Did the 29th Division encounter Tigers in Normandy?

[Geoffrey Cooke]

It occurred to me recently looking at maps of Operation “Bluecoat” that the 10th SS Panzer Division “Frundsberg” (102nd SS Heavy Panzer Battalion attached) was deployed in the Vire valley area along with 3rd FJD, whilst V corps (led by 29th ID) was attacking down towards Vire itself, and captured the city. So does that mean:
1. There were engagements between the U.S. 29th ID and 10th SS FB? Or did 10th SS only fight 11th Armoured (British).
2. If U.S. 29th ID did fight 10th SS, does that mean it engaged Tiger tanks?

I think I read from Zaloga once that the only confirmed Tiger tank encounters by Americans in Normandy were during the Falaise Pocket, but this instance is weeks earlier.
For reference this map (there are some errors tho, I believe, since the elements left behind by 2nd Panzer Division (Heer) are identified as being 2nd SS “Das Reich” instead)
https://images.app.goo.gl/LbGrs13vEeMrziQNA

Thanks

[Richard Anderson]

It occurred to me recently looking at maps of Operation “Bluecoat” that the 10th SS Panzer Division “Frundsberg” (102nd SS Heavy Panzer Battalion attached) was deployed in the Vire valley area along with 3rd FJD, whilst V corps (led by 29th ID) was attacking down towards Vire itself, and captured the city. So does that mean:
1. There were engagements between the U.S. 29th ID and 10th SS FB? Or did 10th SS only fight 11th Armoured (British).
2. If U.S. 29th ID did fight 10th SS, does that mean it engaged Tiger tanks?

I think I read from Zaloga once that the only confirmed Tiger tank encounters by Americans in Normandy were during the Falaise Pocket, but this instance is weeks earlier.
For reference this map (there are some errors tho, I believe, since the elements left behind by 2nd Panzer Division (Heer) are identified as being 2nd SS “Das Reich” instead)
https://images.app.goo.gl/LbGrs13vEeMrziQNA

Thanks

I don't know of any verified instances of the 29th Inf Div encountering 10. SS. IIRC at the beginning of July it was facing 3. FJD but I'll see what I can find. I will note that First US Army recorded only three (IIRC) Tiger tanks destroyed in June and July, without further details. I suspect though that they were wrecks recovered by US forces rather than specifically knocked out by US forces.

[Kingfish]

Didn't Lehr have a small contingent of Tigers?

[Carl Schwamberger]

I've seen this question come up at least twice on this & other web sites. No one provided more than the vaguest circumstantial evidence that I saw.

Didn't Lehr have a small contingent of Tigers?

It did have the few Panther tanks the US Army fought in Normandy. Perhaps it did have some Tigers. The argument I saw was that it had some for training purposes, since the Lehr was a training unit. Right? Again I've not seen anyone put up more proof that that, but perhaps it will emerge this time around.

[Kingfish]

For what its worth:
http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normand ... gerob.html

On 1 June it had, including the attached 316. Pz.Kp. (Fkl), 99 Panzer IV, 89 Panther, 31 JagdPz IV, 10 StuG III, 8 Tiger (five of them were Tiger II).

It goes on to say:

The 316. Pz.Kp. (Fkl) did not bring its Tiger II tanks to Normandy. These vehicles were actually prototypes with technical deficiencies and it was ordered that they should be sent back to Germany. Since the rail net was damaged and the transfer of these vehicles had low priority they remained in Chateaudun. They were subsequently blown up to avoid capture.1

So the possibility of 3 Tiger I tanks with Lehr in Normandy?

[Michael Kenny]

Perhaps it did have some Tigers. The argument I saw was that it had some for training purposes, since the Lehr was a training unit. Right? Again I've not seen anyone put up more proof that that, but perhaps it will emerge this time around.

They had 3 Tiger I. No solid evidence of the use of these Tigers in Normandy has surfaced but there is evidence that they were still with the Unit when they moved to the coast on June 6.

[Dunnigan]

There were only three recorded engagements where the US faced Tiger Is and the first was after the bocage fighting in Normandy. Per Steven Zaloga in an interview:

"When you read unit accounts, whether it’s the actual unit after action reports or the published books, everyone talks about Tiger tanks. But in looking at it in both German records and US records, I’ve only found three instances in all the fighting from Normandy to 1945 where the US encountered Tigers. And by Tigers I mean Tiger 1, the type of tank we saw in the film. I’m not talking King Tigers, the strange thing is that the US Army encountered King Tigers far more often than Tigers. That’s partly because there weren’t a lot of Tigers left by 1944, production ends in August 1944. There were not a lot of Tigers in Normandy, they were mostly in the British sector, the British saw a lot of Tigers. Part of the issue is that US tankers were notorious for identifying everything as a Tiger tank, everything from Stug III assault guns to Panzer IV and Panthers and Tigers.

There was one incident in August of 1944 where 3rd Armored division ran into three Tigers that were damaged and being pulled back on a train, they shot them up with an anti-aircraft half-track. And then there was a single Tiger company up in the Bulge that was involved in some fighting. And then there was one short set of instances in April 1945, right around the period of the film, where there was a small isolated Tiger unit that actually got engaged with one of the new US M26 Pershing tank units. They knocked out a Pershing and then in turn that Tiger was knocked out and the Pershing tanks knocked out another King Tiger over the following days. So I found three verifiable instances of Tigers encountering, or having skirmishes with US troops in 1944-45. So it was very uncommon. It definitely could have happened, there are certainly lots of gaps in the historical record both on the German side and the US side. I think the idea that the US encountered a lot of Tigers during WW2 is simply due to the tendency of the US troops to call all German tanks Tigers. It’s the same thing on the artillery side. Every time US troops are fired upon, it’s an 88, whether it’s a 75mm Pak 40 anti-tank gun, a real 88, a 105mm field howitzer, they were all called 88’s."

[Michael Kenny]

Its a confused area. There is no photographic evidence for Tiger Is in action against US Forces until the Seine was crossed. There is a report on wrecks located by a battlefield clearance unit that has 1 or 2 Tigers hulks in areas where US troops overlapped with Commonwealth Forces and it is highly probable the 3 Lehr Tiger I were with the Unit and thus could have been in The US Sector when it fought there. It is not at all unlikely individual retreating Tigers were encountered in the confusion of The Falaise Pocket so it is possible. For sure there were enough Tiger I about late 1944-45 to have been encountered by US Troops. The train(s) stopped and engaged at Braine had at least 4 Tiger I wrecks being shipped back for homeland repair