How reliable was the Tiger 2?

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Erik1
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Re: How reliable was the Tiger 2?

Post by Erik1 » 02 Mar 2023 18:12

Michael Kenny wrote:
11 Jan 2023 21:58
Don Juan wrote:
11 Jan 2023 21:25


But Newsome's assertion that Allied tanks landed in Algeria which had to take a "long drive" into Tunisia only accumulated a third of the mileage of Tigers landed directly into Tunisia over the same period is obviously questionable. He also doesn't seem to understand Allied policy, which was to develop tanks to achieve 3000 mile overhaul lives and prove it in testing, Whether they were overhauled over shorter mileages in the field was more to do with having the resources available during lulls in the fighting. For example the British overhauled a large proportion of their tanks prior to Operation Plunder not because they needed to, but because they could.
Newsome is a man with a series of book(s) to sell and a pay-to-view video channel and he should be seen first and foremost in that light. He deliberately misquotes and cherry picks those facts than endear him to the Tiger fan club. Not many of his followers can or care about checking his claims. Perhaps he should be seen as a less blatant Mark Felton?
It would be nice if someone could check whether Newsome gives a source for the Tigers that reached 3000 km in one of the battalions. I remember that in his interview with Sofilein, she said that one of the good things with his book is that he cites a lot of sources.

I don't have the money to buy any books and haven't been able to find any pirated online either.

Michael Kenny
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Re: How reliable was the Tiger 2?

Post by Michael Kenny » 02 Mar 2023 18:34

Erik1 wrote:
02 Mar 2023 18:12


It would be nice if someone could check whether Newsome gives a source for the Tigers that reached 3000 km in one of the battalions. I remember that in his interview with Sofilein, she said that one of the good things with his book is that he cites a lot of sources.

I don't have the money to buy any books and haven't been able to find any pirated online either.
I think the public-facing Newsome is deliberately NOT giving his sources and making people want to buy his books or subscribe to his pay-to-view content to find them. It seems that you are on the cusp of falling for his con and I urge you to resist. I too used to be on this treadmill where you just have to pay a fortune for a single photo or quote from a very expensive book. My breaking point was the Polish TII hardbound volumes. I just thought it was far too much and I skipped them. Turns out I did not miss anything and I am much more picky now. From the Newsome 'references' I checked out he seems to 'part-quote' a lot and chop off bits that do not support his claims.

Erik1
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Re: How reliable was the Tiger 2?

Post by Erik1 » 03 Mar 2023 06:33

Michael Kenny wrote:
02 Mar 2023 18:34
Erik1 wrote:
02 Mar 2023 18:12


It would be nice if someone could check whether Newsome gives a source for the Tigers that reached 3000 km in one of the battalions. I remember that in his interview with Sofilein, she said that one of the good things with his book is that he cites a lot of sources.

I don't have the money to buy any books and haven't been able to find any pirated online either.
I think the public-facing Newsome is deliberately NOT giving his sources and making people want to buy his books or subscribe to his pay-to-view content to find them. It seems that you are on the cusp of falling for his con and I urge you to resist. I too used to be on this treadmill where you just have to pay a fortune for a single photo or quote from a very expensive book. My breaking point was the Polish TII hardbound volumes. I just thought it was far too much and I skipped them. Turns out I did not miss anything and I am much more picky now. From the Newsome 'references' I checked out he seems to 'part-quote' a lot and chop off bits that do not support his claims.
I understand that what you say is very possible, and I won't buy Newsome's book until I know more. The jury is still out for me though. What sort of references, besides the Otto Carious quote about the 5000 km lifespan of the engines, have you checked?

Also, when you said that Otto's quote is surely taken from the Tiger manual because it's so similar, did you look at a German version of Otto's book?

Michael Kenny
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Re: How reliable was the Tiger 2?

Post by Michael Kenny » 04 Apr 2023 23:13

Erik1 wrote:
03 Mar 2023 06:33


Also, when you said that Otto's quote is surely taken from the Tiger manual because it's so similar, did you look at a German version of Otto's book?
Decide for yourself where the Carius 'quote' came from.
Tiger fiebel 5000 km b.jpg
Tigers In The Mud page 21
Tigers In The Mud page 21 .jpg
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Michael Kenny
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Re: How reliable was the Tiger 2?

Post by Michael Kenny » 06 Apr 2023 19:53

Erik1 wrote:
06 Dec 2022 05:28

From a combat report:
"Regarding the overheating engines, the HL 210 engine caused no troubles during the recent time. All occurring breakdowns resulted from the low quality of driver training. In several cases engine failures have to be put down to the missing remote engine thermometer. Five engines have reached more than 3,000 km without essential failures.

The above appears (word-for-word) in Thomas Anderson's 2013 Osprey book 'Tiger', pages 56-57.

It is also mentioned in Volker Ruff's '2015 book 'Der Tiger Vol 1 sPz Abt 501 page 58 , as :

Some engines were run for 3,000 km or more before needing to be changed, as recorded in 5th Army's technical bulletin Nr 6.

Though Jentz makes use of a number of these reports in his 'Tiger I &II Combat Tactics book (report 3,page 50. report 4 page 51 twice. report 6 page 52) he only prints the bits in report 6 about the loss of 4 Tigers. Quite why Jentz neglected the 3,000 km mention is a puzzle.
Perhaps someone with access to the original Technical Report No. 6, from Truppen-Ingenieur Panzer-Abteilung 501 can clear this up?



Erik1 wrote:
06 Dec 2022 05:28
I asked Bruce on Youtube if the 5000 km/overhaul figure was some pre-made recommendation or came from the troops in combat reports, he said combat reports. I got the impression he meant it's for the whole drivetrain, not just engine.................
I am convinced Newsome got the 5,000 km figure from The Tigerfibel. Its the only place that figure is used. It seems Newsome was so taken by this passing reference

'with a regularly cleaned filter everyone could get 5,000 km of operation on a single motor. If the filters were covered with dirt we couldn't get 500.'

that he immediately transformed it into a 'combat report' and then a official planned overhaul target for the engine. It says nothing of the sort and despite this it is the foundation of all his later fictions. It is very revealing the Newsome has never given a single checkable reference for the 5,000 km claim. His standard reply to any challenge is 'buy the book' and if pressed will grudgingly mumble 'combat reports'.

Michael Kenny
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Re: How reliable was the Tiger 2?

Post by Michael Kenny » 06 Apr 2023 20:50

There is the 2003 JJF Book 'Combat History Of sPz Abt 507', page 60:

Tiger 2000 km pg 60 '507' History (1).jpg
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Peter89
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Re: How reliable was the Tiger 2?

Post by Peter89 » 03 May 2023 11:54

Engine life was nowhere near 2000-5000 km. I read a great deal of manuals in Freiburg mostly about aircraft engines but about motor vehicle engines, too. By the time an engine reached 2000 km, it had undergone many repairs, overhauls and possibly reconditioning. I believe 2000 km refers to the "engine life" in the sense that it was the distance it could travel before the whole engine block had to be removed. A normal engine ran about 50 to 150 hours before it needed an overhaul, with partial overhauls at 25 hours. The Me 262 required an overhaul at 25 hours, a partial overhaul at 12.5 hours. Reliability is not quite the same as maintenance requirement.

The 1:10 ratio is also not confirmed in my sources. Sand and dust usually cut engine life by half, not by 90%. If 500 km was to be achieved without an exchange of engines (reasonable), then the extreme care and luck might push this number to approximately 1000 km. I believe that 2000 km was reached only when there was careful driving, good terrain/weather conditions, abundant preventive maintenance, regular checkups, partial overhauls and the such.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

Michael Kenny
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Re: How reliable was the Tiger 2?

Post by Michael Kenny » 17 May 2023 18:46

1945 report.
Report on Tanks April 1945 ,, (2)b-vert.jpg
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Don Juan
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Re: How reliable was the Tiger 2?

Post by Don Juan » 27 May 2023 17:22

Michael Kenny wrote:
17 May 2023 18:46
1945 report.

Report on Tanks April 1945 ,, (2)b-vert.jpg
This is what happens when you learn in the desert that the side who wins in armoured warfare is not necessarily the side with the biggest guns and thickest armour, but the side whose tanks wear out last.
"The demonstration, as a demonstration, was a failure. The sunshield would not fit the tank. Altogether it was rather typically Middle Easty."
- 7th Armoured Brigade War Diary, 30th August 1941

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Don Juan
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Re: How reliable was the Tiger 2?

Post by Don Juan » 27 May 2023 20:51

Michael Kenny wrote:
06 Apr 2023 19:53
Perhaps someone with access to the original Technical Report No. 6, from Truppen-Ingenieur Panzer-Abteilung 501 can clear this up?
You can read it yourself here:

https://www.panzer-elmito.org/tanques/t ... 943_D.html
"The demonstration, as a demonstration, was a failure. The sunshield would not fit the tank. Altogether it was rather typically Middle Easty."
- 7th Armoured Brigade War Diary, 30th August 1941

Michael Kenny
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Re: How reliable was the Tiger 2?

Post by Michael Kenny » 27 May 2023 21:41

I read this as saying the engines reached almost 3000 km but the two earlier mentions say over 3000 km.

.
Which is correct?

.
Screenshot_rrrr185 c.jpg
Erik1 wrote:
07 Dec 2022 10:13
"

From a combat report:
"Regarding the overheating engines, the HL 210 engine caused no troubles during the recent time. All occurring breakdowns resulted from the low quality of driver training. In several cases engine failures have to be put down to the missing remote engine thermometer. Five engines have reached more than 3,000 km without essential failures."

Michael Kenny wrote:
06 Apr 2023 19:53

It is also mentioned in Volker Ruff's '2015 book 'Der Tiger Vol 1 sPz Abt 501 page 58 , as :

Some engines were run for 3,000 km or more before needing to be changed, as recorded in 5th Army's technical bulletin Nr 6.
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Denniss
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Re: How reliable was the Tiger 2?

Post by Denniss » 02 Jun 2023 06:09

they have not reached 3000 km (yet) per this report
Interesting the report of 400km (road?) marches in Afrika and then directly into combat. Report suggests a quick maintenance check after 300km so their drivetrain components have a much higher chance of surviving the massive mechanical stress from the combat actions. I read that the 400km + combat tigers that survived the combat had mostly broken down and had to be towed

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Don Juan
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Re: How reliable was the Tiger 2?

Post by Don Juan » 02 Jun 2023 19:40

Another example of the comparative durability/reliability of Allied tanks:

oocihm.lac_reel_c5777.1944.jpg
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"The demonstration, as a demonstration, was a failure. The sunshield would not fit the tank. Altogether it was rather typically Middle Easty."
- 7th Armoured Brigade War Diary, 30th August 1941

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