Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

[nota]

Why are we even discussing this to this length? We all know it has zero probability.

The Kriegsmarine's surface ships were so much more interesting. So what if Germany starts the war with double the number of Hilfskreuzers? Could they sink double the Allied merchantmen? Or was it more like their extremely low numbers were part of their disguise? If the British could count on meeting Hilfskreuzers, would they be more suspecting and take them out more regularly? Could the Germans "saturate" the seas with Hilfskreuzers? If yes, then with how many?

well most have zero possibility
I try to move the axis in a direction it did not think of taking
so yes I propose something not done
by people who did not think that way

but try to keep it possible the japan's navy could move long distances
and will is easy if the adm yammi-baby had said we can't win we can hurt them
we can make them mad then we will lose after a lot of pain and suffering
I know them I will kill myself before I plan this
and made old emperor think even fear the very bad idea of england and the USA plus a dragging endless china mess
for an all in one nation vs the whole axis esp as the timing with england without standard equip lost in france

the point is it could win
with out any other changes
it was from german thought of lighting war cheap easy victory fast fast
so no long range plans no allied plans beyond next week

the war can't be won that way not with tricks luck or wonder weapons
only if they are as united as the brits and yanks were later do they have a chance

btw no fake Q ships at best disrupt supply 5% not a war changing strategy
and damm few ships to do it with better used as shipping anyway as they have far too few
and you want to send them out never to return like most u-boats

[Richard Anderson]

midway torpedo 8 all lost no hits STRONG CAP tb8 was way better then stringbags

The TBD was way better than the Swordfish? How many TBD were still in service in 1945? As a torpedo bomber the Swordfish was actually superior

The strong combat air patrol that intercepted VT-8 were in Zeros, not Claudes. You keep missing that your grand Japanese fleet in summer 1940 is not the well-oiled striking force you imagine it to be. It is three carriers with a mix of old and new aircraft that was not yet well versed at being an integrated striking force - it was created in April 1941 - and four fast battleships.

the channel dash all 6 shot down no hits STRONG LAND BASED CAP

Is the IJN in your scheme executing a Channel Dash? I thought they were sailing out of the Arctic onto the North Sea to execute a Pearl Harbor-style strike on the Grand Fleet swinging at anchor in Scapa Flow waiting for the Hochseeflötte to sortie from Kiel? :roll:

sure taranto berth like pearl not at sea aka sitting ducks
Mers-el-Kébir, BERTHED again no hits at sea against moving targets

They missed Bismarck? Good to know.

Königsberg was an old light cruiser not a capital ship very thin armor

So what? Was Bismarck?

only with no CAP WERE TB's

Do you take elocution lessons from ljadw? Only with no CAP were torpedo bombers what?

BTW, do you really think SHOUTING at random makes your replies more sensible?

[Peter89]

Why are we even discussing this to this length? We all know it has zero probability.

The Kriegsmarine's surface ships were so much more interesting. So what if Germany starts the war with double the number of Hilfskreuzers? Could they sink double the Allied merchantmen? Or was it more like their extremely low numbers were part of their disguise? If the British could count on meeting Hilfskreuzers, would they be more suspecting and take them out more regularly? Could the Germans "saturate" the seas with Hilfskreuzers? If yes, then with how many?

well most have zero possibility
I try to move the axis in a direction it did not think of taking
so yes I propose something not done
by people who did not think that way

but try to keep it possible the japan's navy could move long distances
and will is easy if the adm yammi-baby had said we can't win we can hurt them
we can make them mad then we will lose after a lot of pain and suffering
I know them I will kill myself before I plan this
and made old emperor think even fear the very bad idea of england and the USA plus a dragging endless china mess
for an all in one nation vs the whole axis esp as the timing with england without standard equip lost in france

the point is it could win
with out any other changes
it was from german thought of lighting war cheap easy victory fast fast
so no long range plans no allied plans beyond next week

the war can't be won that way not with tricks luck or wonder weapons
only if they are as united as the brits and yanks were later do they have a chance

btw no fake Q ships at best disrupt supply 5% not a war changing strategy
and damm few ships to do it with better used as shipping anyway as they have far too few
and you want to send them out never to return like most u-boats

Germany and Italy were not allies, not to mention Japan. And the rest of the Axis? Romania was at odds with Hungary and Bulgaria, and Slovakia fought a war with Hungary. Croatia was at odds with Italy, the same Italy that had conflicting interests with France (again, there has been a war) and Spain.

Fantasies about "better Axis cooperation" remained fantasies, because the Axis was no more an alliance than Serbo-Croat was a nation or Russians and Ukrainians were brothers. At every possible turn the nations in the Axis took up arms against one another and this could not have been otherwise before WW2.

[Urmel]

Why are we even discussing this to this length? We all know it has zero probability.

The Kriegsmarine's surface ships were so much more interesting. So what if Germany starts the war with double the number of Hilfskreuzers? Could they sink double the Allied merchantmen? Or was it more like their extremely low numbers were part of their disguise? If the British could count on meeting Hilfskreuzers, would they be more suspecting and take them out more regularly? Could the Germans "saturate" the seas with Hilfskreuzers? If yes, then with how many?

On Bang per buck baisis a sound investment. They could have easily had more but I would think woudl have needed a certain type of naval officer to be good at it.

Here a short web article about German supply ships that were quite active in surface raider support. They were successful for a time but the Royal navy started to put some time and effort into them and their effectiveness and utility dropped off. I read natter article on this recently I got it somewhere.

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedi ... rld-war-ii

Spoke one of my friends who is a big naval nerd he got a book on the Hilfkreusers I'llpick it up during the week,

Great article, thanks!

At this point the benefit of any WI thread is the information dredged up by the knowledgeable posters.

[Urmel]

BTW, do you really think SHOUTING at random makes your replies more sensible?

More amusing, for sure. Also, we all know that if you start typing in ALL CAPS, you must be right.

[pugsville]

Here a short web article about German supply ships that were quite active in surface raider support. They were successful for a time but the Royal navy started to put some time and effort into them and their effectiveness and utility dropped off. I read natter article on this recently I got it somewhere.

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedi ... rld-war-ii

Spoke one of my friends who is a big naval nerd he got a book on the Hilfkreusers I'llpick it up during the week,

Nice article. Thanks for sharing.

I'd be interested to know the title of the book your friend as I've been interested in this topic for a bit.

Crossed wires in my talking to him on the phone, it's in British Armed Merchant Cruisers 1878-1945 Osbourne, Spong & Groves,

While my typing and spelling is quite bad I also had diction and mumbling problems with verbal communications at times. so he mis understood what I was asking about and the book in British side of things. Most likely all my fault,

[T. A. Gardner]

midway torpedo 8 all lost no hits STRONG CAP tb8 was way better then stringbags

The TBD was way better than the Swordfish? How many TBD were still in service in 1945? As a torpedo bomber the Swordfish was actually superior

The strong combat air patrol that intercepted VT-8 were in Zeros, not Claudes. You keep missing that your grand Japanese fleet in summer 1940 is not the well-oiled striking force you imagine it to be. It is three carriers with a mix of old and new aircraft that was not yet well versed at being an integrated striking force - it was created in April 1941 - and four fast battleships.

the channel dash all 6 shot down no hits STRONG LAND BASED CAP

The Swordfish only worked as a torpedo bomber when it was unopposed. The Channel dash is mentioned. 8 Swordfish were sent to attack the German ships and the CAP the Germans had shot down all 8 well before they reached a launch point. The reason the Swordfish was retained in service by the British was it could operated from merchant aircraft carriers and other small flight decks while its supposed replacement the Albacore turned out less than ideal. That, and it was used in theaters where it faced little or no aerial opposition.

The USN with far more resources than the RN / FAA replaced the TBD with the TBF Avenger and likely would have taken the TBU/TBY Seawolf instead had Voight / Consolidated had the capacity to put it into production. These designs were far better than a Swordfish.

[Richard Anderson]

The Swordfish only worked as a torpedo bomber when it was unopposed.

Sorry but let me fix this for you. Torpedo bombers only worked as torpedo bombers when it was unopposed, which was one of the reasons torpedo bombers went out of favor after the end of World War II.

The Channel dash is mentioned. 8 Swordfish were sent to attack the German ships and the CAP the Germans had shot down all 8 well before they reached a launch point.

Indeed it was mentioned but it was six Swordfish not eight. More important, the mention of the event is taken entirely out of context.

The British had erred from the beginning by anticipating a German nighttime attempt at transiting the Channel, which threw all their plans into disarray.

At 1220 on 12 February 1942, when the six Swordfish of 825 Squadron FAA from Manston took off, the German squadron was about 10 miles north-northwest of Gravelines, steaming at 30 knots with a 30 knot wind and the Channel tide adding a fair measure to their speed. The aircraft then circled Manston until 1232. Why? Because they were waiting for the fifty-odd Spitfires that were to escort them and the thirty-odd Beaufort torpedo bombers of 42, 86 and 217 Squadrons RAF, which were actually intended to be the main strike force. Unfortunately, only seven Beauforts of 217 Squadron at Thorney Island, Portsmouth had arrived from other bases and were ready...and they were now 140 miles away.

In any event, only ten Spitfires of 72 Squadron arrived in time and at 1234, with the German squadron now closer to Ostende, the British attacked. Unfortunately, no one had told the Spitfire Squadron commander what the target was, which adds to the confusion. At 1240, seven of the Spitfires are attacked by large numbers of Bf 109 and FW 190 (32 were in the air over the German squadron) and lose contact with the Swordfish, while three other Spitfires stay with them and attempt to war off up to twenty other German fighters. By 1245 the action is over and all six Swordfish were lost.

An uncoordinated, poorly planned attack failed against a well-coordinated, well-planned defense. Quelle surprise!

The reason the Swordfish was retained in service by the British was it could operated from merchant aircraft carriers and other small flight decks while its supposed replacement the Albacore turned out less than ideal. That, and it was used in theaters where it faced little or no aerial opposition.

Sure, which is the same story with the Avenger, the Kate, the Beaufort, and all other torpedo bombers of all vintages.

The USN with far more resources than the RN / FAA replaced the TBD with the TBF Avenger and likely would have taken the TBU/TBY Seawolf instead had Voight / Consolidated had the capacity to put it into production. These designs were far better than a Swordfish.

Sure. So was the Beaufort. And the Spitfire and Hurricane was better than the Claude. The three Japanese carriers available in mid-1940, Akagi, Hiryu, and Soryu, would have about 36 A5M Claude, 108 B4Y Jean, and 60 D1A2 Susie embarked. :roll:

[paulrward]

Hello All ;

" The Swordfish relies on the ' Peggy '
The Modified Taurus ain't Sound
So the Swordfishes fly all the missions
While the Albacores rot on the ground !

Bring back, Bring back, oh bring back my Stringbag to me, to me,
Bring back, Bring back, oh bring back my Stringbag to me, to me !


Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward

[nota]

also the brits have a HUGE FLEET

but what % is in near home station not rest or refits

they are scattered far and world wide med far east assorted convoys to everywhere

we need local concentrated power not total were ever out of instant battle range

if the locals can be held off the landing ''work''
yes there is risk and it is a long shot
but I fail to see another way to win the total war
that is the MAJOR point it can win
where no other real plan could without lots of luck

and if england is not active in stopping axis trade world wide
or making it very hard and limited

then in a few years the red menace can be dealt with

and a cold war with the axis and the USA

[Richard Anderson]

also the brits have a HUGE FLEET

Why yes they did, which is the problem for the IJN and KM.

but what % is in near home station not rest or refits

As of c. 16 September 1940 when this harebrained effort would play out, the three Japanese fleet carriers, one light carrier, and four fast battleships, accompanied by perhaps four to eight heavy cruisers and perhaps two destroyer flotillas, would be facing:

Scapa Flow
1 BC: Repulse (RA(D)), 1 BM: Erebus  
1 CV: Furious (12 Skua, 18 Swordfish, 6 Gladiator)  
2 CA: Berwick, Norfolk  
1 CL: Glasgow 
1 CLAA: Curacao  
6 DD: Somali (D6), Eskimo, Matabele, Duncan, Versatile (under repair for damage to stern until 17 Sep), Vimy  
1 DE: Eglington 
1 SS: L.23  

Tyne: 
1 CL: Nigeria (completed working up 23 September, joined fleet at Scapa on 29 Sep, assigned to 10th CS) 
1 CL: Kenya (completed 27 Sep, joined fleet at Scapa for working up 29 Sep, assigned to 10th CS) 

Rosyth
2 BB: Nelson (C-in-C), Rodney  
1 BC: Hood (VA, BCS)  
3 CLAA: Naiad (RA, CS15), Bonadventure, Cairo (RA, AAS)  
14 DD: Cossack (D4), Maori, Sikh, Zulu, Jackal, Kashmir, Kipling, Ashanti, Bedouin, Punjabi, Tartar, Electra, Vortigern, Fame (damaged off Norway in bombing attack on 6 Jul 40 and repair completed 5 October) 
4 DE: Valorous, Vega, Verdun, Woolston  
1 TB: Sleipner (NO)  
2 SS: Seawolf, Snapper,  
 
Blyth
3 SS: Sturgeon, Swordfish, Ursula  
 
Humber
3 CL: Manchester (VA, CS18), Southampton (RA, CS18), Birmingham  
5 DD: Javelin (D5), Jupiter, Jaguar, Kelvin, Watchman 
 
Lowestoft 
1 TB: Draug (NO)

Harwich
6 DD: Malcolm (D16), Venomous, Verity, Wild Swan, Wivern, Worcester  
1 SS: H 44  

London
DD: Margaree (RCN) (damaged by bomb splinters 17 Sep) 

 Sheerness/Chatham
3 CL: Galatea (VA, CS2, (struck a mine night of 8/9 September and in repair at Chatham until 8 Jan 41), Aurora, Arethusa (rejoined 30 September after completing repairs at Chatham) 
10 DD: Brilliant, Icarus, Impulsive, Intrepid, Campbell (D21), Venetia, Vesper, Vivacious, Walpole, Foxhound (in refit from 11 Aug 40 to 12 Oct 40) 
12 DE: Cattistock, Eglinton, Holderness (under repair from mine damage until 22 September), Garth, Hambledon, Quorn, Vanity, Vimiera, Wallace, Westminster, Winchester, Wolsey  

Portsmouth
1 CL: Cardiff  
12 DD: Beagle, Bulldog, Havelock (D9), Harvester, Hesperus, Highlander, Vanoc, Viscount, Saladin, Sardonyx, Sturdy, Mistral  
2 DE: Berkeley, Fernie  
2 SS: Ondine, Orion  
6 MTB: MTB.3, MTB.4, MTB.5, MTB.25, MTB.30, MTB.33  
 
Southampton
2 DD: Volunteer, Wolverine  

Plymouth
1 BB: Revenge  
2 CL: Newcastle, Emerald  
11 DD: Isis, Broke, Vansittart, Whitehall, Westcott, Blyskawica (PO), Burza (PO), Ouragan (FFNL), Garland (PO)  
2 TB: Bouclier (FFNL) (in collision 17 Sep under repair until 30 Sep), La Melpomene (FFNL),  
 
Milford Haven
1 TB: G.13 (NL)  
 
Liverpool
3 DD: Vanquisher, Walker, Sabre  
 
Firth of Clyde
1 CA: Suffolk (damaged by air attack off Norway 16 Apr 40 and under repair until 24 Feb 41)  
1 CL: Sheffield  
12 DD: Keppel (D12), Achates, Active, Amazon, Ambuscade, Antelope, Anthony, Arrow, Douglas (ran aground 17 Sep and under repair until 30 Sep), Ottawa (RCN), Skeena (RCN), St Laurent (RCN)  
6 SS: Tigris, Otway, Upright, B.1 (NO), H.31, H.34  
1 CLAA: Phoebe (completed 2 October, joined fleet at Scapa for working up 4 Oct, assigned to 15th CS) 

Greenock
1 CL: Edinburgh (refit completed 29 Oct 40, began working up on 5 Nov 1940)  
1 CL: Fiji (torpedoed 1 Sep 40 and in repair at Greenock until 31 January 1941) 
1 DD: Mashona (refit completed 8 Oct 40) 

Glasgow:  
1 CA: Sussex (damaged by German air attack while in dry dock and under repair until 9 Aug 42) 
1 DD: Fearless (damaged in collision on 1 Aug 40 and in repair and then refit until 8 Oct 40) 

Oban/Tobermory
3 SS: H.32, H.33, H.50  
 
Belfast/Londonderry
3 DD: Shikari, Scimitar, Skate

they are scattered far and world wide med far east assorted convoys to everywhere

No, those are different forces than the above. for example, not counted in the above are the vessels assigned to Atlantic escort duties at the time:

8 DD: Veteran (left Harwich 17 Sep), Witherington (left Plymouth 16 Sep), MacKay (left Plymouth 15 Sep), Hurricane (left Liverpool 15 Sep), Winchelsea (left Liverpool 13 Sep), Warwick (left Liverpool 11 Sep), Witch (left Belfast 17 Sep), Wanderer (left Londonderry 16 Sep)  
2 DE: Vivien (left Rosyth 16 Sep), Wolfhound (left Rosyth 15 Sep),  
1 TB: G.15 (NL) (left Plymouth 16 Sep)  

Or the submarines on patrol:

17 SS: H.49, H.43, L.27, Clyde, Sunfish, Tuna, Taku, Talisman, Tribune, Cachalot, Porpoise, Utmost, O.9 (NL), O.22 (NL), O.23 (NL), Rubis (FFNL), Wilk (PO)  
 
Or the three destroyers stationed at Halifax:

Restigouche (RCN), Assiniboine (RCN), Saguenay (RCN)  

Or Force H at Gibraltar:

1 BC: Renown (VA, Force "H")  
8 DD: Gallant, Griffin, Encounter, Hotspur, Vidette, Velox, Wishart, Wrestler  

I suspect that such a harebrained scheme would also result in Force M aborting the Dakar mission and returning home:

2 BB: Barham, Resolution  
2 CV: Ark Royal (24 Skua, 30 Swordfish), Argus (no aircraft, en route to Scapa) 
3 CA: Devonshire (VA, CS1), Australia (RAN), Cornwall  
11 DD: Inglefield (D3), Echo, Eclipse, Escapade, Faulknor (D8), Firedrake, Foresight, Forester, Fortune, Fury, Greyhound  

we need local concentrated power not total were ever out of instant battle range

Yes, and the Japanese can not effect such a concentration 7,000-odd miles from its home bases.

if the locals can be held off the landing ''work''
yes there is risk and it is a long shot
but I fail to see another way to win the total war
that is the MAJOR point it can win
where no other real plan could without lots of luck

You think this is a real plan?

and if england is not active in stopping axis trade world wide
or making it very hard and limited

What worldwide axis trade? Prewar it was essentially nonexistent. Axis trade was with the United States, Great Britain, and some south American states for most goods, and trade for strategic materials, like rubber and oil, was with those who were later allies or neutrals.

then in a few years the red menace can be dealt with

and a cold war with the axis and the USA

The Iron Dream... :roll:

[Peter89]

What a trolling in a good thread.

[nota]

it has been noted that japan only has 3 big and a lite carrier

england has 1 CV: Furious (12 Skua, 18 Swordfish, 6 Gladiator) lite its self

likely sunk at it's berth in scapa flow first strike logical place to hit first just like pearl

SO NO LOCAL CARRIER vs 3+1

one at the rock and two way south one has no aircraft !!!!

others ? convoy somewhere not here

so we fight what is there with no warning or repositioning
as we descend from the ice with no warning or clues
red russians are not in the war no shipping up there to see our fleet

so yes long shot but a WINNER not a harebrained scheme like attacking england and USA at the same time as total war in china
or attacking the reds and HOPE THE house falls at a door kick those were harebrained schemes and LOST

[Peter89]

it has been noted that japan only has 3 big and a lite carrier

england has 1 CV: Furious (12 Skua, 18 Swordfish, 6 Gladiator) lite its self

likely sunk at it's berth in scapa flow first strike logical place to hit first just like pearl

SO NO LOCAL CARRIER vs 3+1

one at the rock and two way south one has no aircraft !!!!

others ? convoy somewhere not here

so we fight what is there with no warning or repositioning
as we descend from the ice with no warning or clues
red russians are not in the war no shipping up there to see our fleet

so yes long shot but a WINNER not a harebrained scheme like attacking england and USA at the same time as total war in china
or attacking the reds and HOPE THE house falls at a door kick those were harebrained schemes and LOST

In fact, Richard was not fair with you. That one minus fleet carrier might have been operational for this theoretical battle (note that I counted 4 fleet carriers plus 2 light ones), but if we assume that the IJN might be able to concentrate its forces near Britain, then Britain might be able to do the same.

You still did not take care of the problem of defeating the British. For that you have 3 approaches (see Jodl): 1. Direct invasion, 2. Cut the supply lines, 3. Destroy the Empire.

1. The Japanese fleet (neither in 1940 september nor in 1941 spring) was unable to make it happen.

2. Maybe temporary, but definately not on the long term.

3. The IJN was best positioned to do that in the Pacific and Idian Oceans, thus the World Voyage would never take place.

[Richard Anderson]

it has been noted that japan only has 3 big and a lite carrier

england has 1 CV: Furious (12 Skua, 18 Swordfish, 6 Gladiator) lite its self

No, England had multiple carriers but they move. In addition to the others, Illustrious put into Clydebank on 28 July and then later headed to the Med, passing Gibraltar on 30 August. Formidable was at Harland and Wolff Ltd. Belfast being completed and began her completion trials on October before joining the Home Fleet on 24 November.

likely sunk at it's berth in scapa flow first strike logical place to hit first just like pearl

Why? Are you still under the delusion that such an attack would be a surprise? Even assuming the USN does not twig to the Northeast passage through traffic analysis and RDF (the reasons that failed in the Pearl Harbor attack don't come into play in this scenario), they have to transit 900-odd miles of the Norwegian see to get into a launch position, which would be somewhere 75 to 140 miles north of the Shetland Islands. To get to Scapa they would either overfly the Shetlands or skirt them, which puts them in and over the patrol zones of the Northern Patrol - 16 AMC and 24 patrol and ASW trawlers tasked to look for things like an errant Japanese fleet.

Then there are the four AES radar stations (RN versions of the RAF CHL) on the Shetlands, at Sumburgh Head, Fair Isle (2), and Saxa Vord, and the two at Scapa. Then there are the RAF CH radar stations at Rosehearty, Netherbutton, St Cyrus, and Thrumster. And the 160-odd Hurricane, Spitfire, Bleinheim, and Whirlwind fighters of 13 Group RAF guarding the north.

SO NO LOCAL CARRIER vs 3+1

No but 160-odd fighters on an unsinkable aircraft carrier called Scotland.

one at the rock and two way south one has no aircraft !!!!

Um Renown was a battlecruiser "BC" not a carrier. The reason Argus did not have any aircraft aboard was because she was used to ferry aircraft to Freetown in British west Africa. She could carry 15 to 18 Skua and Swordfish.

others ? convoy somewhere not here

You really need to start doing some of your own research to back up your harebrained notion.

so we fight what is there with no warning or repositioning
as we descend from the ice with no warning or clues
red russians are not in the war no shipping up there to see our fleet

Sorry but that is all utter nonsense. You seem to imagine that you are simply transposing the Pearl Harbor attack to the Orkneys but have little idea of just how different those circumstances were.

so yes long shot but a WINNER not a harebrained scheme like attacking england and USA at the same time as total war in china
or attacking the reds and HOPE THE house falls at a door kick those were harebrained schemes and LOST