SS-Pionier-Bataillon 12 "Hitlerjugend"

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andernach
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SS-Pionier-Bataillon 12 "Hitlerjugend"

#1

Post by andernach » 11 Jan 2023, 10:56

Hello,

According to the DRK's missing person picture lists, the SS-Pionier-Bataillon 12 "Hitlerjugend" had the field post number 58497, the individual units:
- Staff Company 58497A
- 1st Company 58497B
- 2nd Company 58497C
- 3rd Company 58497D
- Bridge column 58497E
- Engineer Light Column 58497F

However, the 4th company led by Herbert Bischoff is not included in these field post numbers or this structure.
During operations in the Ardennes and Hungary, this company was also referred to as the 4th heavy company and was still commanded by Hauptsturmfuhrer Bischoff. According to the former commander Taubert, the 4th company had a strength of 2/14/110//126 for use in the Ardennes and 2/10/95//107 for use in Hungary.
Neither in the pioneer chronicle of the 12th SS Panzer Division nor in the missing person picture lists could I find any information on the field post number or on open fates of missing persons.
Can someone from the forum provide information on this?
Does anyone have field post letters from members of the 4th company that could identify the field post number?

Thank you for your support and best regards,
andernach

andernach
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Re: SS-Pionier-Bataillon 12 "Hitlerjugend"

#2

Post by andernach » 13 Jan 2023, 23:22

One further amendment:
Even if overviews of the field post numbers are available, they are not always consistent. I assume that although there was a fixed number assignment, this was not always implemented accordingly.

For example, the SS-FlakAbt 12 had the field post number 59572 with the letters A to F.
- Staff battery 59572A
- 1st Company 59572B
- 2nd Company 59572C
- 3rd Company 59572D
- 4th Company 59572E
- Column 59572F
However, there never was a column (actually a light anti-aircraft column). The vehicles were distributed to the individual batteries and their "Trosse".
The field post number 59572F was then verifiably assigned to the 5th battery, which was set up in October 1944.
And I have never seen an overview of the field post numbers with that fact.

I'm looking for a clue or proof from the Pioneer Battalion. I assume that the field post numbers were intended as stated
-Staff Company 58497A
- 1st Company 58497B
- 2nd Company 58497C
- 3rd Company 58497D
- Bridge column 58497E
- Engineer Light Column 58497F

In a battalion order dated May 7, 1944, the SS Pioneer Battalion 12 lists the following units:

- Staff Company
- 1st (Armored) Company
- 2nd Company
- 3rd Company
- 4th (heavy) company
- Bridge column B
- Bridge column K

This speaks for a separate structure that is not congruent with that which was intended when the field post numbers were assigned.

In the case of the SS Engineer Battalion 12, this would mean that discrepancies may have arisen in the DRK (German Red Cross) lists of missing person pictures.

Here a field post letter with the field post number from a member of the 4th company would be a nice document to clear the riddle.
Or any other document showing the field post numbers of the structure chosen in practice by the division for the battalion.

Regards,
andernach


next_generation
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Re: SS-Pionier-Bataillon 12 "Hitlerjugend"

#3

Post by next_generation » 03 May 2023, 18:37

The thread is some month old and I don't know if it helps.

My dad was taken prisoner of war on june 26th close to Norrey-en-Bessin during operation Epsom. Originally his superior was Obltn Otto Toll. So originally he was member of the Pioneer Battalions 1st Company. He told me, he saw Obltn Otto Toll dying after the futile attack of the Pionners towards Le-Mesnil on June 10th. According to my dad the companies were regrouped after that attack, and his new Superior became Paul Kuret of 2nd Company. Eventually he surrendered together with Paul Kuret arround 13:00 on June 26th.

Nevertheless the first card send as prisoner and received by my Grandparents has field post number F.P.N 58 497 B which would correspond to 1st Company of the Pioneer Batallion.
20230503_180336.jpg

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stoveb
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Re: SS-Pionier-Bataillon 12 "Hitlerjugend"

#4

Post by stoveb » 04 May 2023, 12:02

Hi there,

I am researching the 9th Pz Pi Kp/SS Pz Rgt 1 which was formerly the 3rd Kp/SS Pi Btl 1 LSSAH until December 1942/January 1943.

In the expansion of mid 1942 the LSSAH Pi Btl went from 3 to 4 Kp (the 4th was a schwer Kp). The various charts from this period (of the Soll organisation) still list 1-4 Kp in the Btl, but in reality, apart from August to Dec 1942, there were only ever three.

I would suspect that the 12th SS Pi Btl had the same problem, although on paper it was meant to have 4 Kp in the Btl, in reality it only ever had three. The demand on replacements and materiel at this time in 1944 would also make the possibility of four Kps highly unlikely.

In the other post, Paul Kuret was a member of the original Pi Zug of the LAH in 1937, and he later joined the 12th SS.

Thanks
Steve

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Re: SS-Pionier-Bataillon 12 "Hitlerjugend"

#5

Post by next_generation » 04 May 2023, 13:06

From the book "The 12th SS" by Huberth Meyer I have this map, showing the situation on june 26th 1944.
IMG_3808_.jpg
It shows the positions of 2/Pi , Pi/Erk.Zg, 3/Pi and 4/Pi to the west of St Manvieu and the Pi.12 command post to the south of the Caen - Fontenay Road. There doesn't seem to be a 1/Pi which corresponds to the account of my dad, that 1/Pi was dissolved after the casualties of June 10th and the death of Otto Toll.

It's a hint that assignments of soldiers to companies were fluent and Field Post Numbers were not necessarily updated to the actual situation.

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SS-Pionier-Bataillon 1

#6

Post by EugE » 04 May 2023, 16:36

stoveb wrote:
04 May 2023, 12:02
Hi there,

I am researching the 9th Pz Pi Kp/SS Pz Rgt 1 which was formerly the 3rd Kp/SS Pi Btl 1 LSSAH until December 1942/January 1943.

In the expansion of mid 1942 the LSSAH Pi Btl went from 3 to 4 Kp (the 4th was a schwer Kp). The various charts from this period (of the Soll organisation) still list 1-4 Kp in the Btl, but in reality, apart from August to Dec 1942, there were only ever three.

I would suspect that the 12th SS Pi Btl had the same problem, although on paper it was meant to have 4 Kp in the Btl, in reality it only ever had three. The demand on replacements and materiel at this time in 1944 would also make the possibility of four Kps highly unlikely.

In the other post, Paul Kuret was a member of the original Pi Zug of the LAH in 1937, and he later joined the 12th SS.

Thanks
Steve
Hi!
Do you mean Gliederung from August 18 1942?

I was surprised that I have found LAH Gliederung in 7th Army September 14th.
Look for it and you will find it...

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Re: SS-Pionier-Bataillon 12 "Hitlerjugend"

#7

Post by Michael Kenny » 04 May 2023, 18:52

next_generation wrote:
03 May 2023, 18:37
The thread is some month old and I don't know if it helps.

My dad was taken prisoner of war on june 26th close to Norrey-en-Bessin during operation Epsom. Originally his superior was Obltn Otto Toll. So originally he was member of the Pioneer Battalions 1st Company. He told me, he saw Obltn Otto Toll dying after the futile attack of the Pionners towards Le-Mesnil on June 10th. According to my dad the companies were regrouped after that attack, and his new Superior became Paul Kuret of 2nd Company. Eventually he surrendered together with Paul Kuret arround 13:00 on June 26th.

Nevertheless the first card send as prisoner and received by my Grandparents has field post number F.P.N 58 497 B which would correspond to 1st Company of the Pioneer Batallion.

St Manvieu 26-6-44

https://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/4743

Norrey en Bessin 27-6-44

https://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/1870

air view June 7 click for the larger view
P-0050 Norrey en Bessin Le Mesnil Patry  US7-1775 June 7th.jpg

next_generation
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Re: SS-Pionier-Bataillon 12 "Hitlerjugend"

#8

Post by next_generation » 04 May 2023, 22:00

One of my fathers memories of the June 10th attack towards Norray/Le Mesnil was, that they were assaulting towards a row of poplars into heavy MG fire. That might well be the tree rows in the upper part of the aerial.

andernach
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Re: SS-Pionier-Bataillon 12 "Hitlerjugend"

#9

Post by andernach » 05 May 2023, 19:18

Hello and thanks for the further comments.
After evaluating original documents for the SS-PiBtl 12, there is no doubt that there was a 4th (heavy) company. Until January 1944, the grenade launcher platoon and the sMG platoon were managed by the staff company. Then the 4th (s) company was set up under Obersturmfuhrer Herbert Bischoff.
After the heavy losses of June 10, 1944, the 1st company was not dissolved. It was withdrawn and initially served as a reserve at the disposal of the division. Together with the DivBeglKp, the remnants of the 1st company moved to VERSON (see 12th SS-PzDiv, 12. SS-PzDiv, Befehl für die Verteidigung vom 12.06.1944, Abt Ia, 744/44).
According to information provided by former battalion members, the companies were reinforced by personnel of the "Trosse" and personnel from BrüKol "B" and BrüKol "K". The two bridge columns were not used on the invasion front and so these personnel were used, too.

Regards,
andernach

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Re: SS-Pionier-Bataillon 12 "Hitlerjugend"

#10

Post by Piet Duits » 08 May 2023, 16:13

Hi,

From what I know the 4. (schw.) Kompanie was not an officially authorized unit ("auf den Kommandowege"), and was not reported in the montly status reports either. It was made up by pulling the GrW. and sMG troops out of the regular Pi.Kp., and I wouldn't be surprised if they had the Flammenwerfer-Zug from the armored Pi.Kp. too.

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Re: SS-Pionier-Bataillon 12 "Hitlerjugend"

#11

Post by andernach » 14 May 2023, 10:46

Hello Piet,

you are right, the formation of the company was not official, but it was retained as a heavy company until the end of the war.
I have not been able to find any information in any documents that the flamethrower platoon could also have been in the 4th company.
The company consisted of:
- Kompanie-Trupp
- I.Zug (s.MG)
- II.Zug (m.Gr.W.)
- Gefechts- u. Gepäcktross
Gesamtstärke: 2/27/100//129

In the meantime I have received information that proves the following use of the field post numbers:
58497A StabsKp
58497B 1.Kp
58497C 2.Kp
58497D 3.Kp
58497E Brückenkolonne (BrüKol „B“ und BrüKol „K“ zusammen)
58497F 4. Kp

regards,
andernach

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Re: SS-Pionier-Bataillon 12 "Hitlerjugend"

#12

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 16 May 2023, 21:02

andernach wrote:
14 May 2023, 10:46
Hello Piet,


I have not been able to find any information in any documents that the flamethrower platoon could also have been in the 4th company.
Was the Flamethrower Platoon with their SdKfz 251/16 not part of SS PanzerGrenadier Regiment 26 ?
Alan

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Re: SS-Pionier-Bataillon 12 "Hitlerjugend"

#13

Post by Sheldrake » 17 May 2023, 12:02

next_generation wrote:
04 May 2023, 13:06
From the book "The 12th SS" by Huberth Meyer I have this map, showing the situation on june 26th 1944.
IMG_3808_.jpg

It shows the positions of 2/Pi , Pi/Erk.Zg, 3/Pi and 4/Pi to the west of St Manvieu and the Pi.12 command post to the south of the Caen - Fontenay Road. There doesn't seem to be a 1/Pi which corresponds to the account of my dad, that 1/Pi was dissolved after the casualties of June 10th and the death of Otto Toll.

It's a hint that assignments of soldiers to companies were fluent and Field Post Numbers were not necessarily updated to the actual situation.
I have been puzzling about the exact location of a battle during Op Epsom between elements of 12th SS Pi Bn and 25 Field Regiment RA. Gunners in Normandy includes an extract from the history of 25 Field Regiment.
25th Field Regiment at ‘Sniper’s Corner’ The British infantry assault had over run many German positions suppressed by the barrage or tank fire. Not all of these had been mopped up by the infantry following the attack. The 25th Field Regiment was ordered to deploy as far forward as possible to be able to support the 31st Armoured Brigade throughout all phases of the operation. Infantry progress had been slowed by a deep minefield, but reconnaissance of a gun position beyond this minefield and about a mile south of Le Mesnil-Patry from the village had been completed. The only cover available was a small triangular wood, a small orchard and the double banks with their high hedges, which are a feature of Normandy. The 31st Battery were in rear in an open cornfield and the orchard, the 12th/25th Battery in the centre near the triangular wood and the 58th Battery forward; RHQ was on the other side of the only track running through the area. The guns, which had been held up by several traffic blocks, particularly at the entrance to the gap through the minefield, started arriving on the position at about 1400 hrs and, with the exception of A Troop, whose position was near the wood, were got into action without any difficulty. A Troop, however, met trouble almost immediately its leading gun entered the field in which the troop had been sited. Rifle fire was suddenly opened on the troop and the GPOA, Lance Bombardier Hobson, who was at the director not far from the edge of the wood, was seen to fall. Efforts to reach him brought more fire from the wood, as did any further movement of men or vehicles. Gun detachments, therefore, dismounted from their quads and crawled away under cover of the hedge along which the guns were now halted. The CPO, Lieutenant K.J.H. Astles, decided that A Troop could not be brought into action until the wood had been cleared. He immediately formed two small patrols from Battery HQ, each of two men, with himself in charge of one and the ACPO, Lieutenant F.R. Gutt, in charge of the other. These two parties entered the wood from different sides to clear what was thought to be three or four snipers. They had hardly entered before heavy rifle and automatic fire was opened, and nothing more was seen or heard of them until Gunner Erskine re-turned and reported that both officers and Gunners Phillips and Ventress had been killed and Gunner Jones seriously wounded. He had tried to reach Gunner Jones, but had not been able to do so, nor was he able to say how many snipers were in the wood. Thus, of the men who entered the wood, only Gunner Erskine returned. Sergeant Duke, the NCO in charge of signals, had been supervising the laying of lines that ran through the wood and appeared shortly after Gunner Erskine. He had been pinned down by fire and unable to reach the men whom he had seen shot. He later brought in Lance Bombardier Hobson under fire.

The mopping up of the wood was going to be more difficult than was at first thought. While a different position was being prepared for A Troop assistance, in the form of a section section of infantry, attempted to enter the wood but was forced to withdraw by heavy fire. Fortunately, it sustained no casualties. In the meantime, the second-in-command, Major A.F. Johnson, had enlisted the help of a troop of Shermans. A troop of Honeys (M3 Stuart Light Tanks), hearing the noise, also arrived. Two of the Shermans, the Honeys and the battery’s Bren guns were sited to plaster the wood, while the third Sherman was to cover a party of gunners, under the Command of Sergeant Duke, who were to enter and clean up the wood. Gunner Erskine, also in the party, had made another expedition into the wood with two signallers and had succeeded in locating the area from which most of the fire came.

After a short, intense bombardment by the tanks, the gunners entered the wood and very soon afterwards a white flag was hoisted by the enemy. To everyone’s astonishment, forty-three prisoners were rounded up, six of whom, including one officer, were wounded. They also came upon some dead Germans. While the 12th/25th Battery had been fighting this engagement, the other two batteries and RHQ had also been in contact with the enemy, although on a smaller scale. Lance Bombardier McGinn, D Troop’s GPOA, looking up from his director, saw two Germans watching him from a slit trench about 20 yards away. Although unarmed, he coolly walked over and ordered them to surrender, which they did. Then, with two other men, he advanced on another slit trench containing five SS men armed with a Spandau, rifles and many hand grenades. These also put their hands up, except for one man, wearing an Iron Cross, who threw a grenade but fortunately without effect. It was discovered after the 31st Battery’s guns were in action that C Troop had been sited on the edge of the minefield, and later about twenty Teller mines and ‘S’ mines were lifted. That there were no casualties is explained by the fact that, presumably inadvertently, the Germans had placed all the detonators in them upside down. In the the 58th Battery area, which was full of slit trenches and dugouts containing a large amount of abandoned equipment, two Germans were killed by E Troop. One had been sniping and was shot in a tree, the other had been playing dead in the hedge two yards from No. 1 gun. He was only discovered when one of the detachment was looking for his haversack and he was then shot while trying to escape. Although the battery had been troubled by sniping ever since they started coming into action, they fortunately lost only one man, Gunner Thompson. The tanks that harboured in the battery area that night took no chances, however, and systematically sprayed every ditch, tree and hedge with their Besas. They accounted for four more Germans. Even RHQ took its prisoners that day. Lieutenant G.J. Burgess, signals officer, while siting the signal office, stepped on a German in a ditch. This man immediately burst into tears. Six other prisoners were rounded up in the area by the RSM and a small party. Although the time seemed to go very quickly, mopping up was not really finished until nearly 1900 hrs. When the whole regimental area had been searched, it was plain that it had been an enemy reserve company locality, which had been overrun but not mopped up. In the action, 25th Regiment lost two officers and four other ranks killed and three wounded, but took somewhere between forty-eight (war diary) and fifty-seven (regimental history) prisoners. Sergeant Duke was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal (DCM) and Lance Bombardier McGinn and Gunner Erskine were awarded the MM.15 Although the scene of these episodes was known as the ‘car park’, to the regiment it became known as ‘Snipers’ Corner’. From History of 25 Field Regiment.
Baldwin, Major Frank; Townend, Lieutenant Colonel Will. Gunners in Normandy (pp. 326-329). The History Press. Kindle Edition.

For me as a Gunner this is a great inspirational story. It could have formed the basis for battery and regimental test exercises post war. After the 1947 restructuring, 25 Field Regiment became 29 Commando Field Regiment with 12, 31 and 58 batteries becoming 8, 79 and 145 commando batteries.

The Germans would appear to have been at least a platoon or remains of a company. Anyone help to identify the subunit?

One problem has been to identify the location of the "Triangular Wood". I cannoit find a wood in the area on the GSG maps. However, whatever was reported as a triangular wood ought to be visible in the photos Michael Kenny posted in #7. Can anyone help?

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Re: SS-Pionier-Bataillon 12 "Hitlerjugend"

#14

Post by Michael Kenny » 17 May 2023, 16:20

A Mile south of Mesnil Patry is the road from Fontenay to St Manvieu. This is the only 'woods' in that area.


June 24th 1944

4103 b.jpg

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Re: SS-Pionier-Bataillon 12 "Hitlerjugend"

#15

Post by andernach » 25 May 2023, 18:38

Hello Sheldrake,
hello Michael,
thanks for the interesting report on the 25th Field Regiment and aerial photos.
The SS-PzPiBtl 12 map I've attached might answer the questions. The 3./SS-PzPiBtl 12 deployed on the left, the 2./SS-PzPiBtl 12 on the right and the remains of the 4./SS-PzPiBtl 12 set back in the middle. South behind them, on the other side of the marked path, and to protect the battalion command post otherwise still available from the battalion. Except for the remnants of the 1./SS-PzPiBtl 12, which, as I wrote under #9, was at the disposal of the division and was not used in this sector of the front.

Regards,
andernach
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19440626_SS-PzPiBtl 12 le Mesnil-Patry.jpeg

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