Kriegsmarine surface ships are more aggressive in the Atlantic.

[nota]

I do think a united effort has far more chance then the real world lame hope we [USA] GIVES UP at the sight of a few bodys or some crazy BS

or the german door knocking fable no idea why they thought declaring war on the USA was of any point or hope
EXCEPT as a too little to late bid to common war and maybe japan would do the same with the reds out of insane shared ideas ?

so maybe if the major axis players got a war plan
to limit the war to one nation and not any more scatter shot
of each nation picks a different war without warning
a year or two early starts helps
time to build stuff like landing craft assault boats mine layers and sweepers
scale back china war to get better trade deals with the USA
but that is not in place
and we want a use all they have but no rocket subs or other stuff not exastant

timing is a bug as 41 war toys in japans hands are better by a lot
but england is weaker in 40 by a bit
ice said late summer only real time
better axis at sea in 41 better brits on land

sorry but nobody is watching for the fleet from the ice
nothing goes there not even the english empire has any reason or fear from the ice there
so the air strike has a chance sure any opp can go midway or pearl
we guess no huge bad results surprise and luck they can win by an unexpected first strike
and part and bit strikes on the forces that attack them while the range of their air
allows the fleet to stay out of fighters from shore range

even if they trade ships with big loss on both sides
may not be many fit left to stop an invasion in time

[Richard Anderson]

sorry but nobody is watching for the fleet from the ice
nothing goes there not even the english empire has any reason or fear from the ice there
so the air strike has a chance sure any opp can go midway or pearl
we guess no huge bad results surprise and luck they can win by an unexpected first strike
and part and bit strikes on the forces that attack them while the range of their air
allows the fleet to stay out of fighters from shore range

Sorry but repeating something that isn't true doesn't make it true. The purpose of the Northern Patrol was to patrol the north, hence the name. The purpose of the radar on the Shetland and Orkney Islands and the Scottish mainland was to detect the approach of ships and aircraft from the north and east. The purpose of air bases there was to support 13 Group (and Coastal Command), which protected the north of England, something they did very well on 15 August 1940 when they detected aircraft of Lufflotte 5 from Stavanger and Aalborg.

You keep forgetting the Japanese would not be flying the aircraft of Pearl Harbor. Susie and Claude had two-thirds the range of Val and Zero. They have to get closer...and the British have no need to attack the Japanese fleet since the attrition of their aircraft would cripple the Japanese fleet.

even if they trade ships with big loss on both sides
may not be many fit left to stop an invasion in time

Why would there be a big loss on the British side? With any kind of warning the British should easily defeat the Japanese attack.

[Terry Duncan]

I do think a united effort has far more chance then the real world lame hope we [USA] GIVES UP at the sight of a few bodys or some crazy BS

or the german door knocking fable no idea why they thought declaring war on the USA was of any point or hope
EXCEPT as a too little to late bid to common war and maybe japan would do the same with the reds out of insane shared ideas ?

so maybe if the major axis players got a war plan
to limit the war to one nation and not any more scatter shot
of each nation picks a different war without warning
a year or two early starts helps
time to build stuff like landing craft assault boats mine layers and sweepers
scale back china war to get better trade deals with the USA
but that is not in place
and we want a use all they have but no rocket subs or other stuff not exastant

timing is a bug as 41 war toys in japans hands are better by a lot
but england is weaker in 40 by a bit
ice said late summer only real time
better axis at sea in 41 better brits on land

sorry but nobody is watching for the fleet from the ice
nothing goes there not even the english empire has any reason or fear from the ice there
so the air strike has a chance sure any opp can go midway or pearl
we guess no huge bad results surprise and luck they can win by an unexpected first strike
and part and bit strikes on the forces that attack them while the range of their air
allows the fleet to stay out of fighters from shore range

even if they trade ships with big loss on both sides
may not be many fit left to stop an invasion in time

Is this some form of modern poetry, where the use of capital letters, commas and full stops are no longer needed? Is this 'slam' history? Please try to write more clearly and engage in actual dialogue with people from now on!

Repeating a point over and over is hardly engaging in discussion and certainly doesnt make your point correct. There are many good reasons fleets have mostly shunned trying to go round the northern polar route and taken the far longer normal global shipping lanes as far as possible, rather like how ships try to avoid the great southern ocean, the weather is usually pretty poor to say the least, not forgetting the restrictions ice plays.

As Richard has said, in war Britain tended to operate a Northern Patrol force, mostly to enforce a blockade but also to keep watch on any approaches from this location. Radar and air patrols will also tend to spot any force approaching Scapa Flow if the fleet is present, and it could always be further south, at Rosyth, as the fleet was not always at Scapa due to operational needs.

Terry Duncan

[nota]

yes there was a NORTHERN PATROL

armed ships NOT warships no RADAR small guns and SLOW
AND NOT IN PLACE
as it was north of england looking for ships from or to the north sea via Iceland Greenland or island gaps
not up by the eastern ice when the fleet will exit the ice nor in the north sea proper just the western edges IN THE GAPS

a few subs to target the northern patrol as there was a history of subs sinking those armed ships
and a bit of luck and no early warning as they are looking far west and not for traffic coming south from the ice on the east side

[Richard Anderson]

yes there was a NORTHERN PATROL

armed ships NOT warships no RADAR small guns and SLOW

Indeed, as I said, AMC = Armed Merchant Cruisers, which were by accepted convention "warships". Armed with 4" AA, 6", and 8" guns for the most part and capable of 16 to 20 knots, so not particularly small or slow. In any case, engaging is not their purpose but rather finding is.

AND NOT IN PLACE
as it was north of england looking for ships from or to the north sea via Iceland Greenland or island gaps
not up by the eastern ice when the fleet will exit the ice nor in the north sea proper just the western edges IN THE GAPS

You need to get a map. You want to strike Scapa. The launch point for a strike has to be less than 200 miles away due to the limited range of the Japanese aircraft. British control of Iceland and the Northern Patrol operating between Iceland and the Faroes and between the Faroes and Shetlands limits the possible approaches to the Shetland-Norway passage. A launch point there is less than 80 miles from the Shetlands radar stations and is one of the favorite patrol areas for the Cruiser Force Home Fleet, which was often reinforced by a battlecruiser or two and possibly a carrier. Any flight from that launchpoint skirts the Shetlands and its radar coverage before passing to the radar coverage of the sets on Scapa and on the mainland.

a few subs to target the northern patrol as there was a history of subs sinking those armed ships

Um, six of at least twenty-eight sunk by subs over the course of the entire war doesn't mean that "a few subs to target" them will do diddly-squat.

and a bit of luck and no early warning as they are looking far west and not for traffic coming south from the ice on the east side

Sorry but again you need to look at a map. The Northern Patrol and British bases on Iceland cover the Iceland-Faroes-Shetlands gaps, while radar on the Shetlends, Orkneys, and mainland "look" north and east. A Japanese fleet debouching from the Northeast Passage need to sail over 900 miles to a launch point, skirting the Norwegian coast, with no one noticing, no Luftwaffe traffic about such a movement occurring (highly unlikely), and then has to get to its launch position within the RAF/RN radar envelop before executing the attack. To anticipate a similar level of surprise as occurred at Pearl Harbor is not waiting for a "bit of luck" but rather is hoping for a miracle on the order of the Second Coming.

[Peter89]

yes there was a NORTHERN PATROL

armed ships NOT warships no RADAR small guns and SLOW

Indeed, as I said, AMC = Armed Merchant Cruisers, which were by accepted convention "warships". Armed with 4" AA, 6", and 8" guns for the most part and capable of 16 to 20 knots, so not particularly small or slow. In any case, engaging is not their purpose but rather finding is.

AND NOT IN PLACE
as it was north of england looking for ships from or to the north sea via Iceland Greenland or island gaps
not up by the eastern ice when the fleet will exit the ice nor in the north sea proper just the western edges IN THE GAPS

You need to get a map. You want to strike Scapa. The launch point for a strike has to be less than 200 miles away due to the limited range of the Japanese aircraft. British control of Iceland and the Northern Patrol operating between Iceland and the Faroes and between the Faroes and Shetlands limits the possible approaches to the Shetland-Norway passage. A launch point there is less than 80 miles from the Shetlands radar stations and is one of the favorite patrol areas for the Cruiser Force Home Fleet, which was often reinforced by a battlecruiser or two and possibly a carrier. Any flight from that launchpoint skirts the Shetlands and its radar coverage before passing to the radar coverage of the sets on Scapa and on the mainland.

a few subs to target the northern patrol as there was a history of subs sinking those armed ships

Um, six of at least twenty-eight sunk by subs over the course of the entire war doesn't mean that "a few subs to target" them will do diddly-squat.

and a bit of luck and no early warning as they are looking far west and not for traffic coming south from the ice on the east side

Sorry but again you need to look at a map. The Northern Patrol and British bases on Iceland cover the Iceland-Faroes-Shetlands gaps, while radar on the Shetlends, Orkneys, and mainland "look" north and east. A Japanese fleet debouching from the Northeast Passage need to sail over 900 miles to a launch point, skirting the Norwegian coast, with no one noticing, no Luftwaffe traffic about such a movement occurring (highly unlikely), and then has to get to its launch position within the RAF/RN radar envelop before executing the attack. To anticipate a similar level of surprise as occurred at Pearl Harbor is not waiting for a "bit of luck" but rather is hoping for a miracle on the order of the Second Coming.

While the British system wasn't as flawless as you describe (see the Scapa Flow U-boat incident and the numerous voyages through the Denmark Straits), it would perform the best exactly against a large battle fleet nota imagined.

In my opinion, if the Japanese fleet would miraculously teleport into Kiel, they would be best employed in commercial raiding and supporting operations in the peripherial theatres.

[Richard Anderson]

While the British system wasn't as flawless as you describe (see the Scapa Flow U-boat incident and the numerous voyages through the Denmark Straits), it would perform the best exactly against a large battle fleet nota imagined.

I don't think I described it as flawless but its failures were against individual vessels or at most pairs of vessels that were attempting to avoid engaging the British Home Fleet and mainland. The exact opposite of what is posited here; just as you note yourself.

BTW, how many other submariners repeated Prien's feat at Scapa Flow?

[nota]

iceland is on the other side the west side

as are the Armed Merchant Cruisers

of the NORTHERN PATROL not north sea patrol
who are way over on the west side between islands

not up by spitsbergen or by norway

japans fleet exits the ice way east on the complete other side of the north sea
hundreds of miles away from the target practice opportunity your northern Armed Merchant Cruisers are too them

maybe later as a mop up but not a factor now

[Terry Duncan]

iceland is on the other side the west side

as are the Armed Merchant Cruisers

of the NORTHERN PATROL not north sea patrol
who are way over on the west side between islands

not up by spitsbergen or by norway

japans fleet exits the ice way east on the complete other side of the north sea
hundreds of miles away from the target practice opportunity your northern Armed Merchant Cruisers are too them

maybe later as a mop up but not a factor now

I asked you to write more clearly, such as the use of punctuation, and hopefully in structured sentences, as well as to engage in actual dialogue and not just repetition with people! Maybe you could also offer up something more than your opinion as way of supporting your claims. Further non-conforming posts will be deleted without further warning.

Terry

[Peter89]

While the British system wasn't as flawless as you describe (see the Scapa Flow U-boat incident and the numerous voyages through the Denmark Straits), it would perform the best exactly against a large battle fleet nota imagined.

I don't think I described it as flawless but its failures were against individual vessels or at most pairs of vessels that were attempting to avoid engaging the British Home Fleet and mainland. The exact opposite of what is posited here; just as you note yourself.

BTW, how many other submariners repeated Prien's feat at Scapa Flow?

Yes, but you made it sound a bit like as if it was impossible to avoid British patrols and early warning systems around Britain in 1940-1941
Although it does not make Operation World Voyage a sensible idea, it was definately not the case. I agree that these individual feats early in the war were more like exceptions rather than a rule, but eg. weather was a key factor that severly limited or extended the effectiveness of patrols. The blockade runners were rather effective with their pathetic speed and limited equipment, and that was a feat repeated multiple times. The polar night and bad weather gave opportunities to move even large forces of ships undetected for a long time, practically impossible to be targeted by aircrafts or submarines. The Scharnhorst was sunk this way. It was not before 1943 when this system started to function as perfectly as you described.

[Orwell1984]

to others in this thread is my style that evil to need an english majors editing or ban ?

or is our fearless leadership getting a bit full of themselves ?

and limiting ideas they do not like ?

Since you asked.

Your posts are hard to make head or tail of.

Ideas are strung together with little connection and it is frequently difficult to make sense of what you are ACTUALLY trying to say as words are often missing and one sentence can jump around to three different points.

Typos happen here and there.

Grammar and organization can be off.

But posting a word soup is just sloppy.

How you present your argument is just as important as what you have to say.

If you can't communicate your ideas in a legible, organized manner so that readers can follow the points you are trying to make, you're wasting your time and your reader's time.

Why should readers spend the time trying to decipher the points you are making when you can't be bothered to write clearly?

Why are you asking them to do the heavy lifting of figuring out what you mean and what you're trying to say?

It's your job as the writer to make your posts understandable.

Not to expect others to do it for you.

This may seem harsh but you did ask.

[nota]

yes there was a NORTHERN PATROL

armed ships NOT warships no RADAR small guns and SLOW

Indeed, as I said, AMC = Armed Merchant Cruisers, which were by accepted convention "warships". Armed with 4" AA, 6", and 8" guns for the most part and capable of 16 to 20 knots, so not particularly small or slow. In any case, engaging is not their purpose but rather finding is.

AND NOT IN PLACE
as it was north of england looking for ships from or to the north sea via Iceland Greenland or island gaps
not up by the eastern ice when the fleet will exit the ice nor in the north sea proper just the western edges IN THE GAPS

You need to get a map. You want to strike Scapa. The launch point for a strike has to be less than 200 miles away due to the limited range of the Japanese aircraft. British control of Iceland and the Northern Patrol operating between Iceland and the Faroes and between the Faroes and Shetlands limits the possible approaches to the Shetland-Norway passage. A launch point there is less than 80 miles from the Shetlands radar stations and is one of the favorite patrol areas for the Cruiser Force Home Fleet, which was often reinforced by a battlecruiser or two and possibly a carrier. Any flight from that launchpoint skirts the Shetlands and its radar coverage before passing to the radar coverage of the sets on Scapa and on the mainland.

a few subs to target the northern patrol as there was a history of subs sinking those armed ships

Um, six of at least twenty-eight sunk by subs over the course of the entire war doesn't mean that "a few subs to target" them will do diddly-squat.

and a bit of luck and no early warning as they are looking far west and not for traffic coming south from the ice on the east side

Sorry but again you need to look at a map. The Northern Patrol and British bases on Iceland cover the Iceland-Faroes-Shetlands gaps, while radar on the Shetlends, Orkneys, and mainland "look" north and east. A Japanese fleet debouching from the Northeast Passage need to sail over 900 miles to a launch point, skirting the Norwegian coast, with no one noticing, no Luftwaffe traffic about such a movement occurring (highly unlikely), and then has to get to its launch position within the RAF/RN radar envelop before executing the attack. To anticipate a similar level of surprise as occurred at Pearl Harbor is not waiting for a "bit of luck" but rather is hoping for a miracle on the order of the Second Coming.

While the British system wasn't as flawless as you describe (see the Scapa Flow U-boat incident and the numerous voyages through the Denmark Straits), it would perform the best exactly against a large battle fleet nota imagined.

In my opinion, if the Japanese fleet would miraculously teleport into Kiel, they would be best employed in commercial raiding and supporting operations in the peripherial theatres.

IF YOU WANT peripheral theaters WHY GO TO Kiel just sail where ever from japan would be better use of them ....
and they sail no teleport or miracles allowed ...
I want concentrated attack to invade and end a quick war not per longing the war all over
just a knock out blow total effort all in !

[Richard Anderson]

Yes, but you made it sound a bit like as if it was impossible to avoid British patrols and early warning systems around Britain in 1940-1941
Although it does not make Operation World Voyage a sensible idea, it was definately not the case. I agree that these individual feats early in the war were more like exceptions rather than a rule, but eg. weather was a key factor that severly limited or extended the effectiveness of patrols. The blockade runners were rather effective with their pathetic speed and limited equipment, and that was a feat repeated multiple times. The polar night and bad weather gave opportunities to move even large forces of ships undetected for a long time, practically impossible to be targeted by aircrafts or submarines. The Scharnhorst was sunk this way. It was not before 1943 when this system started to function as perfectly as you described.

I don't think I did. I described the reality as opposed to the imagination.

Yet again I think an important factor is getting missed. The Japanese will need to execute an air assault from aircraft carriers within 200 miles of Scapa. Polar night and bad weather are contraindicated for such an operation.

Yes they could use bad weather to mask their approach but they need good weather to execute the attack. Bad weather will not mask the approach of aircraft from radar. Bad weather will not mask ships within the radar envelope on the Shetlands, which limits just where they can launch from.

[Richard Anderson]

little bit of a English major dizzy tizzy there dude and a bit full of yourself in an imperial manor :roll:

He's a moderator, he's expressing the rules of the site.

sorry if I present a different style you disfavor but at 72 not in favor of school punctuation, and or in structured sentences

Being five years older than me justifies this bizarre Beverly Hillbillies form of expression you use? Why? If you can't be bothered to post intelligently the way most here do, including some for which English is very much a second language, then don't bother to post at all.

I strongly suggest a less dictatorial censorship position and just skip my post BUT leave them BE do not be that censor guy

It would be easy for everyone to skip your posts by putting you on ignore and believe me the temptation is there. Then you get to sit in an echo chamber but maybe that is what you've always wanted?

as I have got most of the ideas across without excess punctuation, and or in structured sentences, to your standards
and others here may understand even if you do NOT want to

Nope. I respond to what little I can make sense of out of your word soup because virtually none of whatever ideas you might have are coming across.

it is for fun not a big deal

What is for fun? Are you being intentionally illegible out of a bizarre sense of fun? Or are you persisting in lunatic ideas out of a bizarre sense of fun? Either way I suspect that few will put up with your ideas of fun for very long.

[paulrward]

Hello All :

Recently, Mr. Nota has come under criticism by some for the format, syntax,
and punctuation of his postings. Mr. Nota is NOT a newcomer to this forum, in
fact, he has been a contributor since 2006, more than sixteen years. While
at times his postings may seem somewhat opaque, I have been able to work
them out with little or no trouble, and they present some interesting ideas.

I am reminded of the late Neal Cassady, who served as the model for Jack
Kerouac's semi-fictional character Dean Moriarty. Cassady spoke in what can
only be described as a non stop, Stream of Consciousness flow of words and ideas.

Many people back in the 1960s, who were in what what we called the Straight
Community, could not understand him. But those of us who listened to what
he had to say, realized he was brilliant in his understanding of the world and
society around him.

As Driver Neal once said,

“We are actually fourth dimensional beings in a third dimensional body
inhabiting a second dimensional world!”

If you cannot understand what Mr. Nota is posting, just take a moment to figure
it out. It will be worth your while.

Respectfully

Paul R. Ward

― Neal Cassady

“My prose has no individual style as such, but is rather an unspoken and
still unexpressed groping toward the personal. There is something there that
wants to come out; something of my own that must be said. Yet, perhaps, words
are not the way for me.”