IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

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glenn239
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 22 Sep 2023 01:01

fontessa wrote:
21 Sep 2023 07:46
OK. Please tell me why you think Akagi 飛行機隊行動調書 has been reconstructed. Please don't say "Because Iizuka is not listed".
Third request: I want you to tell me which three Akagi fighter pilots were going to fly the escort mission, and I want you to go into detail on how you arrived at your three names.

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 22 Sep 2023 02:21

glenn239 wrote:
22 Sep 2023 01:01
fontessa wrote:
21 Sep 2023 07:46
OK. Please tell me why you think Akagi 飛行機隊行動調書 has been reconstructed. Please don't say "Because Iizuka is not listed".
Third request: I want you to tell me which three Akagi fighter pilots were going to fly the escort mission, and I want you to go into detail on how you arrived at your three names.
I don't know. The 2nd wave attack unit never took off, so I have no way of knowing.
Again;
Please tell me why you think Akagi 飛行機隊行動調書 has been reconstructed. Please don't say "Because Iizuka is not listed".

fontessa

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 22 Sep 2023 05:24

glenn239 wrote:
22 Sep 2023 00:59
Eugen Pinak wrote:
21 Sep 2023 07:19
If you'd bothered to read Fuchida's account entirely and not just its parts you like - you'd find out he is directly contradicting IIzuka's claim.
I said Furuta, not Fuchida.
glenn239 wrote:
22 Sep 2023 00:45
If Akagi's Kates were in the hanger then, they are there now and not in the debris field. So we will see. Both Furuta and Iizuka stated that their aircraft were on the flight deck when Akagi was bombed, not in the hangar.
Furuta was FPO1 Furuta Kiyoto 古田清人 and was certainly filed in Akagi 飛行隊行動調書. NHK (Nippon Hoso Kyokai) interviewed him on December 21, 2009, and May 25, 2010. There he talks about the situation at the time of the sinking of Akagi.
https://www2.nhk.or.jp/archives/movies/ ... 0142_00000
Although it is long, the Google translation of the part related to Akagi is shown below. And the relevant parts of Iizuka Tokuji's recollections are shown above.
To be honest, this is the first time I've heard that Val was going to join the second wave attack. To summarize what both parties are saying;
 Iizuka says he was in the cockpit on the flight deck when the fateful bomb exploded.
 Furuta says he was inside the ship just after the loading of the bomb in the hangar when the fateful bomb exploded.
Since Furuya is probably right, we can conclude that Iizuka, who is saying something different from Furuya, was not on board the Akagi after all.
(tired...)

To glenn239;
Now I can confirm that Akagi 飛行隊行動調書 is the original one. I asked you to tell me why you think Akagi 飛行機隊行動調書 has been reconstructed. Unless you can show the basis for saying that Akagi 飛行隊行動調書 is a restored one, it is just said in Japanese いいがかり a false charge.


Story of Iizuka Tpkuji
Simultaneously with the loss of the Zero in the Aleutians, Japan lost four of her aircraft carriers at the Battle of Midway. I was then still a flight-crew member on board the Akagi and I joined in attacking Midway. After completing the first wave attack, we were busy loading land bombs for the second wave attack. Just at that time a report came that an enemy task force was sighted. So a quick change from land bombs to ship bombs had to be made. This took some time. Preparation for take-off was completed and the time came to line up the attack planes on deck so they could take off first. Just at the moment two Zeros took off; the enemy bombs began to fall on our deck. At the time, I was already in my plane ready for take-off and I could see the bombs coming toward me, one by one. The explosions touched off the bombs and machine gun ammunition, which had been loaded onto our planes. Next, the petrol tanks full of fuel began to catch on fire.
So I went to attack Midway, my target. As I just said, all the fighter planes were flying over there at that time, and we attacked an airfield that was completely empty. So I attacked where there was nothing, so the attack was over, and there was nothing, and there was no damage to me. After the bombing was over, we returned to the Japanese aircraft carrier.

Story of Fuyuya Kiyoto
When I returned, I found that Midway's large planes were actively bombing Japanese aircraft carriers from high altitude. I thought Akagi would be destroyed. So I came back and tried to land on her, but I couldn't do anything to land it because it was being bombed from high altitude over there, so I circled around from a little distance away. I turned around and looked at it. Fortunately, Akagi was not hit by the high-altitude bomb and escaped the disaster. When the ship was finally finished, I decided to land on Akagi. After the bombing was over. So we landed. It was just around noon. So when I landed on the ship and went to the crew room, I found that lunch was prepared properly, and when I ate lunch there, I looked out the porthole of this ship and saw that an American torpedo bomber was attacking. American torpedo bombers were approaching Akagi, and as I said earlier, they were away from thie airfield, so they were all coming to attack the Japanese aircraft carriers. So I was looking at it, and there was an attack coming, so I thought, wow, this is a big deal, but I was just in the middle of lunch and I was eating there.

Then, they told me that an enemy aircraft carrier was coming somewhere nearby, so I immediately loaded torpedoes and bombs into the hangar. There was an order from above to prepare for the attack, so I immediately said, 'I'm the senior crew member, so I told all the crew members that you should go right away and help. This is because the weapons personnel alone are not enough. At that time, I took all the crew members, went to the hangar, and loaded the bombs and torpedoes into the hangar, and then loaded them all there, and then all the torpedoes and bombs were loaded in the hangar, so all right. It's just when it's hot. Even though I was wearing my flight suit, I told everyone to go out to the gangway and cool off while I came out of the hangar. I'm also hot, so I thought I'd cool off. I just came out of this hangar and looked over, and Kaga was about 1,000 meters away. This must have also been loaded with bombs and torpedoes. Because it's an order. All the aircraft carriers and ships were loading bombs and torpedoes onto planes, and preparing to attack the enemy based on orders.

Just as I was looking, I saw a dive bomber crashing into Kaga from above. Unfortunately, the first bomb hit Kaga's bridge with a bang, and two and three bombs followed, hitting Kaga. I thought, “Oh, I'm no good,'' and Kaga must have just loaded up on airplane bombs and torpedoes, as I just said, so I thought, “This is no good.'' Having said that, whenever I go on an attack, I always go to the toilet before boarding the plane, just in case I get stuck. On that day, the plane had just been loaded with bombs, but I thought it would fly out immediately if the order was given, so I saw Kaga's attack, but I went inside and decided to go to pee. Yes. Went to the bottom of the lower deck.

The bomb hit the flight deck over my head. I thought I was defeated.

赤城戦闘機隊 行動調書 00.jpg

赤城 古田清人 1.jpg

赤城 古田清人 2.jpg

fontessa
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Last edited by fontessa on 22 Sep 2023 19:27, edited 1 time in total.

Rob Stuart
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Rob Stuart » 22 Sep 2023 10:01

glenn239 wrote:
22 Sep 2023 00:45
Both Furuta and Iizuka stated that their aircraft were on the flight deck when Akagi was bombed, not in the hanger.
According to info cited by fontessa in his latest post, Furata stated in 2009-2010 that he helped to re-arm the aircraft in the hangars, and that when that was completed he went out on to the gangway, apparently one located at hangar deck level, and saw Kaga being attacked. He then went to the heads for a pee and was still below deck when Akagi was hit. He does not state that his aircraft was on the flight deck when Akagi was attacked. Indeed, if he was below deck at 1025 then there was no way that his D3A was on the flight deck and about to take off behind the three Zeros assigned to escort the strike, the first of which was supposedly speeding down the runway at that moment.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Rob Stuart » 22 Sep 2023 10:26

glenn239 wrote:
22 Sep 2023 00:25
On Kaga, there was no possibility that rearmed dive bombers could have been included in the 1030 attack because Kaga's torpedo bomber wing was 26 strong. On Akagi, it was a different story. Akagi's torpedo squadron was just 17 planes, not 27, and her dive bomber squadron had as little as 13 planes operational after the Midway attack, totalling just 30.
You are still ignoring the fact that the Nagumo Report, which you put so much stock in, actually says what the composition of the first strike against the enemy ships was to be:

... every effort was made to expedite completing preparations for the take-off of Organization Number 4. (Akagi: 3 ship-based fighters; 18 ship-based attack planes. Kaga: 3 ship-based fighters; 27 ship-based attack planes. Hiryu: 3 ship-based fighters; 18 ship-based bombers. Soryu: 3 ship-based fighters; 18 ship-based bombers).

This makes it pretty damn clear that Nagumo did not order Akagi to include dive bombers in this attack.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 22 Sep 2023 20:08

fontessa wrote:
22 Sep 2023 02:21
I don't know. The 2nd wave attack unit never took off, so I have no way of knowing.
A question - who is the Akagi pilot in CAP rotation A7A that takes off from Akagi at 0932? Shattered Sword says its Kimura Tadao, but no such pilot was in the Akagi fighter roster. Can you say what the name is in the Japanese records that you have for this pilot?

Adding to the previous information I posted, I would add the following. Mori Sakae and Kawada Yozo, the two Midway escorts that landed and never took off again, the ones that were certainly Midway escorts, this pair had ranks of PO2c and and PO3c. So, the last pilot, the one we are looking for, the one of the three that would have taken off first, he will have been a PO1c. That means Takasuga Mitsuyoshi, (landed at 0951 is out) as is Ohara Hiroshi, because they are a PO3c and a PO2c respectively.

There are three PO1c pilots aboard at 1025. As already indicated, two of these Iwashiro Yoshio and Tanaka Katsumi had just landed at 1010. They could not have been ready to fly just 15 minutes later. Further, one had been flying since 0808 and the other since 0832. Kimura, the only other PO1c aboard, might have flown a quick flight, might not have. Either way, he was fresh and the other two had been involved in heavy combat for 1.5 - 2 hours and were in no shape to escort.

So the only PO1c aboard Akagi that fits for escort is Kimura. And that's the guy who took off at 1025.

Again;
Please tell me why you think Akagi 飛行機隊行動調書 has been reconstructed. Please don't say "Because Iizuka is not listed".
I think it because the ship was bombed and sunk on June 4th. Fuchida's account - he almost burned to death on the flight deck - it was utter chaos. I don't think anyone was running around packing up paperwork. I think the records went down with the ship.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 22 Sep 2023 20:35

fontessa wrote:
22 Sep 2023 05:24
To be honest, this is the first time I've heard that Val was going to join the second wave attack. To summarize what both parties are saying;
I'd never heard of it either until I read Furuta's account in Beyond Pearl Harbor. That's why I didn't blush at all the Iizuka account, since they are very similar in basic detail.
 Iizuka says he was in the cockpit on the flight deck when the fateful bomb exploded.
Yes. Iizuka's account is the same as Furuta's except that Iizuka is in his plane and Furuta is not.
 Furuta says he was inside the ship just after the loading of the bomb in the hangar when the fateful bomb exploded.
Very curious differences between that and what Furuta told Werneth. Here, from Beyond Pearl Harbor, pg23-24 (bolding is mine)

...Nagumo and his staff thought that the planes must be coming from an enemy carrier, so he ordered us to prepare our airplanes for the next strike. Because I was the senior pilot, I told the younger airmen to go to the hanger and help ready the airplanes. They did this, and finished loading the bombs and torpedoes on the aircraft. The mechanics then poured fuel into them and took them to the deck. We were to take off shortly after this, and when we finished working on the airplanes, it was very hot....I...went outside to cool off.

Bolded parts - Furuta is stating the arming and fueling is already completed, the mechanics "took them to the deck", meaning, Furuta's Val is spotted on the flight deck before Kaga is hit.

"...After seeing <the attack on Kaga>... I thought it was best to urinate because I probably would be flying another mission very shortly....

A note on your version of this sentence, which is that your version not only does not make sense, it violates the known rules for spotting and warming aircraft to get around the obvious problem. If Furuta's Val was still in the hanger, then it would take at least 30 minutes to spot and warm the aircraft. He will have had no need to urinate at that exact moment. He is watching a shocking spectacle - the bombing of Kaga. He breaks away from this to pee. This makes no sense if he's 30 minutes from take off. The only way Furuta needs to hit the head immediately is if his Val is already on the flight deck.

Furuta goes on to describe damage control efforts,

"I felt that this was a very bad situation, because at that time our airpolanes were fueled up and loaded with ammunition. The bombs created a big fire, and we couldn't do anything about it. Inside our hanger our bombs blew up one after another, so it became a blazing cauldron.

Bombs hitting the ship created a big fire with the fueled and armed planes, while bombs in the hanger blew up. No mention of aircraft in the hanger. If fully fueled aircraft were in the hangers, they'd have chain detonated just like they did on Kaga, and shredded the entire hanger assembly such that nothing would be left on the wreck. The aircraft are a big fire on the flight deck, the bombs are blowing up in the hanger.


"I ended up going to the flight deck because I was ordered to put out a fire. ....We were concerned about the fire reaching the room where the ammunition was stored. If the fire spread there our carrier would be split into two parts. ...as I mentioned, before, the ammunition in the hanger continued to blow up one after the other. ...so we just gave up trying to put out the blaze..."


Why would Furuta be fighting fires on the flight deck unless there was a deck park there? Furuta is trying to prevent a fire on the flight deck getting down to the ammunition storage, meaning that the fire on the flight deck was worse than the fire in the hangers. What is there to burn on the flight deck other than aircraft? Also note again, he says that it's bombs going off in the hanger. No aircraft, just bombs.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 22 Sep 2023 21:47

glenn239 wrote:
22 Sep 2023 20:35
fontessa wrote:
22 Sep 2023 05:24
To be honest, this is the first time I've heard that Val was going to join the second wave attack. To summarize what both parties are saying;
I'd never heard of it either until I read Furuta's account in Beyond Pearl Harbor. That's why I didn't blush at all the Iizuka account, since they are very similar in basic detail.
 Iizuka says he was in the cockpit on the flight deck when the fateful bomb exploded.
Yes. Iizuka's account is the same as Furuta's except that Iizuka is in his plane and Furuta is not.
 Furuta says he was inside the ship just after the loading of the bomb in the hangar when the fateful bomb exploded.
Very curious differences between that and what Furuta told Werneth. Here, from Beyond Pearl Harbor, pg23-24 (bolding is mine)

...Nagumo and his staff thought that the planes must be coming from an enemy carrier, so he ordered us to prepare our airplanes for the next strike. Because I was the senior pilot, I told the younger airmen to go to the hanger and help ready the airplanes. They did this, and finished loading the bombs and torpedoes on the aircraft. The mechanics then poured fuel into them and took them to the deck. We were to take off shortly after this, and when we finished working on the airplanes, it was very hot....I...went outside to cool off.

Bolded parts - Furuta is stating the arming and fueling is already completed, the mechanics "took them to the deck", meaning, Furuta's Val is spotted on the flight deck before Kaga is hit.

"...After seeing <the attack on Kaga>... I thought it was best to urinate because I probably would be flying another mission very shortly....

A note on your version of this sentence, which is that your version not only does not make sense, it violates the known rules for spotting and warming aircraft to get around the obvious problem. If Furuta's Val was still in the hanger, then it would take at least 30 minutes to spot and warm the aircraft. He will have had no need to urinate at that exact moment. He is watching a shocking spectacle - the bombing of Kaga. He breaks away from this to pee. This makes no sense if he's 30 minutes from take off. The only way Furuta needs to hit the head immediately is if his Val is already on the flight deck.

Furuta goes on to describe damage control efforts,

"I felt that this was a very bad situation, because at that time our airpolanes were fueled up and loaded with ammunition. The bombs created a big fire, and we couldn't do anything about it. Inside our hanger our bombs blew up one after another, so it became a blazing cauldron.

Bombs hitting the ship created a big fire with the fueled and armed planes, while bombs in the hanger blew up. No mention of aircraft in the hanger. If fully fueled aircraft were in the hangers, they'd have chain detonated just like they did on Kaga, and shredded the entire hanger assembly such that nothing would be left on the wreck. The aircraft are a big fire on the flight deck, the bombs are blowing up in the hanger.


"I ended up going to the flight deck because I was ordered to put out a fire. ....We were concerned about the fire reaching the room where the ammunition was stored. If the fire spread there our carrier would be split into two parts. ...as I mentioned, before, the ammunition in the hanger continued to blow up one after the other. ...so we just gave up trying to put out the blaze..."


Why would Furuta be fighting fires on the flight deck unless there was a deck park there? Furuta is trying to prevent a fire on the flight deck getting down to the ammunition storage, meaning that the fire on the flight deck was worse than the fire in the hangers. What is there to burn on the flight deck other than aircraft? Also note again, he says that it's bombs going off in the hanger. No aircraft, just bombs.
Thank you for all the responses. I would like to confirm the basic matter.
(1) Do you think that Furuta's recollections that you show this time are more accurate than the interview that I showed? So he was on board Val on the flight deck at the fatal bomb exploded.
(2) That's why you think Iizuka's recollection is also correct because it says the same thing.
(3) That's why Iizuka was on board the Akagi. So Akagi 飛行隊行動調書 which does not list him is incorrect. It was restored later having mistakes.
(4) As Iizuka and Furuta say, airplanes of the 2nd wave attack group were detonated on the flight deck, not in the hangar.
Can I generally assume that you are thinking as above?

fontessa

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Rob Stuart » 22 Sep 2023 23:10

glenn239 wrote:
22 Sep 2023 20:35
Very curious differences between that and what Furuta told Werneth. Here, from Beyond Pearl Harbor, pg23-24 (bolding is mine)

...Nagumo and his staff thought that the planes must be coming from an enemy carrier, so he ordered us to prepare our airplanes for the next strike. Because I was the senior pilot, I told the younger airmen to go to the hanger and help ready the airplanes. They did this, and finished loading the bombs and torpedoes on the aircraft. The mechanics then poured fuel into them and took them to the deck. We were to take off shortly after this, and when we finished working on the airplanes, it was very hot....I...went outside to cool off.

Bolded parts - Furuta is stating the arming and fueling is already completed, the mechanics "took them to the deck", meaning, Furuta's Val is spotted on the flight deck before Kaga is hit.

"...After seeing <the attack on Kaga>... I thought it was best to urinate because I probably would be flying another mission very shortly....

A note on your version of this sentence, which is that your version not only does not make sense, it violates the known rules for spotting and warming aircraft to get around the obvious problem. If Furuta's Val was still in the hanger, then it would take at least 30 minutes to spot and warm the aircraft. He will have had no need to urinate at that exact moment. He is watching a shocking spectacle - the bombing of Kaga. He breaks away from this to pee. This makes no sense if he's 30 minutes from take off. The only way Furuta needs to hit the head immediately is if his Val is already on the flight deck.
So you're saying that the timing of Furata's urination proves that he was right to say in the account he gave Werneth that Akagi's Vals were already spotted and wrong to say during the NHK interview that they weren't? Christ, talk about clutching at straws! Furata was born in 1914, so he was 95 when interviewed by NHK and only slightly younger when interviewed by Werneth, and he was discussing events which transpired more than 60 years before. To argue that the recollections of a man that old concerning events so long in the past must be correct if he had no motive to lie, when there is ample evidence from more reliable sources that he's wrong, simply shows that you have no ability to assess the relative merits of historical sources. What's you next argument going to be, that Hitler escaped to Argentina because a 95 year old former u-boat cook said his sub took him there?

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 23 Sep 2023 16:16

fontessa wrote:
22 Sep 2023 21:47
Thank you for all the responses. I would like to confirm the basic matter.
And I would like you to confirm that you agree or disagree that the three Akagi fighter pilots I named are the most likely 3 candidates for the escort mission. Also, to answer the inquiry on the A7A pilot "Tadao" that does not appear in the fighter roster. Whose name is it written in the Japanese records? Is it some new pilot named Tadao, or is it a misprint for another pilot, and if so, which one?
(1) Do you think that Furuta's recollections that you show this time are more accurate than the interview that I showed? So he was on board Val on the flight deck at the fatal bomb exploded.
The interview in Beyond Pearl Harbor was conducted by Ron Wernerth. Who conducted the interview that you posted?
(2) That's why you think Iizuka's recollection is also correct because it says the same thing.
I was extremely puzzled by your claim that Furuta had to urinate because he had to take off immediately, when you know that if Furuta's Val was in the hanger that even if fully armed and fueled Furuta would have 30 minutes before he'd have to be in his plane to fly. Without further references to fantastical claims of Japanese spot times can you explain why Furuta would have to pee immediately if he does not have to fly for 30 minutes? That detail in your Furuta account only makes sense if Furuta's Val is already on the flight deck.
(3) That's why Iizuka was on board the Akagi. So Akagi 飛行隊行動調書 which does not list him is incorrect. It was restored later having mistakes.
Yes, that the reason why Iizuka said he was with Akagi and the records do not is because the ship was sunk in a sea of catastrophic fires and this caused errors in the records. Have you not seen the pictures of the Akagi's bridge? It's ruined, it was in shambles and flames shortly after the attack. Nagumo's staff had to evacuate by a rope, the fires that gutted the bridge swept in so fast, it was that bad.

If you think Iizuka was transferred to USA air base before Iizuka says, then feel free to post the USA records proving your point.
Last edited by glenn239 on 23 Sep 2023 16:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 23 Sep 2023 16:33

Rob Stuart wrote:
22 Sep 2023 23:10
So you're saying that the timing of Furata's urination proves that he was right to say in the account he gave Werneth that Akagi's Vals were already spotted and wrong to say during the NHK interview that they weren't? Christ, talk about clutching at straws! Furata was born in 1914, so he was 95 when interviewed by NHK and only slightly younger when interviewed by Werneth....
As above. Who is this "NHK"? Who is that exactly, who are the historians that are responsible for that interview?

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Rob Stuart » 23 Sep 2023 17:39

glenn239 wrote:
23 Sep 2023 16:33
Rob Stuart wrote:
22 Sep 2023 23:10
So you're saying that the timing of Furata's urination proves that he was right to say in the account he gave Werneth that Akagi's Vals were already spotted and wrong to say during the NHK interview that they weren't? Christ, talk about clutching at straws! Furata was born in 1914, so he was 95 when interviewed by NHK and only slightly younger when interviewed by Werneth....
As above.
So you're sticking to your view that (1) Furata's recollection of when he peed is correct and that (2) when he peed supports the account he gave which you like and disproves his statement in the account he gave which you don't like that the Vals were still in the hangars? Why do you have so much faith in the memory of a 95 year old man describing events which happened 60 years earlier, especially when his two accounts are contradictory?

Who is this "NHK"?
Why do you have to ask? There is this thing called Google, and a quick search brings up multiple hits. It is the Japan Broadcasting Corporation, i.e., Japan's public broadcaster, so it's their equivalent of the BBC or CBC.

... who are the historians that are responsible for that interview?
It doesn't matter. This is not a book with edited or summarized text. It's an oral interview. Furata spoke at length and fontessa has provided a translation of his words. The interviewer may have been just a typical journalist who simply asked him to relate his experiences during the war.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 23 Sep 2023 20:23

fontessa wrote:
22 Sep 2023 21:47
As Iizuka and Furuta say, airplanes of the 2nd wave attack group were detonated on the flight deck, not in the hangar.
Can I generally assume that you are thinking as above.
No.

Let's go into more detail, since the matter is far more complicated than this, and you seem genuinely interested. Perhaps you did check the Akagi fighter roster and realized both that what I say checks, as well as that no one in the world other than I seems to have bothered to do the exercise.

Back in 2005 the book Shattered Sword was published. I read it 2005 or 2006, and found it absolutely fantastic. I'd not paid much attention to detailed histories like that beforehand, and I was blown away by the depth of the narrative. That being said, there were elements of it that I was not sold on then and am not sold on now. We are talking currently about historical figures and their capacity to lie, in this case Iizuka, and in that case Fuchida. My doctrine, to put it bluntly, is that it is too easy for historians to say this or that person is lying in order to smooth over a difficulty in their pet theory or narrative. This is a powerful tool which should be used as sparingly as possible, because if abused the reason is that the author is no longer writing history, they are drafting a bad a movie script in which characters act to advance the plot, not because of their character's core motivations. Conversely, if a way can be found to reconcile the historical narrative to as few lies as possible, chances are this version is true. Yet, often historical figures do lie, so when it is decided there was a lie, there must be a coherent reason given for that person to have lied. In the case of Iizuka, your case fails the test. You have provided no reason whatsoever to give Iizuka a motive to lie. In the case of Fuchida, your case also fails the test. You stated a motive for Fuchida that is factually incorrect; had the two pages containing the 'Five Minutes' been removed from his Midway book entirely, the conclusions Fuchida reached and the message he was trying to convey would not have been altered one iota.

Take for example the matter of Fuchida's wounding. Fuchida gave two accounts of this. In the first he was on the bridge and was injured coming down a rope due to a nearby explosion. In the second version - which he only conveyed decades later- he was wounded on the flight deck by the blast of the bomb hit throwing him across the deck. One of these stories is true, the other is not. I concluded the second version is true, the first is false. The reason why I reached this outcome is that Fuchida had a motive for covering up the manner of his wounding; for a Japanese warrior, it was humiliating. I could not see any motive for Fuchida to say he was thrown across the deck wearing a flimsy hospital gown if the first version was true.

So with Shattered Sword, I was unimpressed with the constant yattering in the narrative about Fuchida, (most or all of it provoked by Fuchida getting between the authors and the conclusions they wanted to reach), and took it for compensating weakness in the battle narrative. Back in those days, (2008-2012) Parshall, Tully, and a bunch of others including myself posted over on Combined Fleet. In discussions with the authors, Tony Tully said that in order to start to believe much of anything Fuchida had said, he'd have to see a credible explanation for the Five Minutes. The case there being that Best bombed the Akagi and Best didn't see aircraft on Akagi's deck.

So around 2015 I took a hard look at the Five Minutes for the first time, but I did something that AFAIK no one has ever done. I assumed that Fuchida's account is true and then shaped the evidence around that. What emerged is a second version of the attack that fits well with the evidence, but is different in key details from the Shattered Sword version. The Coles notes narrative of the "Fuchida-centric" account is that around 0930 Kaga started to fall behind Akagi in strike preparations, and since VT-6's attack was still ongoing at 1015, this gap just widened over time. Akagi did not wait in her strike preparations for Kaga because this would have been utter lunacy; Kaga was under attack so it made no sense to wait for a carrier that might be knocked out of the battle at any moment. So at 1023 when Kaga is hit, the Japanese carriers are not in unison for strike preps according to doctrine, the Kaga has not even begun to spot, Akagi is well advanced, Soryu is maybe just starting, Hiryu I have no idea.

There is an old controversy in the American records. English speaking historians will tell you it was resolved suitably, but it never was. The controversy is that both Yorktown and Enterprise claimed the Akagi. Shattered Sword assumes that Richard Best bombed the Akagi, but when using the doctrine of "Fuchida is right" on this point, I was compelled to switch the bombing of Akagi to Leslie's Yorktown group. The reason is that VB-3's combat report described bombing a carrier with aircraft all over the flight deck. Neither VS-6 (Kaga) nor VB-6 described that. Applying that conclusion to the Shattered Sword reconstruction I noticed several interesting things. First, their reconstruction appeared to be an iteration of a previous one in Glorious Page in Our History in which certain aspects were left the same and others, (the location of Soryu, Hiryu, and the Yorktown air group approach track) were pushed to the east. Akagi's bomb position, which I was now VERY interested in, had been pushed considerably west in Shattered Sword from its position as shown in the Nagumo Report. (SS never even mentions that Akagi's bomb position is marked in the Nagumo Report, so when I saw it marked on the map, I was absolutely stunned that they would omit that information).

The sum effect was that Shattered Sword is pushing Akagi west, Soryu east, and the Yorktowners on a looping northern approach, all to the apparent but unstated purpose of keeping Leslie as far from Akagi as possible, which otherwise he will run right over. So, using my method, I assumed the Akagi Nagumo Report bomb position was more accurate and VB-3 took a more direct approach. This puts Leslie right over Akagi. I then turned to Best's report and noticed that he was heavily distracted by a squadron oxygen emergency inbound and by his own admission lost situational awareness. Whereas McClusky saw all four IJN carriers before attacking, and Leslie saw three, (Akagi, Hiryu, and probably Kaga), Best only saw two before pushing over for his attack. One was Kaga, the other was either Soryu or Akagi.

So, suddenly, the device of assuming Fuchida's account is true is providing an utterly fascinating theory regarding the dispute between Best and McClusky that emerged after the war. There was some sort of mixup where McClusky assigned Best to bomb Akagi (which McClusky could see), and Best rejecting that order and lining up on the Kaga. Why would Best reject orders to bomb a carrier a few miles to his starboard side? Applying the doctrine I was using, the reason was that Best never saw the Akagi, so when McClusky ordered him to bomb the "right hand" Akagi to McClusky's right, Best thought McClusky meant the "far" carrier, which was Soryu. Because Best did not understand where Akagi was, he interpreted the order to mean a non-doctrinal attack, (in the case Best saw, McClusky would attack Soryu the far target). When McClusky unexpectedly dived on Kaga, Best moved on to Soryu and bombed it.

Under this theory, the reason why Best was not forthcoming about the mixup is that the near debacle was entirely his fault. Lord thought that both Leslie and Best wanted to claim the 'big' carrier. I think that Best's actual motive was not to admit that he'd totally screwed up and had failed to understand McClusky's instructions.

All of this just fell out the historical accounts by making one assumption - that the Fuchida version is true. The only way that Fuchida's claim of Akagi about to launch resolves the McClusky-Best-Leslie controversy is if Fuchida was being truthful in the account. So, when you ask if I find it important whether Furuta was in his Val about to take off or not, the answer is no. Or, if I care whether planes were still warming up or starting to take off. No, I do not care. The only thing I care about is that Akagi had enough aircraft on her deck that Leslie of Yorktown, and not Best of Enterprise, must have bombed the Akagi. If Leslie bombed the Yorktown, then Best bombed the Soryu and the narrative I outlined above, which no one on Earth had worked out until I did it, is what actually happened with the American attack.

cstunts
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by cstunts » 24 Sep 2023 00:51

S.S.'s use of the Fuchida fiction did not stem from the authors of S.S. alone. For the record it should be noted that it was the post-war Japanese that first debunked Fuchida and still do.

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 24 Sep 2023 03:35

glenn239 wrote:
23 Sep 2023 16:16
(3) That's why Iizuka was on board the Akagi. So Akagi 飛行隊行動調書 which does not list him is incorrect. It was restored later having mistakes.
Yes, that the reason why Iizuka said he was with Akagi and the records do not is because the ship was sunk in a sea of catastrophic fires and this caused errors in the records. Have you not seen the pictures of the Akagi's bridge? It's ruined, it was in shambles and flames shortly after the attack. Nagumo's staff had to evacuate by a rope, the fires that gutted the bridge swept in so fast, it was that bad.
Based on my past experience, I feel that you only see what you want. Let me show you an example, Akagi 飛行機隊行動調書. I believe this is an original. But you keep insisting that this Akagi’s is not an original. I have posted many times based on Akagi’s. If Akagi’s is different from the original, they lose their legitimacy. That's why I asked many times why you claim that it is a restored list. Your latest answer is shown above. To summarize, “The original was lost due to the confusion on the bridge when Akagi sunk. ”This is just your imagination, and cannot be the basis of the claim against Akagi’s. I've asked you the difference between Akagi and Kaga 飛行機隊行動調書s. Akagi’s is on the top and Kaga’s is below it. As you know, Kaga lost her 飛行機隊行動調書 when her bridge was bombed. So Kaga’s is a restored list. I think everyone will notice that Kaga’s looks prettier, and Akagi’s seems more worn out, and dirty. When we restore something, we use new paper. We don't make it dirty like Akagi’s. But you seem different. More importantly, Akagi’s shows detailed information, as if it is the original. How was all this detailed information got? Anyway, I want you to answer my questions now.
Below is the Akagi flight crew who was added to Akagi Val Unit for Midway Operation. You say someone is a fake of Iizuka. One more question, when you look at the other parts of Akagi 飛行機隊行動調書, don't you think, oh, is this guy fake?
 SFPO Nagaoseki Heiichi 長小関平一
 LTJG Motoyama Shigeyuki 本山泰之 KIA on 24 August 1942
 FPO1 Yamada Misaku 山田己作
 FPO2 Matsuo Tsutomu 松尾勉
 FPO2 Kato Masaya 加藤政也
 FPO3 Onuma Chozaburo 大沼長三郎
 FPO1 Kawano Takushi 河野卓士
 FPO3 Hasegawa Kikunisuke 長谷川菊之助
 ENS Sato Chiaki 斉藤千秋
 FPO2 Horie Kazuhisa 堀江一光

赤城戦闘機隊 行動調書 0.jpg
加賀 行動調書 00.jpg


I don't think everything Iizuka says is correct. The example is;
Below photo is lizuka's AI-208. It looks like the body was straight, a little crooked?
The bottom photo was pulled from his reminiscences. I don't know if there is such a custom in Europe and the United States, but in Japan, a black frame is added to photos of the deceased. It appeals "My AI-208 is dead!"
Iizuka said;
A barricade had to be set up on deck to prevent the plane that was landing from running into the plane in front of it. In my case, the wing hit this barricade, and the body folded up, doglegged, at the spot where the hinomaru is painted. Both KAWAI and I got out without a scratch, but our plane was no longer usable. The fuselage must have also taken some bullet hits and it had weakened the part where the bullets had entered. This plane, nevertheless, was taken back to Iwakuni in as-is condition.
Eugen said in #55;
Veterans sometimes say a lot of interesting things...

赤城 AI-208.jpg
赤城 AI-208C.jpg

fontessa
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