Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

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George L Gregory
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Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by George L Gregory » 03 Dec 2022 00:39

According to the Rassenschande article on Wikipedia Jews were not subjected to the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans so the jurisdiction bypassed the laws and created special courts to give Jews the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rassenschande

What’s even more strange is that Jews - the number one enemy of the Nazis - were not subjected to the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans, but Poles, Russians and other Eastern Europeans were subjected to the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish germans even though they were regarded as “Aryans” (related blood), but Jews were not.

The strange contradictions of Nazi racial theories are obvious to anyone!

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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by Hans1906 » 03 Dec 2022 17:31

George,

after the NSDAP came to power in 1933, the "Jews", and not only the german "Jews" were never entitled as an "Enemy ".

They were labeled and treated as subhuman, the dregs of human society.
"Opponents" were the French, the English, the Americans, etc.

My great-grandparents bought the large commercial building from a German Jewish family around 1900.
As far as I know, the German Cohn family emigrated to the USA at the time.

In the local memoirs, journalists wrote about a kind of hostile takeover of Jewish property.
Total nonsense, I have all the papers from that time, the sale was legal, there were no Nazis in those years.
But there was anti-Semitism, even then, undisputedly.

A lot gets mixed up, usually by people who don't have any documents, let alone photos.
This all happened in the early 20th century, two lifetimes ago, and the whole shit is still an issue.

I have all these documents from the family, they weren't bad people, I put my hand in the fire for that.


Hans
P.S. Unfortunately, in the 1960's my grand cousin U. was allowed to search through the old records for old stamps.
That did enormous damage. The young man destroyed a lot, I still puke today, when I pick up tattered documents...
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

George L Gregory
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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by George L Gregory » 06 Dec 2022 14:09

The Nuremberg Law didn’t allow the death penalty to be used against Jews and non-Jews who were found guilty of race defilement.
During the war, there were even several cases in which the death penalty was imposed. Since the Blood Protection Law itself did not provide for the death penalty, the courts constructed a so-called nominal concurrence (sec. 73, Penal Code) with crimes that were punishable by death.
Diemut Majer, ”Non-Germans” Under the Third Reich, page 331.

When it came to carrying out the death penalty to Jews who were found guilty of race defilement, the courts simply found ways and means.
The crime of “race defilement” did not carry the death penalty according to the Nuremberg Laws, but the judges found a way to justify his execution, invoking the language of moral indignation.
Alan E. Steinweis and Robert D. Rachlin, The Law in Nazi Germany: Ideology, Opportunism, and the Perversion of Justice, page 9.

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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 06 Dec 2022 19:36

Many Jews were married to Aryans.
Viktor Klemperer is the most famous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer
They were thousands. They were free until the end of the war. They were not sent to death's camps.

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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by Hans1906 » 07 Dec 2022 20:33

This subject is far too complex for an internet forum, and everything about it has been written, remembered, and published tens of thousands of times.

I write repeatedly and I consider George's questions to be purely provocative, a challenge to possible wrong answers, my personal opinion.

Anyone who, like me, grew up here in Germany in the 1950s could tell you stories you wouldn't believe.
Men in black SS uniforms at carnival events, true hall battles between German veterans, English, Canadians and Americans at dance evenings, and all dead drunk from the good German beer.

The men knocked each other in the face terribly, without weapons.
Then the MP came and the party was over, and not just once, entire pubs were reduced to rubble in this way, the post-war years...

A local chronicler wrote a very successful column about those years in the local newspaper for years.
Entitled "Fied vertellt". ("Friedrich remembers")

The author at the time was a childhood and youth friend of my grandmother, one of the boys who cleaned up the premises after these hall battles for pocket money.
He wrote his many memoirs full of humor, in the memory of those years. People had little to smile about back then, times were hard.
Maybe I'll find the time to scan these newspaper articles for you and post them here, one day...

I recall a line from Fied from one of his columns, "The English and the Canadians stared at each other like cows in a thunderstorm, wide-eyed, and a moment later, all hell broke loose!" 8O :lol:


Hans
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by Hans1906 » 07 Dec 2022 21:04

But past the fun, and we kids have seen many WWII veterans.

Endless cripples, men in self-propelled vehicles and wheelchairs, most of them were not even visible, they died quietly in their families.

We children were often told to be quiet when another veteran was buried.

We grew up with it, and the next day we played "War", we didn't know any other way.


Hans
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by Mannheim » 07 Dec 2022 21:24

The case of Leo Katzenberger in Nuremberg is probably the best-known example: https://www.stolpersteine-nuernberg.de/ ... tzenberger
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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by VanillaNuns » 07 Dec 2022 22:34

Rosenberg vs Himmler vs Goebbels v Stuckhart v Frank

The NSDAP leadership couldn't seem to agree on Jewish policy. It was all over the place. At national, regional and local levels.

Albert Forster v Arthur Greiser is a good example of how two separate Gauleiters treated Poles and non-Aryans in their respective areas which bordered each other.

Until 1942 and early 1943, even the People's Court was inconsistent. Someone could appear in front of the tribunal for a severe offence and be sentenced to death. An identical case a few days later for the same offence could see a lenient sentence.

Things changed when Freisler became President and toughened up further again after the Stalingrad defeat.

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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by Hans1906 » 08 Dec 2022 01:05

Of course, German Jews lived unrecognized everywhere, a very difficult subject.

I knew at least three families, who were not persecuted under the Nazis, for whatever reason.

Referred to as so-called "Money Jews" in the German past.
Grandfather Max and son Johannes, the father of my first love, were among the few exceptions.
When we were young, we didn't talk about these people, they had "money", for whatever reason or from where.

These families were accepted fellow citizens, but the term "Jew" was always a background; anyone who denies that today is lying.

The former christian first names in this family are interesting, Max, Johannes, Christiane, Andrea, etc.

But when deep brown eyes smile at you, telling you about the sky in one look, then you become weak and your knees tremble, I think that's what's called love.

Jewish, Christian, or whatever, you don't care, you want to get lost in those eyes, forever...




I'm way too old for this topic, no tattoos, no body shaming, and other nonsense, that's enough!


Hans
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

George L Gregory
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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by George L Gregory » 13 Dec 2022 00:32

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
06 Dec 2022 19:36
Many Jews were married to Aryans.
Viktor Klemperer is the most famous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer
They were thousands. They were free until the end of the war. They were not sent to death's camps.
The "Aryans" who were married to Jews, known as Jüdisch versippt, were discriminated against in various ways, they were restricted with regard to employment in certain professions and their opportunities were hindered too. After the Civil Service Law was passed in 1933, "Aryans" who were married to people of Jewish descent were not allowed to be hired as civil servants. Joseph Goebbels wanted to get rid of any Jewish influence in The Reich Chamber of Culture and he sought to get rid of people in relationships with people of Jewish descent. They were also excluded from serving in the Wehrmacht. Eventually they were even used as forced labourers.

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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by George L Gregory » 13 Dec 2022 00:34

Hans1906 wrote:
07 Dec 2022 20:33
This subject is far too complex for an internet forum, and everything about it has been written, remembered, and published tens of thousands of times.
Not really. Do you care to reference some books that go into detail about the penalty for Rassenschande?
I write repeatedly and I consider George's questions to be purely provocative, a challenge to possible wrong answers, my personal opinion.

Hans
If that's what you think then you shouldn't waste your time replying to my threads, but you always seem to find the need to do so.

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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by Hans1906 » 15 Dec 2022 16:27

George,

from my personal point of view there are a lot of memories, whether good or bad.
When we were born after the war, we children and young people experienced a lot, saw a lot, those were our young years, full of former heroes and war cripples.

Of course, one's own memories are deceptive after many decades, but what one has once inhaled, remains.

My German homeland is still full of all that old shit, every day, 24 hours a day.
Should I apologize for that, I don't think so.

In the 1970s it didn't matter if you came from a Christian, Jewish, or an Atheist family, we didn't care, we didn't even think about it.
Many of us grew up in very liberal schools and boarding schools, we had all read the "Summerhill Principle", not just once.

But Jewish descent was always an issue in the families.
One envied these people the business success, the wealth, the luxury.
The other Ferrari, and the third and fourth apartment building that you didn't live in yourself, simple envy, pretty normal for not-so-successful people.

Envy and greed are driving forces in many of us, my former childhood friend now owns a luxury hotel in the Caribbean.
Is the lady really happy there, no, she's not, she longs for her northern German homeland, the flat country, the filthy weather.
She would like to walk over a dyke on the North Sea coast again, not in the sand of the Caribbean, that's a longing, a longing for a home.


Hans
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 21 Dec 2022 21:39

George L Gregory wrote:
13 Dec 2022 00:32
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
06 Dec 2022 19:36
Many Jews were married to Aryans.
Viktor Klemperer is the most famous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer
They were thousands. They were free until the end of the war. They were not sent to death's camps.
The "Aryans" who were married to Jews, known as Jüdisch versippt, were discriminated against in various ways, they were restricted with regard to employment in certain professions and their opportunities were hindered too. After the Civil Service Law was passed in 1933, "Aryans" who were married to people of Jewish descent were not allowed to be hired as civil servants. Joseph Goebbels wanted to get rid of any Jewish influence in The Reich Chamber of Culture and he sought to get rid of people in relationships with people of Jewish descent. They were also excluded from serving in the Wehrmacht. Eventually they were even used as forced labourers.
Klemperer lost his job, but not his wife. It was hard time because of the war. But he was still free till the end of the war.

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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by Gorque » 22 Dec 2022 00:11

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
21 Dec 2022 21:39
George L Gregory wrote:
13 Dec 2022 00:32
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
06 Dec 2022 19:36
Many Jews were married to Aryans.
Viktor Klemperer is the most famous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer
They were thousands. They were free until the end of the war. They were not sent to death's camps.
The "Aryans" who were married to Jews, known as Jüdisch versippt, were discriminated against in various ways, they were restricted with regard to employment in certain professions and their opportunities were hindered too. After the Civil Service Law was passed in 1933, "Aryans" who were married to people of Jewish descent were not allowed to be hired as civil servants. Joseph Goebbels wanted to get rid of any Jewish influence in The Reich Chamber of Culture and he sought to get rid of people in relationships with people of Jewish descent. They were also excluded from serving in the Wehrmacht. Eventually they were even used as forced labourers.
Klemperer lost his job, but not his wife. It was hard time because of the war. But he was still free till the end of the war.
I strongly disagree. Victor Klemperer and his wife were forced to live in a Jews home in Dresden. They had witnessed first hand the disappearance of their fellow housemates "to the east".

Victor Klemperer and his loyal protestant wife endured many privations during the life of the Third Reich. What saved Victor Klemperer was not only his marriage to a German, but also his meritorious service with the artillery in the Kaiser's Army.

His English version "I Will Bear Witness" is a sobering read of the trials and tribulations faced by mixed marriage Germans. What saved Victor Klemperer in the end, was his service in the Heer as many other mixed marriage Germans were sent "East".

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Re: Were Jews given the death penalty for having sexual relations with non-Jewish Germans?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 23 Dec 2022 14:37

Gorque wrote:
22 Dec 2022 00:11
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
21 Dec 2022 21:39
George L Gregory wrote:
13 Dec 2022 00:32
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
06 Dec 2022 19:36
Many Jews were married to Aryans.
Viktor Klemperer is the most famous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer
They were thousands. They were free until the end of the war. They were not sent to death's camps.
The "Aryans" who were married to Jews, known as Jüdisch versippt, were discriminated against in various ways, they were restricted with regard to employment in certain professions and their opportunities were hindered too. After the Civil Service Law was passed in 1933, "Aryans" who were married to people of Jewish descent were not allowed to be hired as civil servants. Joseph Goebbels wanted to get rid of any Jewish influence in The Reich Chamber of Culture and he sought to get rid of people in relationships with people of Jewish descent. They were also excluded from serving in the Wehrmacht. Eventually they were even used as forced labourers.
Klemperer lost his job, but not his wife. It was hard time because of the war. But he was still free till the end of the war.
I strongly disagree. Victor Klemperer and his wife were forced to live in a Jews home in Dresden. They had witnessed first hand the disappearance of their fellow housemates "to the east".

Victor Klemperer and his loyal protestant wife endured many privations during the life of the Third Reich. What saved Victor Klemperer was not only his marriage to a German, but also his meritorious service with the artillery in the Kaiser's Army.

His English version "I Will Bear Witness" is a sobering read of the trials and tribulations faced by mixed marriage Germans. What saved Victor Klemperer in the end, was his service in the Heer as many other mixed marriage Germans were sent "East".
I confirm our disagreement. Klemperer was saved ONLY by his aryan wife, and he knew it and said it (it did not prevent him to marry another young woman after the war).

No jew was spared because of his service in the Heer or his early conversion to christianism or even his antisemitism.
The only reason for a jew to be spared was a special decision by Hitler (ex : Dr Bloch, E. Milch, Emil Maurice etc.) or being married to an aryan woman.

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