The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Mar 2023 05:34

Hi ColCalgary,

What "event"? You are still offering absolutely nothing.

Sid.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 19 Mar 2023 23:51

wm wrote:
17 Mar 2023 15:11
I don't quite understand why a (probably totally inept) mission is held against the Mufti - if he wasn't a British citizen or even a citizen of any Allied nation.

When at the same time, the Jewish underground in Palestine (full of deserters from the Polish Army to boot) fought militarily against the British - setting bombs, and killing soldiers and politicians. And the people who did it get hero treatment today.
I am reading The Quest for the Red Prince,written by Bar -Zohar,apparently the personal biographer of Ben-Gurion.
On pg 55 it is stated that in 44 Husayni declared to his assistants "We shall poison the wells of Tel Aviv."
:Strangely enough,because of a unique set of circumstances this insane scheme was to be approved by the German High Command."
No sources are cited.
An old Trinidadian proverb.
"It may be a lie but there could be some truth in it."
The Red Prince was Ali Hassan Salameh,Palestinian born mastermind of the Munich games massacre.
The author claims that his father,Hassan Salameh,was involved in a Para mission on Nov 5,1944,five men,three of them Palestinian born Brandenburgers in a Heinkel he 111,were dropped over Jericho,with poison.
Wadi Kelt(Qelt) is cited as the place where this was discovered,near some monasteries.I believe this is the Wadi that goes to Jerusalem.
Where on earth would this Heinkel be able to get fuel for this trip in Nov 1944?

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wm
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by wm » 20 Mar 2023 03:32

Although in "The Quest for the Red Prince," no sources can be found at all.
It's not a historical work; it's nationalistic propaganda.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 20 Mar 2023 03:39

wm wrote:
20 Mar 2023 03:32
Although in "The Quest for the Red Prince," no sources can be found at all.
It's not a historical work; it's nationalistic propaganda.
Yes I would agree with that.But there are small snippets of the truth in there.
I can see no possible way for that aircraft to make that journey at that time.
In 1941,yes.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 21 Mar 2023 02:52

Same book claims that Husayni hid in the Japanese embassy in Tehran when the British took the city.
Then by horse drawn carriage through Turkey with an Italian diplomatic passport alongside two secret service agents.(OVRA).
Then to the Italian embassy in Turkey.
Oct 11 1941 he boards a light aircraft of the Italian Air Force,specially dispatched to fly him to a military airport south of Rome.
Mussolini made available the luxurious Villa Colonna in Rome.Full staff of servants and guards,an official car and motorcycle police escorts.Apparently a number of his followers joined him in Rome,and were also given the treatment.
On Oct 27 he meets Il Duce at the Palazzo Venizia.Mussolini agreed to help in any way he could to further the Mufti's goals.
Meets Hitler Nov 28.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by michael mills » 25 Mar 2023 03:44

So what if Mussolini gave assistance to Al-Husayni in the latter's struggle against the British rulers of Palestine?

That does not mean that Al-Husayni had a role in the Holocaust. Mussolini himself did not have a role in the Holocaust, even though he was Hitler's main ally, and so long as he was in power he did not allow any killing of Jews in any of the regions under Italian control.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 25 Mar 2023 12:17

Hi Michael Mills,

I am of the same opinion that no evidence has come up that the Mufti had any role in the so-called "Holocaust".

However, I don't think he ever had any control over Italian occupation policy either and so can't take any credit for preserving Jews there either.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 25 Mar 2023 14:40

michael mills wrote:
25 Mar 2023 03:44
So what if Mussolini gave assistance to Al-Husayni in the latter's struggle against the British rulers of Palestine?

That does not mean that Al-Husayni had a role in the Holocaust. Mussolini himself did not have a role in the Holocaust, even though he was Hitler's main ally, and so long as he was in power he did not allow any killing of Jews in any of the regions under Italian control.
In that Behind the Battle Lines pdf,I believe if you register with Academia that you can access this content.
Mussolini was a Jekyll and Hyde type of character.
Do you feel that there might be a reason the Italians went to so much trouble to ensure that Husayni did not fall into the hands of the Allies?
Libya

"Morever,all Jews were to expelled or interned.More than 2,500 Jews of French and British nationality were deported to Vichy-France-controlled Tunisia or to mainland Italy.74 but as a newly unearthed document indicates,the 30,000 Jews who were Italian subjects were to be incarcerated in Libya itself.75 The document in question is a secret letter dated February 7,1942 from the long-serving Minister for Colonial Affairs Attilio Terruzzi,to Ugo Cavallero,chief of the Italian Comando Supremo(High Command).As Terruzzi explained,"on orders from the highest level"I have arranged for the evacuation of all Jews living in Cyrenaica to a concentration camp situated in the Tripolitanian rear areas.In a second step,the position of the Tripolitanian Jews themselves shall be reconsidered as well.The above -mentioned interned Jews may also be deported to Italy".(emphasis in the original).76

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wm
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by wm » 25 Mar 2023 21:53

Although during ww1 and ww2 (but not only), deportation or internment of people deemed unreliable was basically the norm, everybody was doing it - from Poland to the US.
Not to mention the masters of deportations - the Soviets.
That Mussolini interned some folks didn't make him a monster. In a world gripped by (real and frequently deadly, especially in Eastern Europe) spy paranoia, he wasn't the first or the last.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 26 Mar 2023 14:06

That incident in the Behind the Battle Lines pdf,the hmg being set up at Giado.The numbers at this camp have not been accounted for.IIRC,only the very young and the elderly were liberated.

Among the Righteous pg 55.
"Tunis was rife with rumors,for example,that Djebel Djeloud,a hill outside the capital city,was the site where the Germans secretly started to build a crematorium.German archives make no reference to this,but given the few SS files files for Tunisia that have ever been found,this is no surprise.86
This site is on high exposed ground surrounded by valleys.What would lead the local population to believe that something nefarious was going on?Perhaps firewood being trucked in?

The author mentions a further debate on Djebel Djeloud ,see Laskier,North African Jewry in the Twentieth Century,pp. 75-76.Will see if my library carries this.
There is a further ref to a time frame I am trying to locate in Among the Righteous.Three days of smoke.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 26 Mar 2023 14:13

Getting back to the Mufti,if there was in fact a mission to poison the water in Palestine,and Jerusalem was the location,undoubtedly there would have been some cooperation for paras to enter the city and conceal themselves.A mosque is the only reasonable location that makes sense.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by wm » 27 Mar 2023 22:47

I suppose it's easy to poison water in a Bollywood movie, but in real life, the dilution equation alone ensures the impossibility of poisoning for long a well - there is simply too much water in it.
In the case of a river or water supply, it's just straight forget it.

It would an entirely different story if a biological agent was used.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 27 Mar 2023 22:58

wm wrote:
27 Mar 2023 22:47
I suppose it's easy to poison water in a Bollywood movie, but in real life, the dilution equation alone ensures the impossibility of poisoning for long a well - there is simply too much water in it.
In the case of a river or water supply, it's just straight forget it.

It would an entirely different story if a biological agent was used.
We don't know what the agent was.
The wealthier Jewish quarter had private water lines.
The Arabs had an open air reservoir.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by LAstryAGAIN » 29 Mar 2023 04:27

Ali Hassan Salameh married the granddaugther of the Mufti Al-Husayni

Mussolini was involved in the Shoah,,,
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=270061

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by michael mills » 30 Mar 2023 05:23

Let's put this brouhaha about the four parachutists who tried to poison the water to bed once and for all.

There were four parachutists dropped in an isolated region of British-ruled Palestine. They were exiles from Palestine and Iraq, people who had previously been involved in anti-British activities before and during the war, and had the ostensible mission of fomenting a general uprising of the Arab population of Palestine and thereby cause a diversion of British troops to the area.

The parachutists were almost immediately captured by the Transjordan Frontier Force, an Arab unit that like the Arab Legion operated under British command. The fact is that the Arab population of Palestine remained very quiescent during the war, and there was no local support for the four parachutists, which is probably why they were so quickly captured.

The whole concept of parachuting agents into Palestine to foment an uprising was almost certainly the brainchild of the German military, and Al-Husayni's involvement in it would have been very limited, perhaps just suggesting who should be selected as agents. Throughout the war he was essentially a servant of the German Government, following its orders rather than exercising any sort of major influence. Even his main role in propagandising among Bosnian Muslims for recruitment to the Waffen SS Handjar Division was something that he was asked to do by the German Government; the idea for form ing that unit had come from the Bosnian Muslim community leaders themselves, not from Al-Husayni.

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