only the Jewish but the Red Army, NKVD etc. Some argue that Beria fearing he would fall during the upcoming major purge posioned Stalin in March 1953.

Once search is working again I will find a good thread we had about this subject last year.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 23 Jul 2003 21:44

hunor wrote:I think he made a Holocaust....he killed a lot of people who weren't communist.
actully he persoanlly was resposnbile for detahs of far more communsits than non-communists.

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hunor
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Post by hunor » 23 Jul 2003 21:51

oleg wrote:
hunor wrote:I think he made a Holocaust....he killed a lot of people who weren't communist.
actully he persoanlly was resposnbile for detahs of far more communsits than non-communists.
It's true. Ok so we can say that he mede a kind of Holocaust. Or not?

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 23 Jul 2003 22:42

hunor wrote:
oleg wrote:
hunor wrote:I think he made a Holocaust....he killed a lot of people who weren't communist.
actully he persoanlly was resposnbile for detahs of far more communsits than non-communists.
It's true. Ok so we can say that he mede a kind of Holocaust. Or not?
hm hardly, holocaust the way you mean it (correct me here if I am wrong) is deliberate extermination by some common feature -ethnicity for instance (of course it is not limited to that). 786,098 persons were sentenced to death “for counterrevolutionary and state crimes” by various courts and extra-judicial bodies between 1930 and 1953.IMO it does not qulify as holocaust. for more infor see my post here http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopi ... c&start=15
-second from the bottom.

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Germanica
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Post by Germanica » 23 Jul 2003 23:32

Oleg, what about the campaign of Stalin against the ethnic German population of Eastern Europe? If I remember correctly, the "volksdeutsche" bore the brunt of Soviet reprisal activities outside of Germany. The death toll (according to my own knowledge) was approximately 1.5 million, although the operation itself extended to some 30 million in total.

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 23 Jul 2003 23:41

The megalomaniac Stalin did commit Holocaust in Ukraine. About 7 to 10 Million people died by deliberate extermination in 1932-33:

Http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 23 Jul 2003 23:58

Germanica wrote:Oleg, what about the campaign of Stalin against the ethnic German population of Eastern Europe? If I remember correctly, the "volksdeutsche" bore the brunt of Soviet reprisal activities outside of Germany. The death toll (according to my own knowledge) was approximately 1.5 million, although the operation itself extended to some 30 million in total.

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Germanica
Whta makes you put the balme for that Squarely on Stalin's shoulders? Expulsion of ethic Geramns was agreed upon by all alied powers in Potsdam. In Czhech Republic it was acrried out by Checzh themselves - and their government was not even communist at the times -as far as I recall they still not excesevelly sorry about that either.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 24 Jul 2003 00:06

Benoit Douville wrote:The megalomaniac Stalin did commit Holocaust in Ukraine. About 7 to 10 Million people died by deliberate extermination in 1932-33:

Http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine

Regards
Benoit is not tiresome for you to step on the same proverbial rake over and over again?
a) In 1932-33 Stalin did not even have unlimited undisputed power –so at least for that reson you cannot put balme what happened then squarely on him.
b) The Famine of 1932-1933 was not Ukarninan and it hit all agricaltural areas in USSR.
c) It was not intentinal – it was facilitaed by inpet pollicies – but they were not aimed at anihiliating Ukranians oranybody else fort tha matter.
d) Modern demographical research puts number of victims between 3 and 3.5 millions

Finally what would have happen if the Government did not forcefully removed the grain from the villages (hint what would happen to the urban population?)

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Germanica
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Post by Germanica » 24 Jul 2003 00:22

Oleg, the post-war activities of the Soviet Union are not my speciality in history. I prefer to concentrate on the German Armed Forces and the course of the war itself. I apologise if I mis-interpreted anything I read. I am not exonerating any Allied power from the post-war occurances that resulted from the Yalta and Potsdam agreements, but it had always been my belief that Eastern Europe was under the Soviet sphere of influence, whether or not communist regimes had been installed - as the troops stationed there after the defeat of Germany belonged to the Red Army. Am I incorrect? Was there a Western Allied sphere of influence in Eastern Europe after the defeat of Germany?
Finally what would have happen if the Government did not forcefully removed the grain from the villages (hint what would happen to the urban population?)
That wouldn't have been necessary if Stalin hadn't introduced his policy of agricultural collectivisation, thus quashing the independence of the Russian/Ukrainian peasants.

Regards,
Germanica

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 24 Jul 2003 00:38

Germanica wrote:Oleg, the post-war activities of the Soviet Union are not my speciality in history. I prefer to concentrate on the German Armed Forces and the course of the war itself. I apologise if I mis-interpreted anything I read. I am not exonerating any Allied power from the post-war occurances that resulted from the Yalta and Potsdam agreements, but it had always been my belief that Eastern Europe was under the Soviet sphere of influence, whether or not communist regimes had been installed - as the troops stationed there after the defeat of Germany belonged to the Red Army. Am I incorrect? Was there a Western Allied sphere of influence in Eastern Europe after the defeat of Germany?
Finally what would have happen if the Government did not forcefully removed the grain from the villages (hint what would happen to the urban population?)


That wouldn't have been necessary if Stalin hadn't introduced his policy of agricultural collectivisation, thus quashing the independence of the Russian/Ukrainian peasants.

Regards,
Germanica
Peasants were self sufficient and could not give a damn about city folks, who on the other hand could not pay with anything – there was enormous explosion of urban population during and right after the civil war and most of these people – former peasants – were poor beyond the imagination. Modern research shows that some kind of state controlled food distribution system would have been installed regardless of who would have won the civil war - in order to avoid massive starvation of the cities, consequent epidemics, and total breakdown of whatever was left of the social order. Soviet Government had to chose between starving cities or starving peasants - it chose peasants. And one again Stalin did not have an absolute power when it happed, so while partial blame does rest with him, putting it solely on him ,and thus rendering others of their share of responsibility is not fare.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 24 Jul 2003 00:40

Germanica wrote:Oleg, the post-war activities of the Soviet Union are not my speciality in history. I prefer to concentrate on the German Armed Forces and the course of the war itself. I apologise if I mis-interpreted anything I read. I am not exonerating any Allied power from the post-war occurances that resulted from the Yalta and Potsdam agreements, but it had always been my belief that Eastern Europe was under the Soviet sphere of influence, whether or not communist regimes had been installed - as the troops stationed there after the defeat of Germany belonged to the Red Army. Am I incorrect? Was there a Western Allied sphere of influence in Eastern Europe after the defeat of Germany?
Finally what would have happen if the Government did not forcefully removed the grain from the villages (hint what would happen to the urban population?)
That wouldn't have been necessary if Stalin hadn't introduced his policy of agricultural collectivisation, thus quashing the independence of the Russian/Ukrainian peasants.

Regards,
Germanica
if there were other troops than Soviets in EE it would not have chnage anything - WA did not have much simpathy for Germans either, nor did the have it for anybody who collaborated with Nazis - turning over Vlasovsti etc - is quite an indicator.

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 24 Jul 2003 03:17

Oleg,

We should not forget that holocaust that I mentionned and we constantly have to remember the new member. Ther other holocaust, the extermination of the Jews will not be forgetted because the Jews are always remind us about that. I am also tired of hearing it but they are right.

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Post by michael mills » 24 Jul 2003 10:30

Panzer94 wrote:
I remember reading that not only did Stalin hate the Jews,but he also planned to exterminate all the Jews of the Ukraine.Then I remember seeing a book on the subject a few weeks ago.I was shocked!Is any of this true?The book went on to say that Stalin had his daughter imprisoned because she was engaged to a jewish man,and that Stalin's holocaust was going to take place,but he died before anything came of it.
No, none of it is true.

Certain Jewish right-wingers from time to time claim that Stalin was planning to deport all of the Jews of the Soviet Union to prison camps in Siberia. One such is Louis Rapoport, who wrote a book "Stalin's War against the Jews : the Doctors' Plot and the Soviet Solution" (1990).

However, close inspection of those claims reveals that the real agenda of the Jewish right-wingers is to attack their Jewish leftist opponents, through the latters' historical links with Communism. For example, a large part of the Rapoport book mentioned above is concerned with listing and describing the large number of Jews who held high positions in Bolshevik Russia, and their misdeeds. (In fact, I have found the best source of information on Jewish Bolshevism to be Jewish rightists).

A more balanced book is "Out of the Red Shadows : Anti-Semitism in Stalin's Russia", by Gennadi Kostyrchenko (1995). Kostyrchenko examined all the evidence for the alleged deportation scheme, and found no documentary support for it. That is, there is no record of any discussions of such a plan, nor of any logistical planning.

As Caldric wrote on this thread, Stalin had given Soviet Jews a fair amount of power and influence during the war, eg the Sviet Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee; one reason for that was because Jews were the one ethnic group that could be relied on not to collaborate with the German invaders.

Once the war was over, Stalin no longer needed the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee, and in 1948 he purged it. Most of its members were executed, but we need shed no tears for them; men like Itzik Fefer, Shakhne Epstein and Peretz Markish were nasty pieces of work with a lot to answer for. Their purging was poetic justice, just like the purging of Zinoviev, of Iagoda, of Ezhov, and of Beriia.

Furthermore, Zionism was emerging as a rival to Communism for Jewish allegiance, and Stalin cracked down hard on any manifestations of Zionist sympathies (even though in 1948 he had supplied the crucial military support in the form of trained men, weapons and aircraft that assured the survival of the nascent Jewish state).

However, there is no evidence whatever of a plan by Stalin directed against Soviet Jewry as a whole. The alleged deportation plan was fabricated by analogy by real deportations of ethnic groups perpetrated by Stalin, eg the Chechens, the Crimean Tartars, the Kalmyks, the Volga Germans - but all those groups had been accused of collaboration with the German invaders.

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