Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

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Peter89
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Re: Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

Post by Peter89 » 04 Jan 2023 21:39

nota wrote:
04 Jan 2023 18:58
WHY INDIA plus other areas the english have far closer to japan then any other axis power HK sing ect
and only japan has the ability to move troops in the eastern areas

THEY CAN'T WIN ANY OTHER WAY yes it is hard and unlikely but there is no other real way

mid 1940 russia is semi allied with the axis at a minimum can be paid/trade to help
german ships did pass with russian ice breakers aid thru the arctic summer ice to japan going the other way is possible
our fleet did a round the world in pre 1900 ships are built to go long distances yes some may break and need fixing so what there are sea going tugs
oil tankers refuel the ships and supply can be shipped across the red rail system

the japan merchant fleet can also transport ammo parts and supply as needed
and the USA will not attack until war is declared IF THEN likely not even then we did not until actually attacked by them
and japan can get the land by peace treaty not conquest at far less risk of a USA attack
esp if quick the english knock out before the end of 1941 and a quick peace is axis granted with out occupation just colony losses
would we go to war if there is peace quickly ?
Such a trip on its own would be impossible. There was no infrastructure to support a naval force of this size in the Soviet Arctic region, and even if there was, there is exactly zero chance that the Japanese would place their fleet on Soviet mercy. Not to mention other basic problems you never really addressed.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

Post by Richard Anderson » 05 Jan 2023 20:32

nota wrote:
04 Jan 2023 18:58
WHY INDIA plus other areas the english have far closer to japan then any other axis power HK sing ect
and only japan has the ability to move troops in the eastern areas
I have no idea what you are trying to say so have no response.
THEY CAN'T WIN ANY OTHER WAY yes it is hard and unlikely but there is no other real way
Or more simply, they can't win by simply being "more aggressive" with the Kriegsmarine.
mid 1940 russia is semi allied with the axis at a minimum can be paid/trade to help
No, they are not "allied" either semi of fully. They have a non-aggression pact and an economic agreement, which only the Soviet Union adhered to. The main problem was that the Reich did not have the means to "paid/trade" for Soviet help.
german ships did pass with russian ice breakers aid thru the arctic summer ice to japan going the other way is possible
Ship. Singular. Not "ships". A single instance, Komet, not fully sanctioned by the Soviet government does not mean that an entire fleet could do so. It required 23 days and the services of three Soviet icebreakers to get the Komet to Japan.
our fleet did a round the world in pre 1900 ships are built to go long distances yes some may break and need fixing so what there are sea going tugs
oil tankers refuel the ships and supply can be shipped across the red rail system
The Great White Fleet's circumnavigation, not to put too fine a point on it, was a PEACETIME publicity stunt rather than a WARTIME operation. It took months of preparation, the contracting of 38 vessels to act as a fleet train, and 14 months to complete.

What "sea going tugs" did Nihon Kaigun have? They had five salvage and repair tugs but seagoing tugs are a different breed of cat and I can't find any. Who supports the "sea going tugs"? Better still, who repairs the ships they tug and where?

Where do the oil tankers come from? The Japanese tanker fleet was occupied with shipping oil from its primary supplier - the US - and other secondary suppliers like the DEI around the Pacific rim.

The Soviet Far East rail system was long and narrow - it had limited capacity - you now want to introduce more into it. How will that work?
the japan merchant fleet can also transport ammo parts and supply as needed
Same question regarding tankers. How many merchants can the Japanese commit to such a hare-brained scheme without crippling their island economy?
and the USA will not attack until war is declared IF THEN likely not even then we did not until actually attacked by them
and japan can get the land by peace treaty not conquest at far less risk of a USA attack
Huh? What "land"? Do you really think that if the Japanese fleet ends up in the Atlantic ocean the U.S. will do nothing?
esp if quick the english knock out before the end of 1941 and a quick peace is axis granted with out occupation just colony losses
would we go to war if there is peace quickly ?
How do you do this "quick"? What "colony losses"?
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nota
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Re: Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

Post by nota » 06 Jan 2023 06:32

japan was at peace before the dec 7 attacks

so their fleet sailing would be a ''peace time '' event except the final few miles as above practice

as you '' have no idea what you are trying to say so have no response. "
and then miss india hk is hong kong sing is a small island brit's hate to talk about

next final bit ''How do you do this "quick"? What "colony losses"?''

well he missed the opening india HK sing ect do you read ?


quick is 6 attack carriers knock out the battle fleet as they did on 12-7-41

then the german italy and japan have a chance to invade ie win quick
and to keep USA out just swap india hk others to name later and not occupy england

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Re: Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

Post by nota » 06 Jan 2023 06:44

forgot the '' Singular. Not "ships". A single instance, Komet, not fully sanctioned by the Soviet government does not mean that an entire fleet could do so. It required 23 days and the services of three Soviet icebreakers to get the Komet to Japan.''

please 3 different ice breakers and ''not fully sanctioned by the Soviet government'' NO not possessively possible
the reds want to be sort of allied and damm sure did fully sanction the services of three Soviet icebreakers

btw the war was lost real world the ships were lost the men died
this is a what if all in shot to win and kind of change the result at a key point
with the stuff that exists there then ie no magic maybe hard difficult work maybe needs luck

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Re: Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

Post by nota » 06 Jan 2023 06:55

idea is a world war require a join effort to win

any action by any nation in the axis can't win the war

it would require a totally committed all in by all of the nations

anything less is a lost war

why not discuss what could happen if a united axis sent its fleets against england in 1940
not just why it can't happen
this is a war winning what if

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Re: Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

Post by Peter89 » 06 Jan 2023 12:49

nota wrote:
06 Jan 2023 06:55
idea is a world war require a join effort to win

any action by any nation in the axis can't win the war

it would require a totally committed all in by all of the nations

anything less is a lost war

why not discuss what could happen if a united axis sent its fleets against england in 1940
not just why it can't happen
this is a war winning what if
OK here's what if the Japanese fleet would miraculously appear at the shores of Britain in September 1940:

- The Japanese fleet (then 4 fleet carriers plus 2 light carriers) joined by the wreck of the Kriegsmarine (a small cruiser squadron) would attack Britain's Home Fleet in the range of land-based aircrafts.

- The Luftwaffe would only be effective over the Channel, thus the Japanese have two choices: either attack under Luftwaffe protection, or without it. Risking an attack with such a large armada in the Channel would make little sense, and the British would be unlikely to put their fleet into danger either. Reaching the North Sea would be problematic at best (both the Channel and the Northern route was very risky), thus the battle would take place in the Atlantic, west of Britain.

- Let's talk about the potential battle. The carrier battle would look like this:
IJN: Akagi: 66, Kaga: 72, Sōryū: 63, Hiryu: 64, Ryūjō: 48, Hōshō: 15 aircrafts. Total: 328 aircrafts on 4 fleet carriers and 2 light carriers.
RN: Hermes: 20, Eagle: 30, Furious: 36, Courageous: 48, Glorious: 48, Ark Royal: 50, Illustrious: 36 aircrafts. Total: 268 aircrafts on 5 fleet carriers and 2 light carriers.

The 60 aircraft difference would be easily offset by the qualitative edge of the British aircrafts (note that at this time the Japanese mostly have Claudes), not to mention if their land-based aircrafts from the Fleet Air Arm and the Coastal Command would arrive for this all-out battle with Hurricanes and Spitfires.

The battleship / battlecruiser action would look like this:
IJN: Fusō, Yamashiro, Ise, Hyūga, Nagato, Mutsu, Kongō, Hiei, Kirishima, Haruna. All told, 80 pieces of 36 cm 41st Year Type and 16 pieces of 41 cm/45 3rd Year Type on 6 battleships and 4 battlecruisers. Full weight of broadside: 70 t
RN: Queen Elizabeth, Warspite, Valiant, Barham, Malaya, Ramillies, Royal Sovereign, Resolution, Revenge, Nelson, Rodney, Hood, Renown, Repulse. All told, 10 BL 14-inch Mk VII, 86 BL 15-inch Mark I and 18 BL 16-inch Mk I guns on 11 battleships and 3 battlecruisers. Barrels: 104. Full weight of broadside: 92 t

The IJN is hardly superior in the BB/BC action.

In cruisers and destroyers, the IJN was clearly inferior.

Long story short. Even if the IJN combined with the remnants of the KM might manage to cripple the RN, the Japanese could not reinforce their forlorn hope fleet across the whole world. Their air force would be diminished to zero and it is questionable whether they could ever support an invasion across the Channel, which would need air superiority and superiority in small warships (cruisers and below). Thus your plan fails before November 1940 and even if the Axis takes a more careful approach, the British would outproduce them in capital ships, aircrafts and ground defenses.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

Post by Richard Anderson » 06 Jan 2023 17:53

nota wrote:
06 Jan 2023 06:32
japan was at peace before the dec 7 attacks
Sorry but no, at that point it had been at war with China for four-and-a-half years and had occupied Indochina and Thailand, all much to the displeasure of the United States, which was closely tracking its actions.
so their fleet sailing would be a ''peace time '' event except the final few miles as above practice
No it would not be.
as you '' have no idea what you are trying to say so have no response. "
and then miss india hk is hong kong sing is a small island brit's hate to talk about
Taking the time to construct complete sentences and using correct spelling and reasonably understandable grammar will make your meaning considerably clearer to others as well as probably yourself. "WHY INDIA plus other areas the english have far closer to japan then any other axis power HK sing ect" begs the question why you would SHOUT about "why India" but fail to spell out "Singapore" - "sing" is a verb meaning to make musical sounds with the voice - or "HK" - which could be any one of a num ber of things.

If you can't be bothered to make yourself clearly understood why should you expect anyone to be bothered take the time to answer you?
well he missed the opening india HK sing ect do you read ?
Yes, I read, apparently considerably better than you can write.
quick is 6 attack carriers knock out the battle fleet as they did on 12-7-41
They knock out which "battle fleet"? The American? If so, then who goes the Northern Passage to join the Kriegsmarine? Or the British battle fleet? After a month sailing the Northwest Passage? That nobody will apparently notice. That the Soviets will cooperate with.

You do realize the Royal Navy bases in the UK are a considerably different target than Oahu?
then the german italy and japan have a chance to invade ie win quick
So the Regia Marina will sail through the Royal Navy's Mediterranean Fleet, Gibraltar, and around Iberia to Jolly Old England too? Fascinating.
and to keep USA out just swap india hk others to name later and not occupy england
So you're playing Risk? You'll swap India and Hong Kong to the American player to keep them happy? Seriously? And just how do you expect to invade "england [sic]" and at the same time not "occupy" it? That requires some interesting mental gymnastics. And how do you defeat the UK if you don't occupy Great Britain?

You may want to put just a smidge more thought into this.
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Re: Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

Post by Richard Anderson » 06 Jan 2023 18:16

nota wrote:
06 Jan 2023 06:44
forgot the '' Singular. Not "ships". A single instance, Komet, not fully sanctioned by the Soviet government does not mean that an entire fleet could do so. It required 23 days and the services of three Soviet icebreakers to get the Komet to Japan.''

please 3 different ice breakers and ''not fully sanctioned by the Soviet government'' NO not possessively possible
the reds want to be sort of allied and damm sure did fully sanction the services of three Soviet icebreakers
Oh, sorry but yes it was completely possible albeit not " possessively possible", which does not mean what you apparently think it does ( possessively means manifesting possession or the desire to own or dominate; a meaning that makes zero sense in the context you used). You may want to actually read some history on the subject.

Molotov gave tentative agreement to the German request to transit four merchant cruisers on 10 January 1940. On March 18, the German ambassador, Baumbach, informed the Red Navy that two vessels, Komet and Esso, would transit the passage but did not inform the Soviet Foreign Ministry. The Red Navy granted permission on 15 July 1940, demanding 850,000 rubles as payment. Komet (Esso had run aground in route) began the transit shortly after 13 August 1940, escorted by the icebreakers Lenin, Stalin and Kaganovich. After the start of BARBAROSSA, the Soviets were at pains to insist that no German raiders had been allowed to transit and when evidence surfaced that Komet had in fact transited, to deny that the transit had ever been authorized by the Soviet government.

The services of the three icebreakers was sanctioned by the Soviet Navy. Whether the Soviet government ever officially sanctioned the Soviet Navy's actions remains unclear and Molotov's tentative verbal agreement never resulted in an actual written agreement with terms (it is not even clear that the Soviet Navy's icebreaker rental fee was ever paid), thus "not fully sanctioned by the Soviet government".
btw the war was lost real world the ships were lost the men died
How profound. :roll:
this is a what if all in shot to win and kind of change the result at a key point
with the stuff that exists there then ie no magic maybe hard difficult work maybe needs luck
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Re: Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

Post by Richard Anderson » 06 Jan 2023 18:31

Peter89 wrote:
06 Jan 2023 12:49
OK here's what if the Japanese fleet would miraculously appear at the shores of Britain in September 1940:
Quite a miracle indeed considering that in that pesky real life the Japanese felt they had insufficient wherewithal - fuel and fleet support - to even include the 1st Fleet's 1st and 2d Battle Squadrons in the "Southern Operation" let alone a hare-brained scheme to transit the Northeast Passage in order to attack Great Britain.

Thus, eliminate Fusō, Yamashiro, Ise, Hyūga, Nagato, and Mutsu as well as their escorting 6th Cruiser Squadron and 3d Carrier Squadron with Hōshō and Ryūjō.
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Takao
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Re: Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

Post by Takao » 06 Jan 2023 22:31

Awesome idea!

The Japanese send the whole of their navy to Great Britain...And the USN sends the whole of it's navy to Tokyo.

Ooooops! Didn't see that coming.

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Re: Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

Post by nota » 07 Jan 2023 00:20

maybe but not in any time before late 1942 at the earliest more like 1943 before they are ready at best

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Re: Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

Post by nota » 07 Jan 2023 00:44

Richard Anderson wrote:
06 Jan 2023 17:53
nota wrote:
06 Jan 2023 06:32
japan was at peace before the dec 7 attacks
Sorry but no, at that point it had been at war with China for four-and-a-half years and had occupied Indochina and Thailand, all much to the displeasure of the United States, which was closely tracking its actions.
so their fleet sailing would be a ''peace time '' event except the final few miles as above practice
No it would not be.
as you '' have no idea what you are trying to say so have no response. "
and then miss india hk is hong kong sing is a small island brit's hate to talk about
Taking the time to construct complete sentences and using correct spelling and reasonably understandable grammar will make your meaning considerably clearer to others as well as probably yourself. "WHY INDIA plus other areas the english have far closer to japan then any other axis power HK sing ect" begs the question why you would SHOUT about "why India" but fail to spell out "Singapore" - "sing" is a verb meaning to make musical sounds with the voice - or "HK" - which could be any one of a num ber of things.

If you can't be bothered to make yourself clearly understood why should you expect anyone to be bothered take the time to answer you?
well he missed the opening india HK sing ect do you read ?
Yes, I read, apparently considerably better than you can write.
quick is 6 attack carriers knock out the battle fleet as they did on 12-7-41
They knock out which "battle fleet"? The American? If so, then who goes the Northern Passage to join the Kriegsmarine? Or the British battle fleet? After a month sailing the Northwest Passage? That nobody will apparently notice. That the Soviets will cooperate with.

You do realize the Royal Navy bases in the UK are a considerably different target than Oahu?
then the german italy and japan have a chance to invade ie win quick
So the Regia Marina will sail through the Royal Navy's Mediterranean Fleet, Gibraltar, and around Iberia to Jolly Old England too? Fascinating.
and to keep USA out just swap india hk others to name later and not occupy england
So you're playing Risk? You'll swap India and Hong Kong to the American player to keep them happy? Seriously? And just how do you expect to invade "england [sic]" and at the same time not "occupy" it? That requires some interesting mental gymnastics. And how do you defeat the UK if you don't occupy Great Britain?

You may want to put just a smidge more thought into this.
north east passage is all red russian no english spys or outposts so they pop out north of Norway

then do scapa flow before anyone knows they are near

STRINGBAGS HAVE NO CHANCE AGAINST A CAP
English have no good aircraft in 1940 at sea

right USA did not act until attacked so why attack japan in a time frame to effect events in 1940 / 1941
we did not attack germany or italy when they went to war with england or even when france fell
and even if they wanted to they need time and lots of it
so expect a nasty note with threats no fleet to japan from the USA for YEARS

promise the reds what ever even if they never get anything just get the ships thru

defeat by invasion with terms to avoid an occupation with india and other areas as war prizes
generous but necessary to keep USA from acting in time

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Re: Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

Post by Richard Anderson » 07 Jan 2023 01:42

nota wrote:
07 Jan 2023 00:44
north east passage is all red russian no english spys or outposts so they pop out north of Norway
Nonsense. Who needed "spys" [sic]? Traffic analysis, radio direction finding, and cryptanalysis of PURPLE would suffice for the massive movement you posit.
then do scapa flow before anyone knows they are near
You think the Japanese are attacking the Grand Fleet in the Great War?
STRINGBAGS HAVE NO CHANCE AGAINST A CAP
Shouting doesn't make something true.
English have no good aircraft in 1940 at sea
They are as good, of not better, than what the Japanese could field. There are no Zeroes, only Claudes. B5N1 not B5N2. D3A were just beginning carrier qualifications in mid 1940.

BTW, you did know that there was no Kida Butai in 1940? That Kaga was refitting from 1 May to 18 November 1940?
right USA did not act until attacked so why attack japan in a time frame to effect events in 1940 / 1941
we did not attack germany or italy when they went to war with england or even when france fell
and even if they wanted to they need time and lots of it
so expect a nasty note with threats no fleet to japan from the USA for YEARS
Straw man much do you?
promise the reds what ever even if they never get anything just get the ships thru
The Reds must be incredibly stupid in your universe.
defeat by invasion with terms to avoid an occupation with india and other areas as war prizes
generous but necessary to keep USA from acting in time
So now you are invading Great Britain again. Are you occupying it this time?

BTW, how are you going to defeat the British Home Fleet with three fleet carriers and four fast battleships?
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

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Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
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nota
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Re: Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

Post by nota » 07 Jan 2023 02:15

hope is before London falls by being surrounded to get a treaty
so mini occupation for a short period

as so little actual heavy arms exist in 1940 in england
if the germans can land troops with some tanks and big guns
there is very little to stop a quick dash to the capital

yes they need deception not a radio silence as none is a tip also
yes they need to sneak and fake being elsewhere to

schedules can be changed we are using the ships in existence with aircraft
they can't decide to hold back so mini repair and sail
sorry I do not see stringbags vs CAP working
yes brits have good land based SHORT ranged fighters No dive bombers land or sea
and stringbags
they will miss the zero sure but the zero sank no capital ship ever in the whole war
and slow claudes are better shooting slow biplanes

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Re: Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

Post by nota » 07 Jan 2023 02:27

btw fall 40 maybe best but if no russian war because this is hope to knock out england
so no russian attack at all in 1941 then the japan gets better toys in the air and the big boats by then plus more stuff

but so does the english in heavy arms
a timing problem best attack time is early but toys get better fast with just a little delay
ice makes late summer only time to do it 45 day or so window

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