Me-JAGUAR [?] aircraft

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Dann Falk
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Me-JAGUAR [?] aircraft

Post by Dann Falk » 06 Mar 2023 21:10

Greetings all.

I'm working on, translating, a Soviet Historical report from 1943.

Within the report about the 17 Air Army, it talks about 2 Me-JAGUAR (ЯГУАР) German aircraft. Any Idea what aircraft they were referring to?

Thanks for any help.

Dann

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Prosper Vandenbroucke
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Re: Me-JAGUAR [?] aircraft

Post by Prosper Vandenbroucke » 06 Mar 2023 22:20

Hi Dann,
Imho, I guess, the russian report was only speaking about the Messerschmitt Bf 162 which was a light bomber aircraft designed in Germany prior to World War II, which flew only in prototype form.
The Bf 162 was designed in response to a 1935 RLM (Reichsluftfahrtministerium, Reich Aviation Ministry) specification for a schnellbomber ("fast bomber") for tactical use. Messerschmitt's design was a modified Bf 110 with a glazed nose to accommodate a bombardier. In 1937, three prototypes were flown against rival designs, the Junkers Ju 88 and the Henschel Hs 127, both entirely new aircraft.
It was eventually decided that the Ju 88 be selected for production, and development of the Bf 162 ended. As a disinformation tactic, images of the Bf 162 were widely circulated in the German press, captioned as the "Messerschmitt Jaguar", a name never used outside this context


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_162
Kindly regards from Belgium
Prosper :wink: :wink:

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Re: Me-JAGUAR [?] aircraft

Post by Dann Falk » 06 Mar 2023 23:06

Prosper Vandenbroucke wrote:
06 Mar 2023 22:20
Hi Dann,
Imho, I guess, the russian report was only speaking about the Messerschmitt Bf 162 which was a light bomber aircraft designed in Germany prior to World War II, which flew only in prototype form.
The Bf 162 was designed in response to a 1935 RLM (Reichsluftfahrtministerium, Reich Aviation Ministry) specification for a schnellbomber ("fast bomber") for tactical use. Messerschmitt's design was a modified Bf 110 with a glazed nose to accommodate a bombardier. In 1937, three prototypes were flown against rival designs, the Junkers Ju 88 and the Henschel Hs 127, both entirely new aircraft.
It was eventually decided that the Ju 88 be selected for production, and development of the Bf 162 ended. As a disinformation tactic, images of the Bf 162 were widely circulated in the German press, captioned as the "Messerschmitt Jaguar", a name never used outside this context


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_162
Kindly regards from Belgium
Prosper :wink: :wink:
Thanks for the fast reply.
The original document on 17 May 1943 listed the following German aircraft in action in the 17 AA Zone (98 He-111, 31 Ju-88, 16 Me-110, 11 Me-109, 4 Fw-189, 2 Me-JAGUAR aircraft.) I checked with my Warplanes of the Third Reich book by William Green. It has two pages on the Bf 162 and it appears to have been used as recon aircraft. But according to Wiki Pages, only three of these aircraft were produced. So, two out of three of them were on the same mission? This makes me think the Russian Aerial Observation troops misidentified the aircraft. What do you think?

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Prosper Vandenbroucke
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Re: Me-JAGUAR [?] aircraft

Post by Prosper Vandenbroucke » 06 Mar 2023 23:31

Hi Dann,
I don't think anything but a mistake is still possible.
Sorry for my poor english.
Kindly regards from Belgium and spend a good day
Prosper :wink: :wink:
NB. I am gooing to sleep. It's 11:30 pm

Dann Falk
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Re: Me-JAGUAR [?] aircraft

Post by Dann Falk » 07 Mar 2023 01:30

Greetings Prosper and Much Thanks,

I believe the Bf 162 part of the report is a misidentified aircraft. I made note of it in my paper just in case.
Trying to translate 80-year-old Russian reports can be a problem. Your insight helped me out.
Once again, Thank you for your help.
Dann

Liebe Grüße und vielen Dank,
Ich glaube, der Bf 162-Teil des Berichts ist ein falsch identifiziertes Flugzeug. Ich habe es für alle Fälle in meiner Zeitung notiert.
Der Versuch, 80 Jahre alte russische Berichte zu übersetzen, kann ein Problem sein. Deine Einsicht hat mir weitergeholfen.
Nochmals vielen Dank für Ihre Hilfe.

Salutations Prosper et merci beaucoup,
Je crois que la partie Bf 162 du rapport est un avion mal identifié. Je l'ai noté dans mon article au cas où.
Essayer de traduire des rapports russes vieux de 80 ans peut être un problème. Votre perspicacité m'a aidé.
Encore une fois, merci pour votre aide.

Art
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Re: Me-JAGUAR [?] aircraft

Post by Art » 07 Mar 2023 08:23

IMO, it came from distorted Jagdflieger, Jagdbomber or anything else with Jagd-. Just a hypothesis.

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Prosper Vandenbroucke
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Re: Me-JAGUAR [?] aircraft

Post by Prosper Vandenbroucke » 07 Mar 2023 12:12

Hi Dann
Thank you very much for the translation in German and french language
I have no more information and I think it's a misidentenfication. Maybe a Bf 110

Have a nice day
Regards
Prosper
Last edited by Prosper Vandenbroucke on 07 Mar 2023 19:32, edited 1 time in total.

Dann Falk
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Re: Me-JAGUAR [?] aircraft

Post by Dann Falk » 07 Mar 2023 16:55

Art wrote:
07 Mar 2023 08:23
IMO, it came from distorted Jagdflieger, Jagdbomber or anything else with Jagd-. Just a hypothesis.
Greetings Art,

Yes, I agree, but I do not know which one is true. Without more information a misidentified aircraft listing is best. I have reviewed many of these reports and this is the first time I have seen the JAGUAR. :o

Dann

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Re: Me-JAGUAR [?] aircraft

Post by Paul_Atreides » 18 Mar 2023 18:13

me-jaguar1.jpg
me-jaguar2.jpg
me-jaguar3.jpg
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There is no waste, there are reserves (Slogan of German Army in World Wars)

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Re: Me-JAGUAR [?] aircraft

Post by Paul_Atreides » 18 Mar 2023 18:16

me-jaguar4.jpg
me-jaguar5.jpg
me-jaguar6.jpg
me-jaguar7.jpg
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There is no waste, there are reserves (Slogan of German Army in World Wars)

Dann Falk
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Re: Me-JAGUAR [?] aircraft

Post by Dann Falk » 19 Mar 2023 18:22

Paul_Atreides wrote:
18 Mar 2023 18:16
me-jaguar4.jpg

me-jaguar5.jpg

me-jaguar6.jpg

me-jaguar7.jpg
Wow Paul....you found the German JAGUAR (ЯГУАР) aircraft! Great Job.

Now I need to translate some sections. It might take me a day or two. I will post back here with my findings.

Once again, Great Job and Much Thanks
Dann

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Re: Me-JAGUAR [?] aircraft

Post by Paul_Atreides » 19 Mar 2023 19:53

I know about it since 2014 or so.
There is no waste, there are reserves (Slogan of German Army in World Wars)

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Re: Me-JAGUAR [?] aircraft

Post by MikeMeech » 20 Mar 2023 13:33

Dann Falk wrote:
06 Mar 2023 21:10
Greetings all.

I'm working on, translating, a Soviet Historical report from 1943.

Within the report about the 17 Air Army, it talks about 2 Me-JAGUAR (ЯГУАР) German aircraft. Any Idea what aircraft they were referring to?

Thanks for any help.

Dann
Hi
This aircraft identification, as a variant of the Me 110, appears in the early war period in a number of British publications for use by the general public. For example it is included in a montage of German bombers on page 82 of 'Britain's Wonderful Air Force' edited by Air Commodore P F M Fellowes, probably written during 1941. Also a photo appears on page 39 of 'German and Italian Aircraft, How to spot them', again probably written during 1941, image below:
Image_20230320_0002.jpg
It is also mentioned in 'Allied and Enemy Aircraft' edited by Eric Sargent on page 107, which relates to the Me 110, commenting that it was a variant of it, this is probably a 1942 publication.
I do not think it appears in later aircraft recognition material, at least not the ones I have. I am surprised it is appearing in later war Soviet material.

Mike

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Re: Me-JAGUAR [?] aircraft

Post by MikeMeech » 20 Mar 2023 13:36

Dann Falk wrote:
06 Mar 2023 21:10
Greetings all.

I'm working on, translating, a Soviet Historical report from 1943.

Within the report about the 17 Air Army, it talks about 2 Me-JAGUAR (ЯГУАР) German aircraft. Any Idea what aircraft they were referring to?

Thanks for any help.

Dann
Hi
This aircraft identification, as a variant of the Me 110, appears in the early war period in a number of British publications for use by the general public. For example it is included in a montage of German bombers on page 82 of 'Britain's Wonderful Air Force' edited by Air Commodore P F M Fellowes, probably written during 1941. Also a photo appears on page 39 of 'German and Italian Aircraft, How to spot them', again probably written during 1941, image below:
Image_20230320_0002.jpg
It is also mentioned in 'Allied and Enemy Aircraft' edited by Eric Sargent on page 107, which relates to the Me 110, commenting that it was a variant of it, this is probably a 1942 publication.
I do not think it appears in later aircraft recognition material, at least not the ones I have. I am surprised it is appearing in later war Soviet material.

Mike
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MikeMeech
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Re: Me-JAGUAR [?] aircraft

Post by MikeMeech » 20 Mar 2023 16:18

Hi
Looking further into the books I have, Volume 1 of 'Aircraft of the Fighting Powers' 1940 aircraft, by Cooper and Thetford, published about early 1942, has this to say on page 49 (Me 110):
"A specially modified bomber version, the Jaguar, was in service for a short time, but is no longer used. It had a transparent nose, radiators beneath the motors and modified cockpit hood."
There is also a drawing comparing the Me 110 with the Jaguar:
Image_20230320_0004.jpg
The revised 1943 edition of 'Aircraft Recognition' by R A Saville-Sneath has another photo of the Jaguar:
Image_20230320_0005.jpg
A revised 1944 British reprint of a book first published in the USA, 'War Planes of the Nations' by William Winter, has on page 310 in the Me 110 section a mention that:
"The Messerschmitt Jaguar, of which only a comparitively few were built, is a special bomber with a wide fuselage, internal bomb storage, and a glassed-in nose for an air-bomber."
Obviously as the war progressed this type was not being seen on the battle fronts.

Mike
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