IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 08 Sep 2023 03:15

glenn239 wrote:
07 Sep 2023 18:55
But I did have a question - after being reduced to 18, do you think Akagi would have held on to its support equipment for a 27 plane squadron, such as arming carts?
I think IJNAF had TOEs for 27 planes squadron (one squadron) and 18 planes squadron (half squadron) independently. Roughly, the number of components (men and equipment) in the latter was half that of the former. I believe that all personnel (pilots and mechanics) and equipment (planes and ground support equipment), excluding the latter, disembarked from Akagi.

glenn239 wrote:
07 Sep 2023 18:55
If Iizuka was transferred to USA in April then he'd have said he was transferred to USA in April. He had no reason to lie. His description of his wounds do not seem like they required a hospital bed, only for the swelling to subside so that flight status could be restored. I think it's absolutely credible that he would remain aboard Akagi, miss operations in the Indian Ocean due to injuries, then recover flight status in the weeks afterwards. I see no basis for Akagi flight records mattering because these were destroyed in the battle. His account of the battle matches the only other Akagi D3A1 pilot's account I've seen, so there is nothing remarkable in it either.
USA? The action reports of Akagi flight units 飛行隊戦闘行動調書 are not missed. See the below. I showed the Val formation at Midway 1st Wave Attack which was based on it in #56 in this thread. Iizuka did not participate in Midway 1st Wave Attack, his rear-seat crew until March Yutaka Kawai was paired with another pilot, because I think, Iizuka had already disembarked from Akagi. Of course, I don't have the exact basis for when Iizuka disembarked Akagi. So unless you accept what I have said, I cannot provide any further evidence.

Addition
My source was a local newspaper article below;
真珠湾攻撃80年 茨城・笠間出身の川井裕さん 19歳で出撃、命尽くす(2021年12月8日配信『茨城新聞クロスアイ』
80th Anniversary of Pearl Harbor Attack: Yutaka Kawai from Kasama, Ibaraki, Sorties at the age of 19 and sacrifices his life ("Ibaraki Shimbun Cross Eye" distributed on December 8, 2021)
This article is about 川井裕さん Kawai Yuitaka who was the 2nd seat crew of the Val Izuka piloted. The part about Iizuka in this article is;
一方の飯塚さんは、真珠湾攻撃後の戦いで目を負傷し、治療に専念。完治後は教官として後進を育成し、戦後は栃木県で警察官となり、警察署長も務めた。
On the other hand, Mr. Iizuka was injured in the battle after the attack on Pearl Harbor and devoted himself to treatment. After he fully recovered, he trained younger trainees as an instructor, and after the war, he became a police officer in Tochigi Prefecture, where he also served as the police chief.



赤城飛行隊 行動調書.jpg

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Eugen Pinak
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Eugen Pinak » 11 Sep 2023 09:07

glenn239 wrote:
07 Sep 2023 18:55
fontessa wrote:
31 Aug 2023 12:10
Sure? Did he go to Midway on Akagi's medical room bed? Hard to believe. Akagi returned to Yokosuka, Japan on 24 April 1943. It was determined that her number of Kate was reduced from 27 to 18 on 1 April 1943. So extras Kate and crew left her there. I believe Iizuka also left her at this time at the latest. The 1st Air Fleet departed Hashirajima Anchorage on 27 May 1943.
Iizuka flew Vals so a Kate reduction I don't see being a factor. But I did have a question - after being reduced to 18, do you think Akagi would have held on to its support equipment for a 27 plane squadron, such as arming carts?
I really doubt air groups removed quite an amount of equipment from carriers each time they were sent to land bases.
As for exact number - one had to look at the tables of equipment to be sure about this. Maybe "Akagi" and "Kaga" were even still equipped for pre-war 45-plane torpedo bomber unit.
glenn239 wrote:
07 Sep 2023 18:55
If Iizuka was transferred to USA in April then he'd have said he was transferred to USA in April. He had no reason to lie.
Nor did Fuchida - yet he lied.
Any way Iizuka lied about Midway too in his memoirs, which brings him into the "unreliable witness" category. And there are no independent sources confirming his presence aboard "Akagi" at Midway.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 11 Sep 2023 15:54

Eugen Pinak wrote:
11 Sep 2023 09:07
I really doubt air groups removed quite an amount of equipment from carriers each time they were sent to land bases.
As for exact number - one had to look at the tables of equipment to be sure about this. Maybe "Akagi" and "Kaga" were even still equipped for pre-war 45-plane torpedo bomber unit.
I had the wrong idea. TOE was created for each squadron after the carrier air unit was dismantled due to "Air-ground Separation." At the moment we are talking, Kate Squad, Val Squad, and Zero Squad have been integrated into one Akagi Air Unit. Apart from the planes, some of the ground support equipment was also shared, so it may have been difficult to separate them.

Eugen Pinak wrote:
31 Aug 2023 12:45
Veterans sometimes say a lot of interesting things...
Agreed. It may or may not be just a misunderstanding. In AHF, such an example. In Pearl Harbor, a veteran sow E8Nis in their then-current camouflage in Peal Harbor. But it is wrong, actually, E13As flew there.
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=271938


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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 12 Sep 2023 20:58

fontessa wrote:
08 Sep 2023 03:15
USA? The action reports of Akagi flight units 飛行隊戦闘行動調書 are not missed. See the below. I showed the Val formation at Midway 1st Wave Attack which was based on it in #56 in this thread. Iizuka did not participate in Midway 1st Wave Attack, his rear-seat crew until March Yutaka Kawai was paired with another pilot, because I think, Iizuka had already disembarked from Akagi. Of course, I don't have the exact basis for when Iizuka disembarked Akagi. So unless you accept what I have said, I cannot provide any further evidence.
I'm thinking that between the theories of Iizuka lying for no reason that I can see, or the flight records being imperfect because the Akagi was sunk, that the latter is probably my first choice.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 12 Sep 2023 21:11

Eugen Pinak wrote:
11 Sep 2023 09:07
I really doubt air groups removed quite an amount of equipment from carriers each time they were sent to land bases.
As for exact number - one had to look at the tables of equipment to be sure about this. Maybe "Akagi" and "Kaga" were even still equipped for pre-war 45-plane torpedo bomber unit.
It would make sense that the equipment would stay aboard.
Nor did Fuchida - yet he lied.
Any way Iizuka lied about Midway too in his memoirs, which brings him into the "unreliable witness" category. .
Speaking of which, we may just might have to add the Akagi herself to your list of liars. They inspected the flight deck and hangers yesterday during an 8hr dive on the wreck and with the flight deck being badly ripped up, they could see well into both hanger levels for much of the aft section of the ship. One of the questions asked during the survey is if there were aircraft aboard. They said they couldn't see any aircraft or debris in hanger sections they could see into, and speculated that these must have been on the flight deck and may appear in the debris field as this is mapped towards the point of bombing.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 13 Sep 2023 06:33

glenn239 wrote:
12 Sep 2023 21:11
Eugen Pinak wrote:
11 Sep 2023 09:07
Nor did Fuchida - yet he lied.
Any way Iizuka lied about Midway too in his memoirs, which brings him into the "unreliable witness" category.
Speaking of which, we may just might have to add the Akagi herself to your list of liars. They inspected the flight deck and hangers yesterday during an 8hr dive on the wreck and with the flight deck being badly ripped up, they could see well into both hanger levels for much of the aft section of the ship. One of the questions asked during the survey is if there were aircraft aboard. They said they couldn't see any aircraft or debris in hanger sections they could see into, and speculated that these must have been on the flight deck and may appear in the debris field as this is mapped towards the point of bombing.
Are you talking about the Akagi wreck? The cause of Akagi's sank was the explosions of 18 800kg non-armour-piercing bombs and 18 800kg torpedoes during 18 Kate's armament conversion between them. Added to these bombers and torpedoes, all Kate fuel tanks were filled with gasoline. The planes were blown away and her flight deck was also torn apart. No wonder there are no visible debris left in the hangar. There was/is no liar about this.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 13 Sep 2023 23:57

fontessa wrote:
13 Sep 2023 06:33
Are you talking about the Akagi wreck? The cause of Akagi's sank was the explosions of 18 800kg non-armour-piercing bombs and 18 800kg torpedoes during 18 Kate's armament conversion between them. Added to these bombers and torpedoes, all Kate fuel tanks were filled with gasoline. The planes were blown away and her flight deck was also torn apart. No wonder there are no visible debris left in the hangar. There was/is no liar about this.
So if the aircraft are in the hangers then the modern theory on the Akagi's loss is confirmed by the debris, and if the aircraft are not in the hangers then the modern theory is also confirmed by the lack of debris? The other theory was that the aircraft were not in the hanger, and this theory also requires that the hangers would be found to be empty.

We are not experts in the field of WW2 era aircraft carrier hanger fires, so at this point we need to wait events of the expedition. The podcasts were confusing to watch, but the general pattern seemed to be that Kaga's hangers might have been mostly or completely gone, such that it'salmost like the hangers were never mounted on the ship. In contrast, Akagi's are heavily ripped up and open on the flight deck for long stretches, but they are still there and the ROV could look into the hangers. In answer to a question the team that inspected the hangers said that they did not see aircraft debris in them.

If the Akagi's aircraft were on the flight deck, then they will be found in the debris field going back towards the point of bombing. If they were in the hanger, then they should have seen evidence of aircraft remains in the hanger. It is possible that the ship was inverted while sinking and that debris spilled out, but in this case, the aircraft debris must be close to the wreck. The facts as I understand them at this moment is that the state of the wreck is consistent with Akagi's aircraft on the flight deck when bombed because there is no evidence from the wreck that they were in the hanger. If on the flight deck there should be aircraft discovered in the debris field. If no aircraft are in the future discovered in the debris field then they must still be in the hanger. But, if they are in the hanger, then the ROV team would have just said that. So the aircraft are more likely in the debris field I would think.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 14 Sep 2023 03:28

glenn239 wrote:
13 Sep 2023 23:57
fontessa wrote:
13 Sep 2023 06:33
Are you talking about the Akagi wreck? The cause of Akagi's sank was the explosions of 18 800kg non-armour-piercing bombs and 18 800kg torpedoes during 18 Kate's armament conversion between them. Added to these bombers and torpedoes, all Kate fuel tanks were filled with gasoline. The planes were blown away and her flight deck was also torn apart. No wonder there are no visible debris left in the hangar. There was/is no liar about this.
So if the aircraft are in the hangers then the modern theory on the Akagi's loss is confirmed by the debris, and if the aircraft are not in the hangers then the modern theory is also confirmed by the lack of debris? The other theory was that the aircraft were not in the hanger, and this theory also requires that the hangers would be found to be empty.

We are not experts in the field of WW2 era aircraft carrier hanger fires, so at this point we need to wait events of the expedition. The podcasts were confusing to watch, but the general pattern seemed to be that Kaga's hangers might have been mostly or completely gone, such that it'salmost like the hangers were never mounted on the ship. In contrast, Akagi's are heavily ripped up and open on the flight deck for long stretches, but they are still there and the ROV could look into the hangers. In answer to a question the team that inspected the hangers said that they did not see aircraft debris in them.

If the Akagi's aircraft were on the flight deck, then they will be found in the debris field going back towards the point of bombing. If they were in the hanger, then they should have seen evidence of aircraft remains in the hanger. It is possible that the ship was inverted while sinking and that debris spilled out, but in this case, the aircraft debris must be close to the wreck. The facts as I understand them at this moment is that the state of the wreck is consistent with Akagi's aircraft on the flight deck when bombed because there is no evidence from the wreck that they were in the hanger. If on the flight deck there should be aircraft discovered in the debris field. If no aircraft are in the future discovered in the debris field then they must still be in the hanger. But, if they are in the hanger, then the ROV team would have just said that. So the aircraft are more likely in the debris field I would think.
Thanks for the detailed comment. Sorry for my poor English skills. Are you saying that I was wrong (or maybe wrong) in saying that Kates were in the hangar when Akagi was dive-bombed? If so, Kates were in the hangar. Based on the research from many Akagi survivors, Senshi Sosho says so. Japanese Wiki just followed suit. It may have been an exaggeration regarding debris in my comments...

Additopn
Senshi Sosho also says;
"It is often said 「When Akagi was bombed, she completed attack preparations, and the bomb exploded when the attack force began to take off and the first aircraft left the ship.」 But it was wrong and the bomb actually fell when the first Zero for CAP was taking off."
Actually, I also believed in this "Five Minutes of Destiny'' story for a long time...


glenn239 wrote:
12 Sep 2023 20:58
fontessa wrote:
08 Sep 2023 03:15
USA? The action reports of Akagi flight units 飛行隊戦闘行動調書 are not missed. See the below. I showed the Val formation at Midway 1st Wave Attack which was based on it in #56 in this thread. Iizuka did not participate in Midway 1st Wave Attack, his rear-seat crew until March Yutaka Kawai was paired with another pilot, because I think, Iizuka had already disembarked from Akagi. Of course, I don't have the exact basis for when Iizuka disembarked Akagi. So unless you accept what I have said, I cannot provide any further evidence.
I'm thinking that between the theories of Iizuka lying for no reason that I can see, or the flight records being imperfect because the Akagi was sunk, that the latter is probably my first choice.
I have one question. What are the "flight records"? I have shown the action reports of Akagi flight units 飛行隊戦闘行動調書. It mentions there were 18 plots and Iizuka was not there. Akagi Val Unit had no backup pilot, so I concluded that Iizuka was not on board Akagi at that time. If you don't mind, could you show me your recollections of Iizuka?

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Eugen Pinak » 14 Sep 2023 10:10

glenn239 wrote:
12 Sep 2023 21:11
Nor did Fuchida - yet he lied.
Any way Iizuka lied about Midway too in his memoirs, which brings him into the "unreliable witness" category. .
Speaking of which, we may just might have to add the Akagi herself to your list of liars. They inspected the flight deck and hangers yesterday during an 8hr dive on the wreck and with the flight deck being badly ripped up, they could see well into both hanger levels for much of the aft section of the ship. One of the questions asked during the survey is if there were aircraft aboard. They said they couldn't see any aircraft or debris in hanger sections they could see into, and speculated that these must have been on the flight deck and may appear in the debris field as this is mapped towards the point of bombing.
If you'd return to the reality, you'd remember, that even if Fuchida's story is 200% truthful, 30% of "Agagi" (and other carriers') planes were to be still in the hangars in the moment of its attack ;)
BTW, exactly this part of Iizuka's story told me he was not telling truth - if his claim was correct "Akagi" strike force simply couldn't took off the ship.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Eugen Pinak » 14 Sep 2023 10:27

fontessa wrote:
14 Sep 2023 03:28
We are not experts in the field of WW2 era aircraft carrier hanger fires, so at this point we need to wait events of the expedition. The podcasts were confusing to watch, but the general pattern seemed to be that Kaga's hangers might have been mostly or completely gone, such that it'salmost like the hangers were never mounted on the ship. In contrast, Akagi's are heavily ripped up and open on the flight deck for long stretches, but they are still there and the ROV could look into the hangers. In answer to a question the team that inspected the hangers said that they did not see aircraft debris in them.
Glenn makes such comments because he really likes Fuchida's "5 minute till takeoff" story, and Iizuka supports Fuchida.
The problem with this is that we knew from various sources (including Fuchida himself), that Iizuka is not telling the truth - dive bombers were NOT on the flight deck of "Akagi" at the moment of US strike. But if they weren't on the flight deck of "Akagi" they could be only in its hangars.

fontessa wrote:
14 Sep 2023 03:28
I have one question. What are the "flight records"? I have shown the action reports of Akagi flight units 飛行隊戦闘行動調書. It mentions there were 18 plots and Iizuka was not there. Akagi Val Unit had no backup pilot, so I concluded that Iizuka was not on board Akagi at that time. If you don't mind, could you show me your recollections of Iizuka?
Fontessa - here is a link on English translation of Iizuka story (links to parts are at the bottom of the page): https://j-aircraft.com/research/jimlans ... rward.html

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by cstunts » 14 Sep 2023 14:56

Hello Fontessa & Eugen.

Is there consensus that Iizuka's recollections are accurate re his First Stage ops experiences? His account of the attacks on PECOS seemed to be truthful, or so I believed back in 2006 at least. (I had no specific interest in his accounts after March 1942, that is.)

TIA

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 14 Sep 2023 17:06

fontessa wrote:
14 Sep 2023 03:28
We are not experts in the field of WW2 era aircraft carrier hanger fires, so at this point we need to wait events of the expedition. The podcasts were confusing to watch, but the general pattern seemed to be that Kaga's hangers might have been mostly or completely gone, such that it'salmost like the hangers were never mounted on the ship. In contrast, Akagi's are heavily ripped up and open on the flight deck for long stretches, but they are still there and the ROV could look into the hangers. In answer to a question the team that inspected the hangers said that they did not see aircraft debris in them.
Correction. The above is not my comment.

Eugen Pinak wrote:
14 Sep 2023 10:27
Fontessa - here is a link on English translation of Iizuka story (links to parts are at the bottom of the page): https://j-aircraft.com/research/jimlans ... rward.html
Many thanks, Eugen. Everything became clear for me. I thought something about the exchange with glenn239 didn't work well. And I thought it might be related to the "Five Minutes of Destiny'' story (your "5 minutes till takeoff" story). In Iizuka's flashback above, I know that he wasn't on the Akagi because his "Experience at Midway" was the "Five Minutes of Destiny'' story itself.

I would like to explain in a little more detail. After the war, in 1951, two naval officers who had experienced Midway published a book called “ミッドウェイ Midway.'' The situation described there at the time of the sinking of Akagi is called "Five Minutes of Destiny''. It spread all over Japan as the “Truth behind the Sinking of Akagi.'', and Iizuka borrowed this completely and included it in his book as his experience in Midway. But, as mentioned earlier, this story was clearly denied in Senshi Sosho Vol.43 published in 1971. A book collecting recollections of naval officers was published in 1991, to which Iizuka contributed, but did not mention Midway. The publication of Fake by two Navy officers is currently being criticized, but it is certainly embarrassing.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Eugen Pinak » 14 Sep 2023 19:32

cstunts wrote:
14 Sep 2023 14:56
Hello Fontessa & Eugen.

Is there consensus that Iizuka's recollections are accurate re his First Stage ops experiences? His account of the attacks on PECOS seemed to be truthful, or so I believed back in 2006 at least. (I had no specific interest in his accounts after March 1942, that is.)

TIA
I really haven't checked his account before Midway with a "magnifying glass", but it looks like his accounts are correct, save maybe some small embellishments.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Eugen Pinak » 14 Sep 2023 19:39

fontessa wrote:
14 Sep 2023 17:06
Eugen Pinak wrote:
14 Sep 2023 10:27
Fontessa - here is a link on English translation of Iizuka story (links to parts are at the bottom of the page): https://j-aircraft.com/research/jimlans ... rward.html
Many thanks, Eugen. Everything became clear for me. I thought something about the exchange with glenn239 didn't work well. And I thought it might be related to the "Five Minutes of Destiny'' story (your "5 minutes till takeoff" story). In Iizuka's flashback above, I know that he wasn't on the Akagi because his "Experience at Midway" was the "Five Minutes of Destiny'' story itself.

I would like to explain in a little more detail. After the war, in 1951, two naval officers who had experienced Midway published a book called “ミッドウェイ Midway.'' The situation described there at the time of the sinking of Akagi is called "Five Minutes of Destiny''. It spread all over Japan as the “Truth behind the Sinking of Akagi.'', and Iizuka borrowed this completely and included it in his book as his experience in Midway. But, as mentioned earlier, this story was clearly denied in Senshi Sosho Vol.43 published in 1971. A book collecting recollections of naval officers was published in 1991, to which Iizuka contributed, but did not mention Midway. The publication of Fake by two Navy officers is currently being criticized, but it is certainly embarrassing.

fontessa
Yes, that's exactly the story.
Unfortunately, even of "Midway" volume of "Senshi Sosho" was published in 1971, the story itself was largely unknown in the West until 2005, when Parshall and Tully published "Shattered Sword" book about Midway, where several myths about the battle, including "Five Minutes of Destiny'', were debunked. Alas, some people still tend to believe this story :(

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Rob Stuart » 14 Sep 2023 22:07

glenn239 wrote:
13 Sep 2023 23:57
If the Akagi's aircraft were on the flight deck, then they will be found in the debris field going back towards the point of bombing. If they were in the hanger, then they should have seen evidence of aircraft remains in the hanger. It is possible that the ship was inverted while sinking and that debris spilled out, but in this case, the aircraft debris must be close to the wreck. The facts as I understand them at this moment is that the state of the wreck is consistent with Akagi's aircraft on the flight deck when bombed because there is no evidence from the wreck that they were in the hanger. If on the flight deck there should be aircraft discovered in the debris field. If no aircraft are in the future discovered in the debris field then they must still be in the hanger. But, if they are in the hanger, then the ROV team would have just said that. So the aircraft are more likely in the debris field I would think.
First of all, a hanger is something you put clothes on and hang in a closet. On an aircraft carrier a space below the flight deck where aircraft are kept and serviced between sorties is called a hangar.

Second, there is no way that "Akagi's aircraft", i.e. all of them, could have been on the flight deck. There was insufficient room. Concerning the strike aircraft, there are only two possibilities:

(1) They were all in the hangars

(2) Some of them (some or all of the torpedo bombers) were on the flight and the remainder were in the hangars.

So at the very least all the dive bombers were in the hangars when Akagi was hit. If the ROV finds no recognizable aircraft debris in either hangar, assuming it can access both of them, the explanation cannot be that all of Akagi's aircraft were on the flight deck.

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