Churchill wins 1945 election: no 1948 State of Israel

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Von Schadewald
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Churchill wins 1945 election: no 1948 State of Israel

Post by Von Schadewald » 12 Apr 2023 19:44

Churchill was an admirer of Jews and a bit of a Zionist.

However he took the 1944 Lehi assassination of his friend Anglo-Irishman Walter Edward Guiness (Lord Moyne) very badly, and became less sympathetic to the Zionist cause.

WI Churchill wins the 1945 election and decides to hold on to the Palestine Mandate no matter what?

Eventually there would be a Jewish State, but delayed by 2-5 years from OTL, with many more casualties on both sides.
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wm
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Re: Churchill wins 1945 election: no 1948 State of Israel

Post by wm » 12 Apr 2023 20:37

World Jewry was a serious political force - not to be toyed with like that.
Especially since the US was in control. If the US said yes, then the British were expected to like it.

Von Schadewald
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Re: Churchill wins 1945 election: no 1948 State of Israel

Post by Von Schadewald » 12 Apr 2023 21:11

As can be heard from 9.05-16.10 in this audio clip it can be seen how to this day in Israel they have no regrets about assassinating Lord Moyne
https://soundcloud.com/israel-news-talk ... i-ffEwPBzI

CogCalgary
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Re: Churchill wins 1945 election: no 1948 State of Israel

Post by CogCalgary » 13 Apr 2023 04:17

There would still be a Jewish state.
Churchill was certainly a very bright individual.
Ben Gurion always had two horses in a race.

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wm
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Re: Churchill wins 1945 election: no 1948 State of Israel

Post by wm » 13 Apr 2023 22:03

Von Schadewald wrote:
12 Apr 2023 21:11
As can be heard from 9.05-16.10 in this audio clip it can be seen how to this day in Israel they have no regrets about assassinating Lord Moyne
https://soundcloud.com/israel-news-talk ... i-ffEwPBzI

All is fair in love and war.
In 1948, they assassinated Folke Bernadotte - the man who "negotiated the release of about 31,000 prisoners from German concentration camps, including 450 Danish Jews from the Theresienstadt camp."

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Re: Churchill wins 1945 election: no 1948 State of Israel

Post by LAstryAGAIN » 14 Apr 2023 15:50

Israel would have been proclaimed no matter who was the prime Minister.....strickly speaking although they occupied palestine/Israel they were supposed to hold it in trusteeship....not become part of their empire....
As for Churchill..although he could a realist....conceding that Souther Ireland/Irish Free state would become independent....He had grown up too much under the British Empire....he would have tried to hold on to British India,,,and Burma.....aswell....ironically the British empire would still exit today if instead of making it a Imperial Empire and trying to hold on to Afghanistan...to check the Czar.....!!!! If had been a Empire of self governing traiding Commonwealth.....now even the Commonwealth....is slowly dissolving

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Re: Churchill wins 1945 election: no 1948 State of Israel

Post by Princess Perfume » 17 Apr 2023 07:32

If the Tories in the Lords hadn't blocked the Home Rule bill in 1883, Ireland would still be a part of the UK today.

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Cantankerous
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Re: Churchill wins 1945 election: no 1948 State of Israel

Post by Cantankerous » 28 Dec 2023 03:46

Winston Churchill was always in favor of letting Jewish refugees from Nazism come to Palestine. He told the British colonial office in Palestine that the government had "to be guided by sentiments of humanity towards those fleeing from the cruellest forms of persecution".

Link:
https://www2.gvsu.edu/walll/churchill%2 ... ocaust.htm

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Re: Churchill wins 1945 election: no 1948 State of Israel

Post by Kurt_S » 30 Dec 2023 06:49

wm wrote:
12 Apr 2023 20:37
World Jewry was a serious political force - not to be toyed with like that.
Especially since the US was in control. If the US said yes, then the British were expected to like it.
How are comments like this - "World Jewry" - tolerated on this forum? I hope you're a non-native English speaker using a term whose connotations you don't fully understand.

I'd recommend reading a book or two on the history of Zionism. American Jews - those who supposedly were in control - were at best ambivalent about the Zionist project. American Zionism is predominantly a non-Jewish, right-wing Christian phenomenon usually expounded most vehemently by America's most vehement antisemites.

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Terry Duncan
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Re: Churchill wins 1945 election: no 1948 State of Israel

Post by Terry Duncan » 30 Dec 2023 14:55

Kurt_S wrote:
30 Dec 2023 06:49
wm wrote:
12 Apr 2023 20:37
World Jewry was a serious political force - not to be toyed with like that.
Especially since the US was in control. If the US said yes, then the British were expected to like it.
How are comments like this - "World Jewry" - tolerated on this forum? I hope you're a non-native English speaker using a term whose connotations you don't fully understand.

I'd recommend reading a book or two on the history of Zionism. American Jews - those who supposedly were in control - were at best ambivalent about the Zionist project. American Zionism is predominantly a non-Jewish, right-wing Christian phenomenon usually expounded most vehemently by America's most vehement antisemites.
The term was widely used in the first half of the 20thC, both as a pejorative as well as a reference to the influence of certain powerful blocs in banking when talking about themselves. In this case, WM did not use the term pejoratively, but as a term people with an interest in this subject would understand. WM is also not a native English speaker. In this case the term cannot simply be used as a substitute for Zionism, and as long as it is used correctly it is suitable. If you can offer an alternative phrase that can be quickly understood to mean the same thing I am happy to suggest people use that in future, but I cannot think of one myself at present.

Terry

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wm
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Re: Churchill wins 1945 election: no 1948 State of Israel

Post by wm » 10 Jan 2024 01:31

World Jewry is used (quite frequently) even today. Admittedly, it slightly ridiculous and absurd and that makes it perfectly Jewish.
And I wrote that the US was in control, not the Jews.
The story is Truman believed he needed Jewish votes, so he supported the Jewish state (but others, among them George F. Kennan and George Marshall, didn't).

It wasn't that cool to be a Jew in the forties. For example, the Polish ambassador in Washington during WW2 (a friend of the powerful justice Felix Frankfurter) and his wife (the wealthiest woman in Belgium) were Jews, and they say they both were ashamed they were Jews.
Why, I can't quite fathom, but it was like that.

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