The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
CogCalgary
Member
Posts: 412
Joined: 04 Aug 2021 21:31
Location: Calgary

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 28 Feb 2023 03:27

"As experienced covert operators with strong connections to American and European intelligence agencies,they were no doubt aware that Western and Soviet bloc governments as well as governments in the Middle East and Latin America were competing with one another to find and employ former nazis and nazi collaborators who could be useful in intelligence gathering, propaganda efforts,and chemical,biological,nuclear,and missile technology.However,they would not likely have known or imagined the full extent of the various programs to recruit war criminals,cleanse their records and put them to work for their new sponsors".

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8765
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by wm » 28 Feb 2023 11:06

The use of "nazis and nazi collaborators" instead of "Germans and German collaborators" + "programs to recruit war criminals" (it never happened) clearly betrays political motives (to smear everyone with "nazis") of the author.

CogCalgary
Member
Posts: 412
Joined: 04 Aug 2021 21:31
Location: Calgary

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 28 Feb 2023 13:12

wm wrote:
28 Feb 2023 11:06
The use of "nazis and nazi collaborators" instead of "Germans and German collaborators" + "programs to recruit war criminals" (it never happened) clearly betrays political motives (to smear everyone with "nazis") of the author.
Was Von Braun a Nazi party member?And also of German nationality?
The term Nazi almost always implied a person of German or Austrian nationality who was also a member of the Nazi party.
True or False?
Was Von Braun the only Nazi of interest?Highly doubtful.
Was his past smoothed over?
I would think that some were simply eliminated.
Operation Paperclip was all nonsense?

gebhk
Member
Posts: 2631
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by gebhk » 28 Feb 2023 15:38

It is probably resonable to say that they were German nationals, many of whom had been Nazis (of course whether you define being a Nazi as being a member of the NSDAP or, in the alternative, holding a certain set of political views is a bit of a can of worms in this regard, but one we don't need to address right now).

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8765
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by wm » 28 Feb 2023 23:07

Today when people hear "nazi," they think it's about those who burned Jews in ovens. When in fact, Germans didn't join the party to burn anybody but (pre-1933) primarily for idealistic reasons or (post-1933) for opportunistic reasons.
Similarly, young Germans joined the (military part of) SS because it was cool and exciting - much more than the Wehrmacht.
As it happened, von Braun, on both counts, joined for opportunistic reasons.
So although it's true that von Braun was a Nazi - it's an irrelevant truth.

After all, nobody mentions that Korolev and Gagarin were members of the communist party. And that Korolev created weapons for Stalin to burn to a cinder British and American cities.

Similarly, the Americans and the Soviets didn't recruit war criminals and didn't want to. And they didn't recruit Nazis. The "recruited" people were spoils of war, and the intention was to save money. As simple as that.
Nazis or war criminals among them weren't recruited intentionally.

CogCalgary
Member
Posts: 412
Joined: 04 Aug 2021 21:31
Location: Calgary

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 01 Mar 2023 03:47

wm wrote:
28 Feb 2023 23:07
Today when people hear "nazi," they think it's about those who burned Jews in ovens. When in fact, Germans didn't join the party to burn anybody but (pre-1933) primarily for idealistic reasons or (post-1933) for opportunistic reasons.
Similarly, young Germans joined the (military part of) SS because it was cool and exciting - much more than the Wehrmacht.
As it happened, von Braun, on both counts, joined for opportunistic reasons.
So although it's true that von Braun was a Nazi - it's an irrelevant truth.

After all, nobody mentions that Korolev and Gagarin were members of the communist party. And that Korolev created weapons for Stalin to burn to a cinder British and American cities.

Similarly, the Americans and the Soviets didn't recruit war criminals and didn't want to. And they didn't recruit Nazis. The "recruited" people were spoils of war, and the intention was to save money. As simple as that.
Nazis or war criminals among them weren't recruited intentionally.
Sure.I understand that many went along with it.Just look at the past few years and there is no wonderment about how it happened.
But two things are interesting in this paper.Actually 3.
The mention of the three missions.Two are "known".
Both Allied losses.
All the other scientists not named Werner.
A first pass on Google and I did not see an English version of Husayni 1999.I will look again when I have more time.

CogCalgary
Member
Posts: 412
Joined: 04 Aug 2021 21:31
Location: Calgary

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 03 Mar 2023 03:09

The Memoirs of Haj Muhammad Amin Husayni
Quoted as Husayni 1999 in the paper.
Does not appear in a Google book search.

Princess Perfume
Member
Posts: 240
Joined: 27 Mar 2014 10:11
Location: BBC Television Centre, London, England

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by Princess Perfume » 03 Mar 2023 18:16

Until the Palestinians admit defeat - and do so publicly - and cease their acts of random terror and murders - and cease delegitimization tactics like BDS and votes at the UN - they will get nothing from the the vast majority of the world's Jews or any conceivable Israeli government. Since i have no expectations of the Palestinian leadership leaving that fantasy land of "resistance", what I think will happen is the current stalemate will drag on for more decades while the Jewish reclamation of Judea and Samaria continues.

CogCalgary
Member
Posts: 412
Joined: 04 Aug 2021 21:31
Location: Calgary

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 03 Mar 2023 19:45

Princess Perfume wrote:
03 Mar 2023 18:16
Until the Palestinians admit defeat - and do so publicly - and cease their acts of random terror and murders - and cease delegitimization tactics like BDS and votes at the UN - they will get nothing from the the vast majority of the world's Jews or any conceivable Israeli government. Since i have no expectations of the Palestinian leadership leaving that fantasy land of "resistance", what I think will happen is the current stalemate will drag on for more decades while the Jewish reclamation of Judea and Samaria continues.
With the Iranians becoming bolder by the day the situation may come to a head in years rather than decades.Maybe even within the year.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10162
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 Mar 2023 14:46

Hi Princess Perfume,

What you say may be true, but why SHOULD the Palestinians admit defeat?

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Palestinian population growth within the state of Israel alone has so far kept pace with Jewish immigration and natural growth combined - and there aren't that many outside Jews left who want to flee to Israel and the most rapid natural growth amongst Jewish Israelis is among the Ultra Orthodox who often to not recognize the current state of Israel and are exempt from military service.

"Next year in Jerusalem" was a parting between Jews for nearly 2,000 years and yet eventually it came true. Perhaps the Palestinians could play the long game too?

Cheers,

Sid.

Princess Perfume
Member
Posts: 240
Joined: 27 Mar 2014 10:11
Location: BBC Television Centre, London, England

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by Princess Perfume » 04 Mar 2023 19:19

Sid Guttridge wrote:
04 Mar 2023 14:46
Hi Princess Perfume,

What you say may be true, but why SHOULD the Palestinians admit defeat?

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Palestinian population growth within the state of Israel alone has so far kept pace with Jewish immigration and natural growth combined - and there aren't that many outside Jews left who want to flee to Israel and the most rapid natural growth amongst Jewish Israelis is among the Ultra Orthodox who often to not recognize the current state of Israel and are exempt from military service.

"Next year in Jerusalem" was a parting between Jews for nearly 2,000 years and yet eventually it came true. Perhaps the Palestinians could play the long game too?

Cheers,

Sid.
I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear that I don't accept the premises of that question. I don't accept that the Israel-Palestine conflict is a war, I don't accept that it's been particularly brutal, and I don't agree that it's futile, as far as Israel is concerned anyway. In fact, Israel has very successfully defended itself for over 70 years with a pretty minimal use of force. The total dead on all sides in all phases of the conflict since the Mandate was established in 1922 is about 130,000. Compare that to over 2 million in the Nigerian Civil War, 1.2 million in the Iran-Iraq War, or over 500,000 so far in Syria. For most of the century since 1922 there has been only low-level unrest, punctuated by occasional outbreaks of violence and five or six short wars. Even the worst of these, the Yom Kippur War and the First Lebanon War, killed about 20,000 each - very minor compared to most contemporary wars. Even now, in most places most of the time, there is no real conflict.

As to what the Palestinian people need to do. First they and their friends in the west need to accept that Israel is completely military and economically dominant in the region, and as well has an unbreakable alliance with the world's greatest military power. There is absolutely no way a rag-tag collection of militias can defeat Israel. All they can do is annoy it. Surely a century of wars, riots, intifadas and terrorism has been enough to demonstrate that. Nor will Israel be defeated, or even deflected, by votes at the UN or the BDS movement, which has had almost no impact on the Israeli economy.

So if the Palestinians want a state, they can only have one on Israel's terms. That means they must accept defeat, and do so publicly. Then they can enter direct negotiations and see what Israel will offer. Obviously under this Israeli government, that won't be much, if anything. One day there will be an Israeli government more amenable to concessions - but only if and when the Israeli electorate is really convinced that the Palestinians have given up trying to kill them. That will probably take more than one Israeli electoral cycle. But since, as I said above, most Palestinian "resistance" is performative rather than guided by any rational strategy, I don't expect any such thing to happen. And that suits Israel just fine, because the longer the Palestinians live in the fantasyland of "resistance," the more complete the Jewish reclamation of Judaea and Samaria will become and the less possible it will be to create a viable Palestinian state.

OK, let us suppose that Israel were to formally annex Judaea and Samaria, abolish the PA and suppress the various militias. They would then have to decide what regime to impose in that region. They could (a) declare all the Arab residents to be Israeli citizens with full political rights, (b) give them the choice of citizenship and a bus ticket to Jordan, (c) treat them as a permanent non-citizen population with local or cantonal self-government. All these options have advocates in Israel, but all present obvious problems. The first would give Israel a 40% Arab minority rather than the current 20% and make Israel politics even more unworkable than they are at present. I don't think this will ever be acceptable to the Israeli electorate. The second would amount to forcible expulsion of over 2 million people which I think even the Israeli far right would baulk at. The third would create a real apartheid system with Arab bantustans surrounded by Israeli territory, and a source of endless conflict. I don't think any of these alternatives is desirable or workable, which is why I continue to support a Palestinian state as the least bad solution.

CogCalgary
Member
Posts: 412
Joined: 04 Aug 2021 21:31
Location: Calgary

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 05 Mar 2023 06:36

Number three will prevail.Iron Dome and high powered lasers will defeat any hypersonics.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 9002
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by michael mills » 06 Mar 2023 00:29

What has all this speculation about the future course of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians have to do with the topic under discussion, namely the alleged role of the Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin Al-Husayni in the Holocaust?

CogCalgary
Member
Posts: 412
Joined: 04 Aug 2021 21:31
Location: Calgary

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 06 Mar 2023 03:52

Nothing.
Simply wondering why the Memoirs of Husayni are not easily available in English.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 9002
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by michael mills » 06 Mar 2023 06:25

Probably because no publisher has seen any prospect of financial gain from having them translated and published.

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”