The end of tanks as we know it?

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Cult Icon » 25 Apr 2023 05:11


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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Cult Icon » 25 Apr 2023 21:43

Russian state media claims (RIA N) that the T-14 tanks have seen their first combat action in Ukraine as infantry support/assault guns.

If that is the case they will release footage and definitely have combat correspondents attached to cover the T-14s.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 01 May 2023 15:50

From the Ukrainian Kyiv Independent ( better : not Independent ) September 1 2022
Title : How many tanks does Russia really have ?
'' We can not expect Russia to run critically low on tanks anytime soon .Despite heavy losses,Russia has still enough machines to continue waging its war for years . ''
This destroys the myth of the US AT weapons being game-changers .
Tanks are not game-changers, thus AT weapons are also not game-changers .

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Cult Icon » 04 May 2023 14:40

T-64s moved by rail by the Russians. So the T-54/55, T-62, and T-64 have 'entered the chat'.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Peter89 » 04 May 2023 16:11

Cult Icon wrote:
04 May 2023 14:40
T-64s moved by rail by the Russians. So the T-54/55, T-62, and T-64 have 'entered the chat'.

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What I find problematic is that the Western countries have literally hundreds and thousands of tanks that equal or outmatch the quality of these tanks. Not to mention AFVs, aircrafts and artillery pieces. The economic power of the Western countries would enable to deconserve and / or modernize an army of continental scale without impairing the defense abilities.

I mean I don't want to be rude, but near my home town anyone can drive a T-72 or a T-55 for a modest fee of 600-1000 EUR. Random people get a driving instruction in a few minutes and that's that. Operating an AFV park of 30 obsolete vehicles with instructors and technicians doesn't involve extraordinary costs yet it seems that Germany, Belgium and Denmark can't organize the delivery of a few hundred Leopard 1s in a year.

This is just one of those stuffs that makes me highly sceptical about the true nature of this unnatural war.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Peter89 » 04 May 2023 16:21

Having mentioned that, I've been to the Royal Museum of the Armed Forces and Military History in Brussels today. I've read that they have some three hundred Leopard 1 which they got rid of in the summer of 2014. Now I read in the news that they sold it to some private company which now tries to resell it to the Belgian state with some "inflation" attached. How is this a real war, one might ask.

Also I dare not to presume that there was some connection between the people who authorized the sale and those who bought it at a discount price, only a few months after Russia invaded the Crimea. That would be corruption, which can only cause problems for the Russian war effort.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 04 May 2023 16:28

Do not exaggerate : Belgium got rid of their Leos at the same time that everyone (including Germany ) was selling them almost for nothing, because otherwise no one would buy them . And in all cases there was connection between buyers and sellers .
And the invasion of Crimea was no reason not to sell them .Besides : why did Ukraine not buy them at a discount price ?

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Peter89 » 04 May 2023 17:10

ljadw wrote:
04 May 2023 16:28
Do not exaggerate : Belgium got rid of their Leos at the same time that everyone (including Germany ) was selling them almost for nothing, because otherwise no one would buy them . And in all cases there was connection between buyers and sellers .
And the invasion of Crimea was no reason not to sell them .Besides : why did Ukraine not buy them at a discount price ?
Indeed, why not?
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 04 May 2023 19:43

Because Ukraine considered (rightly ) that it did not need these tanks .

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 04 May 2023 19:51

Because Ukraine considered (rightly ) that it did not need these tanks . The Russian attack was an attack with limited geographic objectives,and, as far I can remember, they did not use tanks for the occupation of Crimea ,besides, no one thought that there would be a mass invasion of Ukraine in 2014 .

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Cult Icon » 05 May 2023 21:12

T-62M and T-90M

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30-something T-90M lined up in a row



T-90M with conventional forces, gallery

https://vk.com/milinfolive?w=wall-123538639_3602359

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Cult Icon » 08 May 2023 17:25

a few days ago Ukrainian intelligence claimed that Wagner PMC at Bakhmut had 25,000 men, 60+ tanks, 150+ IFV/APC

Wagner IFV and T-80/T-90 tanks

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Cult Icon » 25 May 2023 17:22

Newsreel of Russian training facilities, including a warehouse full of tank training simulators.

https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/russian-forces-training:c

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Ken S. » 26 May 2023 22:06

Screenshot 2023-05-26 5.05.31 PM.png
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Cult Icon » 26 May 2023 22:51

Peter89 wrote:
04 May 2023 16:11


This is just one of those stuffs that makes me highly sceptical about the true nature of this unnatural war.
IIRC US has around 5500 Abrams last I checked.

Overall the West appears to just want to inflict 'damage' on Russian forces without compromising their own capabilities significantly.

In the area of munitions the US is of total failure. Overall they are content with keeping Ukraine as a melting ice-cube.

We know from studying WW2 that tanks alone are low value and easily lost.

The real expense is the large organization (service and support) and large number of trained specialists that are needed to synergize the use of the tank. The stark difference between the combat value of the Panzer Brigade 1944 vs a Panzer division or a Soviet tank corps of 1942 vs a Soviet Mech. Corps of 1945.

The Battalion Tactical Group has turned into the 2022 version of the Panzer Brigade 1944. Building a functional division takes up to two years in peacetime.., which is what Russia is currently focused on doing.

Giving Ukraine ultra-tanks with primitive organization will simply result in them being abandoned in the field.

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