Is it true that mention of the Bereza Kartuska concentration camp (1934-1939) has been banned in Poland?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Guys,

Is it true that mention of the Bereza Kartuska concentration camp (1934-1939) has been banned in Poland and is now punishable under law?

Cheers,

Sid.

[gebhk]

Hi Sid

Not that I have heard and I probably would have. It has been suggested that calling it a concentration camp could be construed as falling foul of the "Polish Holocaust Law" as it has become known. Perhaps that is the context?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi gebhk,

The source did mention that this was a result of an extension of the Holocaust legislation.

This is the source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I9GKexZG9M

Cheers,

Sid

[wm]

Of course it isn't. Poland is certainly freer than Britain in this regard.
And it was an administrative detention camp (for criminals and political violence aficionados) for the simple reason the term "concentration camp" substantially changed its meaning post-war.

"History Debunked" is a know-it-all tabloid channel - from the British Orchestra to mRNA vaccines.
I've never seen any article in foreign media that correctly described the "Holocaust legislation."

[Michael Kenny]

The source ............

This is the source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I9GKexZG9M

I am amazed anyone watches this man. Far right loony would be an understatement. He is obsessed with 'Woke culture' and he never misses a chance to attack and slander minorities particularly those with with dark skin. I am guessing he attacks Poland here because he sees it as another example of 'wokism' and he is too dumb to check to see how right-wing the Polish Government is. Viewers would be making a big mistake if they imagine he is doing this because he is an anti-Semitism campaigner.
The film has just been posted so Sid caught it rather quickly. Perhaps a subscriber?

[wm]

The current Polish government isn't right-wing.
Using American political terminology (because today Poland is quite similar to the US):
the government (PiS) = a bunch of RINOs.
the opposition (PO + leftist splinter groups) = the Democrats.
The only right-wing party is Konfederacja - personal freedom and responsibility, religion, nationalism, and the right to bear arms.
All of them are inept beyond belief.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi wm..

You say, "I've never seen any article in foreign media that correctly described the "Holocaust legislation." If so, the Polish government has slipped up.

Perhaps you could direct us to the best available English language account, or explain it here yourself?

Cheers,

Sidf.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Michael Kenny,

This guy is not a "far right loony" but he certainly attracts them in his comments section. He does come across as a bit eccentric, but he is much more personally liberal than his audience in the comments section appears to be. They like to cherry pick the bits that conform to their own prejudices. His main strength is that he challenges a lot of current received consensus, which is no bad thing because it forces the rest of us to sharpen up our act.

More to the point, have you anything to offer on the subject of this thread?

And yes, I do subscribe. It makes it easier to disagree where necessary if one knows what is put up. This thread is a bit of fact checking for that reason.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Michael Kenny]

Hi Michael Kenny,

This guy is not a "far right loony" but he certainly attracts them in his comments section. He does come across as a bit eccentric, but he is much more personally liberal than his audience in the comments section appears to be.

Look at his old films and notice how he is obsessed with 'race' issues. His disgraceful attacks on Mary Secole (I stopped counting after 6 films) show show his true colours. He is an obsessed loony


Samples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuJ0Th_ ... ryDebunked

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1_AcPR ... ryDebunked

[gebhk]

Hi Sid

Short answer - no.

I think the piece by your youtube author gives an excellent example why many Poles are sensitive to the issue of calling Bereza Kartuska a 'concentration camp'. While by some very wide definition (and I mean wide - for one thing it was not by any stretch of the imagination a 'camp') it clearly can be called such however, as WM ponits out, after WW2 the term has acquired a much more narrow meaning in the minds of most people - one which by and large equates the term with extermination camp. I'm afraid I gave up watching after the classic 'did you know Jews were being sent to a concentration camp' spin. Classic spin because facts are being used to spin an entirely fallacious narrative. With equal validity one could say 'did you know that Pakistanis were being sent to a concentration camp in Guantanamo Bay' with the obvious implication of the existance of a US Govertnment, racially-motivated, anti-Pakistani campaign.

The analogy to Gitmo is not an entirely abstract one. There are many striking similarities. Both came into being as a reaction (some would argue knee-jerk reaction) to a terrorist outrage (9/11 and the assassination of Bronislaw Pieracki by an OUN terrorist, Hryhorij Maciejko (Григорій Мацейко), respectively), were of similar scale, results and, arguably, purpose. Both were, in essence an end run around proper judicial process to remove people deemed inconvenient or dangerous (or both) out of society and both used varied levels of torture and abuse of the prisoners which stopped short of deliberate murder to intimidate them and neutralise them as a threat. If I understand it correctly, in both cases the majority of the prisoners were never charged with any crime. There are also very close similarities in the impact serving in both these institutions had on the guards deployed to them. However, to group Gitmo and Bereza Kartuska with Nazi WW2 era concentration/extermination camps and pretend they were the same is simply grotesque.

I, personally, consider the banning of specific language ridiculous and futile (the real problem can be far more effectively dealt with by public disorder legislation and retail). However, this guy's spin that the issue of Bereza Kartuska can't be discussed at all in modern Poland, is utter bunkum - either dishonest or, at best, breathtakingly ignorant for someone who feels entitled to pontificate on the subject. It would be particulalry ironic were this true, because there was no such prohibition in place while the institution was active 1934-39. Indeed one of its more prominient critics was gen Kordian Zamorski, head of the State Police.....

[Michael Kenny]

However, this guy's spin that the issue of Bereza Kartuska can't be discussed at all in modern Poland, is utter bunkum - either dishonest or, at best, breathtakingly ignorant .....................

The Latter. He is a 'anti-woke crusader' and thus is primed to automatically attack anything he remotely believes to be 'cancel culture'. He rarely sees beyond the tabloid headlines that are crafted to specifically trigger him and his kind.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Michael Kenny,

He may be "an obsessed loony", but that doesn't necessarily make him wrong.

You raise Mary Secole as an example. What did he say about Mary Secole that is inaccurate? The floor is yours......

Cheers,

Sid.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi gebhk,

The fact that some people conflate the terms "concentration camps" and "extermination camps" does not stop the terms being useful differentiators of two different phenomena. On the surface, at least, Bereza Kartuska appears to have quite a lot in common with Dachau in the same decade and a great deal less with Auschwitz from 1942. This might be a case of "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck!"

Personally, I wouldn't defend Guantanamo Bay, especially after over 20+ years. This institution has done more damage to the US's reputation than all its inmates ever could if all released. In fact, about 800 men passed through Guantanamo and the Pentagon reckons only about one in seven (14%) have engaged in questionable activities since. And "questionable" is a pretty vague term! About 35 are still there, but even this figure apparently cannot be verified. The damage to the tradition of habeus corpus is far more serious than anything they have, or possibly even could, do to the US or the West collectively.

Anyway, it is good to know that this source may be overstating his case.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Michael Kenny]

You raise Mary Secole as an example. What did he say about Mary Secole that is inaccurate? The floor is yours......

I gave you an examples of his myopia. However it appears you suffer from the same disability.
I should have guessed that one of his subscribers would share his prejudices.

[gebhk]

Hi Sid

On the surface, at least, Bereza Kartuska appears to have quite a lot in common with Dachau in the same decade and a great deal less with Auschwitz from 1942.

Oh, a lot more than on the surface. Indeed, I believe that BK was modelled on Dachau, which at that point had been in operation for a year or thereabouts. And in fact, BK was called a concentration camp in the Polish press before the war, indeed not least by its enthusiastic supporters in some of the government mouthpieces. And, I guess, that is the point. Before the war concentration camp meant something somewhat different to what it did and does after it and the Dachau of 1933-39 was a somewhat different beast to that of 1942. However, Dachau was always an out of all proportion bigger and more murderous operation that BK, so direct comparisons can be misleading and why I think Gitmo is a better comparison. I agree with you about Guantanamo (especially given that it is the 21st century for goodness' sake) and that is another reason why, as well as what I said earlier, I made the comparison between BK and Gitmo. BK too probably did a lot more damage to the Sanacja government's standing than its internees ever could, both internally and abroad.

This whole issue, illustrates splendidly the folly of criminalising words. Criminalising the phrase 'Polish Concentration Camps', meant as a deterrent to using that phrase as a means to shifting the burden of guilt for Nazi crimes onto Poland has now made it theoretically dangerous to use that phrase when it is, arguably, appropriate. And I doubt that was the intent of those who drafted the legislation.

I'm afraid your source isn't overstating the case - he is talking through his hat, to be polite.