At what point did Germany lose WW2?

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john2
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by john2 » 31 Aug 2023 18:05

This whole thread is speculation. It's the same old story - If only Hitler had listened to his generals Germany would have won! Yes Hitler made mistakes that hastened Germany's end. But the whole project of trying to conquer Europe was doomed to failure because Germany didn't have the manpower and resources to do it. The best Germany could have hoped for was some sort of truce.

ewest89
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by ewest89 » 31 Aug 2023 18:12

john2 wrote:
31 Aug 2023 18:05
This whole thread is speculation. It's the same old story - If only Hitler had listened to his generals Germany would have won! Yes Hitler made mistakes that hastened Germany's end. But the whole project of trying to conquer Europe was doomed to failure because Germany didn't have the manpower and resources to do it. The best Germany could have hoped for was some sort of truce.
Really? And this is based on what? As it stands, WW 2 went like this: Britain, Radar, the End. With just a tad bit of help from the Americans, just like in World War One.

LineDoggie
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by LineDoggie » 31 Aug 2023 23:20

ewest89 wrote:
31 Aug 2023 18:12


Really? And this is based on what? As it stands, WW 2 went like this: Britain, Radar, the End. With just a tad bit of help from the Americans, just like in World War One.
Someday if possible read all the items of Lend Lease to the UK,
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/re ... index.html

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/re ... hip-7.html


the training in the USA for RAF and FAA aircrew
https://militaryhistorynow.com/2016/01/ ... uring-ww2/




US Army divisions in the ETO campaign
1st Infantry division
2nd Infantry division
3rd Infantry division
4th Infantry division
5th Infantry division
8th Infantry division
9th Infantry division
26th Infantry division
28th Infantry division
29th Infantry division
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42nd Infantry division
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63rd Infantry division
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102nd Infantry division
103rd Infantry division
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106th Infantry division
2nd Armored division
3rd Armored division
4th Armored division
5th Armored division
6th Armored division
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12th Armored division
13th Armored division
14th Armored division
16th Armored division
20th Armored division
13th Airborne division
17th Airborne division
82nd Airborne division
101st Airborne division

If you feel foolish, you should for the rank ignorance of your post
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KDF33
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by KDF33 » 01 Sep 2023 16:50

john2 wrote:
31 Aug 2023 18:05
But the whole project of trying to conquer Europe was doomed to failure because Germany didn't have the manpower and resources to do it.
How so?

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by KDF33 » 01 Sep 2023 16:59

john2 wrote:
30 Aug 2023 04:17
2 Germany did not have the manpower to defeat Russia militarily.
This is incorrect. Germany was in a very good position to eventually defeat the USSR in May - July 1942.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by T. A. Gardner » 01 Sep 2023 17:54

KDF33 wrote:
01 Sep 2023 16:59
john2 wrote:
30 Aug 2023 04:17
2 Germany did not have the manpower to defeat Russia militarily.
This is incorrect. Germany was in a very good position to eventually defeat the USSR in May - July 1942.
I would say, more like stalemate the Eastern front and possibly eke out some negotiated peace, but outright win? No.

KDF33
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by KDF33 » 01 Sep 2023 18:02

T. A. Gardner wrote:
01 Sep 2023 17:54
I would say, more like stalemate the Eastern front and possibly eke out some negotiated peace, but outright win? No.
I disagree. The balance of force generation and attrition was so favorable to the Germans by spring 1942 that, barring catastrophic German mistakes, the Soviets were on their way to a comprehensive defeat.

Fortunately, the Germans did make such a mistake.

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Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Aida1 » 01 Sep 2023 19:10

T. A. Gardner wrote:
01 Sep 2023 17:54
KDF33 wrote:
01 Sep 2023 16:59
john2 wrote:
30 Aug 2023 04:17
2 Germany did not have the manpower to defeat Russia militarily.
This is incorrect. Germany was in a very good position to eventually defeat the USSR in May - July 1942.
I would say, more like stalemate the Eastern front and possibly eke out some negotiated peace, but outright win? No.
Very true.

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Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Aida1 » 01 Sep 2023 19:11

KDF33 wrote:
01 Sep 2023 16:59
john2 wrote:
30 Aug 2023 04:17
2 Germany did not have the manpower to defeat Russia militarily.
This is incorrect. Germany was in a very good position to eventually defeat the USSR in May - July 1942.
Totally impossible given that Germany could only carry out an offensive in the south and even that with severe problems.

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Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Aida1 » 01 Sep 2023 19:15

KDF33 wrote:
01 Sep 2023 18:02
T. A. Gardner wrote:
01 Sep 2023 17:54
I would say, more like stalemate the Eastern front and possibly eke out some negotiated peace, but outright win? No.
I disagree. The balance of force generation and attrition was so favorable to the Germans by spring 1942 that, barring catastrophic German mistakes, the Soviets were on their way to a comprehensive defeat.

Fortunately, the Germans did make such a mistake.
You clearly suffer from a rosy view concerning the german Army in 1942 and underestimate the ability of the red army to generate new forces and arm them. A mistake was made but that would never be enough to make Germany lose.

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Eagle Flies » 01 Sep 2023 20:15

13 July 1942: Talking to the Turkish ambassador Gerede, Hitler admits that Russian soldiers are very good, and he is very impressed by Russian technical achievements, especially their tanks, which are far superior to those of any other military power.

P. 180-181, Hitler: A Chronology of His Life and Time (2008), Milan Hauner.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by T. A. Gardner » 01 Sep 2023 21:07

KDF33 wrote:
01 Sep 2023 18:02
T. A. Gardner wrote:
01 Sep 2023 17:54
I would say, more like stalemate the Eastern front and possibly eke out some negotiated peace, but outright win? No.
I disagree. The balance of force generation and attrition was so favorable to the Germans by spring 1942 that, barring catastrophic German mistakes, the Soviets were on their way to a comprehensive defeat.

Fortunately, the Germans did make such a mistake.
I don't see it. The Germans in the spring of 1942 couldn't even make good their losses. They were unable to bring every panzer division to full strength and instead only reinforced AGS divisions in anticipation of the upcoming offensive.
Logistically, divisions were forced to use tactical transport (both wagons and vehicles) to move supplies rather than in their intended roles because of both shortages of these items and because of the inability of the Wehrmacht to move rail lines forward fast enough to supply units at the front from convenient railheads.
The Luftwaffe was frequently seconded to flying transport missions to bring critical supplies forward rather than operating as a combat arm supporting operations.

Virtually every German division was short on material and personnel.

All of that says the Germans weren't in a favorable position. The Russians might not have been much of a match tactically, but their strategic position was far better than Germany's.

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by KDF33 » 01 Sep 2023 21:38

T. A. Gardner wrote:
01 Sep 2023 21:07
I don't see it. The Germans in the spring of 1942 couldn't even make good their losses.
That's incorrect. German strength in the East was steadily increasing in the spring of 1942.
They were unable to bring every panzer division to full strength and instead only reinforced AGS divisions in anticipation of the upcoming offensive.
That's true, but then the Germans didn't need to bring to full strength all of their Panzer divisions to defeat the Soviets.
Logistically, divisions were forced to use tactical transport (both wagons and vehicles) to move supplies rather than in their intended roles because of both shortages of these items and because of the inability of the Wehrmacht to move rail lines forward fast enough to supply units at the front from convenient railheads.

The Luftwaffe was frequently seconded to flying transport missions to bring critical supplies forward rather than operating as a combat arm supporting operations.
That had a lot to do with the cardinal German mistake of 1942, namely attacking in the southern direction.
Virtually every German division was short on material and personnel.
That was also true of the Soviet divisions.
All of that says the Germans weren't in a favorable position.
I'd argue it simply meant that, unlike on 21/6/41, most of their units were now attrited to a varying extent.

But this was also the case for the Soviets.
The Russians might not have been much of a match tactically
This was the decisive factor.
but their strategic position was far better than Germany's.
I don't see how.

KDF33
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by KDF33 » 01 Sep 2023 22:16

Aida1 wrote:
01 Sep 2023 19:15
You clearly suffer from a rosy view concerning the german Army in 1942
No.
and underestimate the ability of the red army to generate new forces and arm them.
Not at all. In fact, I am conceivably one of the best-informed person on that very topic.

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Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Aida1 » 02 Sep 2023 07:11

KDF33 wrote:
01 Sep 2023 22:16
Aida1 wrote:
01 Sep 2023 19:15
You clearly suffer from a rosy view concerning the german Army in 1942
No.
and underestimate the ability of the red army to generate new forces and arm them.
Not at all. In fact, I am conceivably one of the best-informed person on that very topic.
What incredible arrogance to pretend to know everything better than anybody.. No you are not. Maybe the biggest ego. Actually, you would be hard put to work out a masterplan for beating the USSR in 1942 with the weakened German Army. And it was weakened contrary to your fiction.

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