Imperial Germany and the US go to war in 1912

[The Ibis]

Why not think really big and absurd! How about a Pan-European alliance to put the United States in its place. By the point of departure in the thread (much sooner really), the European governments knew the US was completely upending the old order. Maybe Emperor Billy gets all his friends and relatives to join in against the American affront to European hegemony! Indeed, all Billy is really doing is putting the Boxer Rebellion band back together, without Charlton Heston and Ava Gardner (David Niven, of course, could still star)

Can't you just see the artwork. Emperor Billy, resplendent in a shining pickelhaube and dress uniform, sitting atop a great white horse and wielding a grand sword (Kobashi reference!), leading the charge of all the great European powers against President Taft's greedy Americans!

[Asher S.]

Why not think really big and absurd! How about a Pan-European alliance to put the United States in its place. By the point of departure in the thread (much sooner really), the European governments knew the US was completely upending the old order. Maybe Emperor Billy gets all his friends and relatives to join in against the American affront to European hegemony! Indeed, all Billy is really doing is putting the Boxer Rebellion band back together, without Charlton Heston and Ava Gardner (David Niven, of course, could still star)

Can't you just see the artwork. Emperor Billy, resplendent in a shining pickelhaube and dress uniform, sitting atop a great white horse and wielding a grand sword (Kobashi reference!), leading the charge of all the great European powers against President Taft's greedy Americans!

I take it you don’t appreciate the thread premise, so you’re attempting — and failing miserably at if you are, I might add — to use reductio ad absurdum in an ironic tone to torpedo the discussion and make it seem ridiculous instead of just expressing yourself? Smh

Then again you might just be joking, in which case have fun.

[Geoffrey Cooke]

I’m trying to find information about the Tsingtao dry dock capabilities that were brought up.

[Geoffrey Cooke]

Why not think really big and absurd! How about a Pan-European alliance to put the United States in its place. By the point of departure in the thread (much sooner really), the European governments knew the US was completely upending the old order. Maybe Emperor Billy gets all his friends and relatives to join in against the American affront to European hegemony! Indeed, all Billy is really doing is putting the Boxer Rebellion band back together, without Charlton Heston and Ava Gardner (David Niven, of course, could still star)

Can't you just see the artwork. Emperor Billy, resplendent in a shining pickelhaube and dress uniform, sitting atop a great white horse and wielding a grand sword (Kobashi reference!), leading the charge of all the great European powers against President Taft's greedy Americans!

I have a feeling that you are being disingenuous instead of just humorous so I’ll address it as such. What’s absurd about a war between Germany and the US over colonies? Germany almost went to war with France over the sovereignty of the Moroccan Sultan and was placated the second time by major French territorial concessions to their Kamerun holding, the US went to war with Spain over trumped-up and unproven allegations about a U.S. vessel blowing up in Havanna harbor and seized Caribbean and Pacific possessions. A German and an American squadron had a stand off over the very question of Samoa that was forestalled by a natural disaster. One wouldn’t imagine that a political assassination would be a sufficient pretext for the Hapsburg Empire to give a 10 point demand designed to be rejected by Serbia and cause a war that would provoke Russian and German involvement, yet some bummed out assassin walking out of a Sarajevo sandwich shop proved otherwise.

I understand the argument that Germany was too worried about Britains involvement, even if I don’t necessarily agree with it, but nothing about it is “absurd” in the sense of no basis in reality.

I like alot of the threads you’ve started Ibis but please be clear on what your problems are before just jesting it away if you want me in turn to consider it.

[Carl Schwamberger]

the British Empire doesn’t need to join a war in order to punish Germany for it’s course of action in the form of embargos or ridiculously high tariffs.

A important point here. The embargo this includes German shipping companies losing access to the most efficient and competitive maritime insurance underwriting. Alternatives are difficult at this scale. Similarly German business loses can lose access to Londons banks. The US and British banking systems separately were the largest in the world and together owned global capitol markets. Germany has already shot it self in the foot with its war shutting off direct use of the big New York banks and their pools of US cash. London can double down on that with a banking embargo on German business accounts. Then there is making British flagged and British owned cargo shipping unavailable to German business. All that snowballs in effect and may make the Krupps, Farben investors, & others think twice about this route to Imperial Glory.

[The Ibis]

I didn't say anything about the OP being absurd. I said my idea and post was going to be absurd. And it was. Down to the 55 Days in Peking and Kenta Kobashi entrance music references.

Actually, I originally started out my post out by quoting one of Carl's where he mentioned having theorized a German-Spanish Alliance in connection with something he was working on, and then making a joke about being shackled to multiple corpses, and then talking about the extreme unlikelihood such an alliance could take place, but, even if it did come to pass, especially in the 1870s time frame, that such an alliance would create far too big a butterfly to try and look 30 years into the future, and then, saying that the creation of such an alliance would have made this OP more unlikely. But in the end, I deleted all that and just went with the above since What Ifs really aren't my thing.

[Geoffrey Cooke]

I didn't say anything about the OP being absurd. I said my idea and post was going to be absurd. And it was. Down to the 55 Days in Peking and Kenta Kobashi entrance music references.

If you must know, I originally started out my post out by quoting one of Carl's where he mentioned having theorized a German-Spanish Alliance in connection with something he was working on, and then making a joke about being shackled to multiple corpses, and then talking about the extreme unlikelihood such an alliance could take place, but, even if it did come to pass, especially in the 1870s time frame, that such an alliance would create far too big a butterfly to try and look 30 years into the future, and then, saying that the creation of such an alliance would have made this OP more unlikely. But in the end, I deleted all that and just went with the above since What Ifs really aren't my thing.

I see. In fairness to myself the context and which poster you were addressing seemed cryptic so I had to respond to it as if it were addressing me in a flippant way, for the sake of my rhetoric.

[Asher S.]

I didn't say anything about the OP being absurd. I said my idea and post was going to be absurd. And it was. Down to the 55 Days in Peking and Kenta Kobashi entrance music references.

Actually, I originally started out my post out by quoting one of Carl's where he mentioned having theorized a German-Spanish Alliance in connection with something he was working on, and then making a joke about being shackled to multiple corpses, and then talking about the extreme unlikelihood such an alliance could take place, but, even if it did come to pass, especially in the 1870s time frame, that such an alliance would create far too big a butterfly to try and look 30 years into the future, and then, saying that the creation of such an alliance would have made this OP more unlikely. But in the end, I deleted all that and just went with the above since What Ifs really aren't my thing.

In which case you succeeded spectacularly. It’s hard for me sometimes to see to what degree someone is being the more fun kind of flippant sarcasm or just using it as a vehicle for fallacies. As it happens that is valuable insight you’ve just added about what should be the cut off point for a fork in the timeline. By the way I got the 55 Days in Peking movie reference, it happens to be an old favorite of mine, even though it has the usual old movie awkwardness of casting white people with questionable make-up as Asians.

[Asher S.]

the British Empire doesn’t need to join a war in order to punish Germany for it’s course of action in the form of embargos or ridiculously high tariffs.

A important point here. The embargo this includes German shipping companies losing access to the most efficient and competitive maritime insurance underwriting. Alternatives are difficult at this scale. Similarly German business loses can lose access to Londons banks. The US and British banking systems separately were the largest in the world and together owned global capitol markets. Germany has already shot it self in the foot with its war shutting off direct use of the big New York banks and their pools of US cash. London can double down on that with a banking embargo on German business accounts. Then there is making British flagged and British owned cargo shipping unavailable to German business. All that snowballs in effect and may make the Krupps, Farben investors, & others think twice about this route to Imperial Glory.

Very true, and although the Kaiser and his aristocratic military cronies had more influence than usual for a western nation, Wilhelm appointing chancellors instead of voting by the parties and coalitions in parliament for example, it wasn’t like they were impervious to public opinion and business interests.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Yep, the German aristocracy had reached close to, if not on a razors edge in the 20th Century. Patriotic fervor kept public opinion in line into 1918, but the dam finally broke. A economic crash from a war over some distant colonial opportunities could further erode the Kaisers power. OTL there was a strong backlash against 'War Profiteers' after 1918 that ran on through the 1920s & 1930s. Something along that line might occur in the aftermath of a war with the US. & not just in Germany.

[nuyt]

Regarding coal bunkering.
If I recall correctly, the Russian fleet on its ill fated way to Japan bunkered in the Dutch East Indies, most likely on Sabang Island, an important neutral/international coal station. The HSF could have done similar before heading into the South China Sea and also may quite possibly have struck a deal with the Dutch to use repair facilities on Java.
During WW1 it turned out that a string of then ultramodern Telefunken radio stations built throughout the Dutch Indies in fact worked covertly for the German Imperial Navy, assisting raiders among others things. The Germans were preparing for anything. Stocking up coal in the Dutch East Indies would have been relatively easy.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Im working from memory here, but recall the book 'Voyage of the Dammed' referred to some 25 coaling operations at sea during the 5+ months of the voyage. The Russian Navy is supposed to have contracted half a million tons of coal, which came principally from German companies. Most nations enforced neutrality rules and refused coaling operations in their harbors along the route. The French allowed coaling and a general service stop in Cam Rahn Bay, as they were building a anti German alliance with Russia, and had not a large connection to Japan.

A quick check shows Graf Spees cruiser squadron topped off its coal bunkers when departing China, topped them off tagain at a couple different islands in the Pacific and the admiral was searching for a coal source when he arrived at the Falklands. Where the Eden topped off before entering the Indian Ocean I did not check on.

[T. A. Gardner]

With respect to the OP, I think that other ships and ships under construction need looking at as well as what each fleet had in capital ships.

For example, the USN has the "Big 10 cruisers" available. These are large and very powerful armored cruisers. Germany by comparison has just two similar but somewhat weaker, ships available (Scharnhorst and Gnesienau).

Germany has 8 older armored cruisers versus 2 for the US.

Depending on the month the war starts, the US has two battleships, New York and Texas about to be launched for fitting out. Arkansas and Wyoming are both near completion and commission and likely would become quickly available once the war started. Their delay into service would mostly be working up the crew and doing trials on the ships.

The Kaiser and Goeben aren't going to be ready at the beginning of this war as both are still fitting out almost into 1913.

At the same time, the US already has a major port and naval base at Manila Bay, which is also one of the most heavily, if not heavily defended ports in Asia at the time.

[Asher S.]

Were the Tennessee class and Pennsylvania class designs qualitatively stronger than S&G? Doubtful. SMS Fürst Bismarck although lacking in speed had competitive armament and armor with the Tennessees. Then there is SMS Blücher, the most powerful armored cruiser afloat at the time.

Although the US has the advantage in armored cruisers numbers (12 to 9) in the event of a decisive fleet engagement their use is limited thanks to the existence of I. Scouting Group — which would include the battlecruisers and Blücher if the Germans repeat their WWI deployment. The armored cruisers will be stuck hugging the main US battle line, unless they want to repeat what happened to Admiral Arbuthnot, or von Spee for that matter.

[T. A. Gardner]

Were the Tennessee class and Pennsylvania class designs qualitatively stronger than S&G? Doubtful. SMS Fürst Bismarck although lacking in speed had competitive armament and armor with the Tennessees. Then there is SMS Blücher, the most powerful armored cruiser afloat at the time.

Although the US has the advantage in armored cruisers numbers (12 to 9) in the event of a decisive fleet engagement their use is limited thanks to the existence of I. Scouting Group — which would include the battlecruisers and Blücher if the Germans repeat their WWI deployment. The armored cruisers will be stuck hugging the main US battle line, unless they want to repeat what happened to Admiral Arbuthnot, or von Spee for that matter.

With equal crews, the US ships were better, and there's 10 of them versus 2. The older German and US armored cruisers are markedly inferior.

Tennessee class: 4 x 10"/40 guns in twin turret mounts, 16 x 6"/50 guns in casemates. The later are very powerful for their size. Belt 1.5 - 5" Deck 1.5 to 4" Turrets 2.5 to 9" That's the last 5 built.

Scharnhorst / Gneisenau 8 x 8.3"/40 guns 4 in twin turrets, four in casemates, 6 x 5.9"/40 guns all in casemates. Belt 3 to 6" Decks 1.4 to 2.5" Turrets 6.7" max

I would doubt that such a war would see a Jutland-style battle, but rather more like the German Pacific Squadron or Goeben saw, where smaller units of both fleets meet at sea, particularly in the Pacific.