IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

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Eugen Pinak
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Eugen Pinak » 28 Sep 2023 09:55

fontessa wrote:
28 Sep 2023 09:06
Eugen Pinak wrote:
28 Sep 2023 08:23
fontessa wrote:
27 Sep 2023 16:09
Thanks Rob and Eugen. In the past, perhaps only some senior officers had the opportunity to talk about Midway. However, due to the development of IT and other technologies, NCOs, who were silent in the past, are now talking about Midway, denying the "Five Minutes of Destiny'' story.
That's interesting. Was it really so bad for NCOs and sailors to voice their memories before development of the internet? I see, that IIzuka published his memoirs in bikers' magazine. But why it was so hard for them to publish? Because of their low status?
Well, I might have said too much. No problem, I'll take it down for now.

fontessa
It's your right, of course.
But I don't think it's something not worth discussing. The problem of availability of officers' accounts versus other ranks' accounts existed not only in Japan. In Russia and USSR there is a similar problem of rarity of other ranks' wartime accounts.

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 28 Sep 2023 12:07

Eugen Pinak wrote:
28 Sep 2023 09:55
fontessa wrote:
28 Sep 2023 09:06
Eugen Pinak wrote:
28 Sep 2023 08:23
fontessa wrote:
27 Sep 2023 16:09
Thanks Rob and Eugen. In the past, perhaps only some senior officers had the opportunity to talk about Midway. However, due to the development of IT and other technologies, NCOs, who were silent in the past, are now talking about Midway, denying the "Five Minutes of Destiny'' story.
That's interesting. Was it really so bad for NCOs and sailors to voice their memories before development of the internet? I see, that IIzuka published his memoirs in bikers' magazine. But why it was so hard for them to publish? Because of their low status?
Well, I might have said too much. No problem, I'll take it down for now.

fontessa
It's your right, of course.
But I don't think it's something not worth discussing. The problem of availability of officers' accounts versus other ranks' accounts existed not only in Japan. In Russia and USSR there is a similar problem of rarity of other ranks' wartime accounts.
Understood, thanks.

fontessa

glenn239
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 29 Sep 2023 18:03

fontessa wrote:
27 Sep 2023 08:01
It's true that Akagi sank, but it is just your speculation that Akagi 飛行機隊行動調書 sank with her. No matter how confused her bridge was, there's a possibility that someone brought it up. I can't disprove your claim, and you also can't disprove mine either. In Japan, this kind of inconclusive argument is called 水掛け論 futile controversy.
I am not saying your theory must be wrong. I am saying there are two possible explanations for the the fact that Akagi's flight records and Iizuka's recollections do not line up. One is that Iizuka lied and the other is that Akagi's flight records contain errors. It is not a "futile" controversy, it is simply one of many issues that the study of the Akagi's debris field will resolve. Specifically, if there are no D3A1's in Akagi's debris field then Iizuka's account must be false. Conversely, if there are Vals in the debris field, then Iizuka's account is true. I've got no idea when a survey will find the time to hunt back from Akagi's wreck to her bombing location, but I'm thinking maybe within 10 years? Either way, until that result is in, I'm not simply going to pick between the two possibilities.

glenn239
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 29 Sep 2023 18:20

fontessa wrote:
25 Sep 2023 23:03
You often require me to "clarify the names of the three pilots'', but the only way to do that is to use the Akagi's 飛行機隊行動調書 which you decided "wrong". Don't you notice your own contradictions? The landing time may be wrong. The take-off time may be wrong. The landing time may be wrong. The pilot's name may also be wrong. and and and...
I'm asking you to use the flight records as they exist to pick the three escort pilots you think were earmarked for the escort mission. I did it and I got a list of three pilots that popped out. It was not hard. It did not take long. Do you think Kusaka was going to wait until 1030 and then pick three random names out of a hat? Do you think Kusaka would assign dead pilots to the mission? Do you think pilots that were currently airborne at 1025 fighting CAP battles would be assigned the mission? Do you think pilots that had been fighting all morning and just landed at 1010 would be assigned the mission? Three names please.

I've been hearing since 2006 that these fighter records are the key to the battle, but as soon as the records are being used for a purpose that you don't like, suddenly no one wants to take a look at the fighter records.

glenn239
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 29 Sep 2023 18:22

Rob Stuart wrote:
26 Sep 2023 06:18
I remember 9/11 fairly well, but I'm only 65 and that was only 22 years ago. When I'm 95 and 9/11 is 52 years in the past, I'm not at all sure that I'll be able to answer question about 9/11 that I can answer now.
My grandfather fought in the RCAF in Britain in WW2 (non-combat) and recalled in detail key incidences in his service well into his 90's, and even after he turned 100.

glenn239
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 29 Sep 2023 18:50

fontessa wrote:
27 Sep 2023 17:03
They match the four people who Weiyan said joined in April or May of 1942. It means that Iizuka was not on board Akagi at Midway and lied in his memoirs as Eugen and I have pointed out.
Iizuka's account does not mention him leaving Akagi between March and Midway. He therefore would not be on any list of crewmen joining the squadron in April or May.
Moreover, glenn239's claim is baseless bullshit. I'm glad that his insults towards IJN are dismissed.
Not sure how things run in Japan, but over here in Canada a record error is not an "insult" towards our navy or any institution for that matter. Calling someone a liar, on the other hand....

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 30 Sep 2023 00:33

fontessa wrote:
27 Sep 2023 17:03
They match the four people who Weiyan said joined in April or May of 1942. It means that Iizuka was not on board Akagi at Midway and lied in his memoirs as Eugen and I have pointed out. Moreover, glenn239's claim is baseless bullshit. I'm glad that his insults towards IJN are dismissed.

fontessa
I have said that you "only see what you want". I don't see any constructive significance in discussion with you. Therefore, I have no desire to have any further discussion with you. I think I already have said so. . .

fontessa

Rob Stuart
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Rob Stuart » 30 Sep 2023 07:37

glenn239 wrote:
29 Sep 2023 18:22
Rob Stuart wrote:
26 Sep 2023 06:18
I remember 9/11 fairly well, but I'm only 65 and that was only 22 years ago. When I'm 95 and 9/11 is 52 years in the past, I'm not at all sure that I'll be able to answer question about 9/11 that I can answer now.
My grandfather fought in the RCAF in Britain in WW2 (non-combat) and recalled in detail key incidences in his service well into his 90's, and even after he turned 100.
First of all, if your grandfather was was in a non-combat role, then he did not fight with the RCAF in Britain. Presumably you meant to say "served" rather than "fought".

Second, how do you know all his recollections were correct? Some people in their 90s do have accurate memories of things which happened in their 20s, but many get key details wrong. If your grandfather claimed, for example, to have served at 6 Group Headquarters when his service records have him serving at the HQ of a RCAF station in the UK, then it's highly probable that he did not serve at 6 Group Headquarters.

Rob Stuart
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Rob Stuart » 30 Sep 2023 07:44

glenn239 wrote:
29 Sep 2023 18:03
fontessa wrote:
27 Sep 2023 08:01
It's true that Akagi sank, but it is just your speculation that Akagi 飛行機隊行動調書 sank with her. No matter how confused her bridge was, there's a possibility that someone brought it up. I can't disprove your claim, and you also can't disprove mine either. In Japan, this kind of inconclusive argument is called 水掛け論 futile controversy.
I am not saying your theory must be wrong. I am saying there are two possible explanations for the the fact that Akagi's flight records and Iizuka's recollections do not line up. One is that Iizuka lied and the other is that Akagi's flight records contain errors. [...]
No, there are three possibilities:

1. Two different Japanese documents both incorrectly indicate that Iizuka was not aboard Akagi during MI
2. Iizuka lied
3. Iizuka did not lie but his recollections were mistaken, which seems the most likely explanation

Eugen Pinak
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Eugen Pinak » 02 Oct 2023 15:11

glenn239 wrote:
29 Sep 2023 18:50
fontessa wrote:
27 Sep 2023 17:03
They match the four people who Weiyan said joined in April or May of 1942. It means that Iizuka was not on board Akagi at Midway and lied in his memoirs as Eugen and I have pointed out.
Iizuka's account does not mention him leaving Akagi between March and Midway. He therefore would not be on any list of crewmen joining the squadron in April or May.
Actually, there is an account in this very topic, that mentions it: viewtopic.php?p=2491513#p2491513
(here is Japanese original: https://gogotamu2019.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-30201.html)
So yes, there is another confirmation Iizuka caimm he was aboard "Akagi" at Midway is not correct.

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 20 Oct 2023 22:53

Eugen Pinak wrote:
02 Oct 2023 15:11
glenn239 wrote:
29 Sep 2023 18:50
fontessa wrote:
27 Sep 2023 17:03
They match the four people who Weiyan said joined in April or May of 1942. It means that Iizuka was not on board Akagi at Midway and lied in his memoirs as Eugen and I have pointed out.
Iizuka's account does not mention him leaving Akagi between March and Midway. He therefore would not be on any list of crewmen joining the squadron in April or May.
Actually, there is an account in this very topic, that mentions it: viewtopic.php?p=2491513#p2491513
(here is Japanese original: https://gogotamu2019.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-30201.html)
So yes, there is another confirmation Iizuka caimm he was aboard "Akagi" at Midway is not correct.
This is part of the feature article of the “80th Anniversary Exhibition since the Attack on Pearl Harbor'' held at the Tsukuba Naval Air Croup Memorial Museum from December 1921 to March 1922. The source was interviews with Iizuka's acquaintances in other newspapers, probably after Iizuka's death. No one had heard that Iizuka had participated in the Midway campaign.


Rob Stuart wrote:
22 Sep 2023 10:01
glenn239 wrote:
22 Sep 2023 00:45
Both Furuta and Iizuka stated that their aircraft were on the flight deck when Akagi was bombed, not in the hanger.
According to info cited by fontessa in his latest post, Furata stated in 2009-2010 that he helped to re-arm the aircraft in the hangars, and that when that was completed he went out on to the gangway, apparently one located at hangar deck level, and saw Kaga being attacked. He then went to the heads for a pee and was still below deck when Akagi was hit. He does not state that his aircraft was on the flight deck when Akagi was attacked. Indeed, if he was below deck at 1025 then there was no way that his D3A was on the flight deck and about to take off behind the three Zeros assigned to escort the strike, the first of which was supposedly speeding down the runway at that moment.
I agree with you. And I believe the aircraft was Kate, not Val.
Because I think;
(1) The Midway operation baseline was;
1st wave (Land attack):
 Akagi, Kaga: Val (non-armour-piercing 250kg bomb) x 18 + Zero x 9
 Soryu, Hiryu: Kate (non-armour-piercing 800kg bomb) x 18 + Zero x 9
2nd wave (Anti-ship attack):
 Akagi: Kaga: Kate (equipped with 800kg torpedoes) x 18 + Zero x 9
 Sryu, Hiryu: Val (equipped with 250kg armor-piercing bomb) x 18 + Zero x 9
Given Nagumo's personality, I don't think Nagumo would dare to add Vals to Akagi and Kaga’s 2nd wave attack.
(2) More important;
It was very difficult to do a Kate armament change from an 800kg bomb to an 800kg torpedo. It requires several maintenance crews and time over 2 houers. So sometimes the flight crew helped them. Therefore, sending precious maintenance crews to Val's armor-piercing bomb equipment will delay Kate's essentially needed re-equipment. It is unthinkable to re-arm Val's bombs which would delay Kate's most important conversion to torpedoes. I think Furuta and his colleagues helped Kate’s re-equipment.

Time Taken to Kate Re-equipment
The same bomb-torpedo change problem as Midway had occurred during the Ceylon campaign. After the campaign, the 1st Air Fleet measured various working times using Hiryu which moved straight at a constant speed. The below table shows the work time required to change the weapons of one Squadron (18 Kates). These were just a guideline in ideal conditions.
 800kg Air-launch torpedo → 2 250kg bombs: 2. 0 hours
 800kg Air-launch torpedo → 800kg Non-armor-piercing bomb: 1.5 hours
 800kg Air-launch torpedo → 800kg Armor-piercing bomb: 2.5 hours
 2 250kg bombs → 800kg Air-launch torpedo: 2. 0 hours
 800kg Non-armor-piercing bomb → 800kg Air-launch torpedo: 2. 0 hours
 800kg Armor-piercing bomb → 800kg Air-launch torpedo: 1.5 hours

97式艦攻 魚雷装着 1.jpg

97式艦攻 魚雷装着 2.jpg

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Eugen Pinak
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Eugen Pinak » 24 Oct 2023 18:22

Fontessa - thank you you once again for the detailed explanation.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by JOVE23 » 09 Nov 2023 09:19

Wow, this is some of the most in depth research I've seen in English on Japanese naval aviation. As someone who dabbles in 3d modeling of aircraft, I'm really interested in reading all of this great info. I have some high resolution photos of the Middle Loch Val, which I believe is AI-251? I will post them if there's interest.

I have a question for fontessa, specifically, as well. Is there any accurate positional data for the Kido Butai on their return trip from Pearl Harbor?

I ask because of Mori ditching his Kate after the attack - if Soryu's position at the time of the recovery of aircraft can be narrowed down, maybe it would be possible for the MV Petrel or MV Nautilus to locate Mori's Kate on the sea floor.

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 09 Nov 2023 14:04

JOVE23 wrote:
09 Nov 2023 09:19
I have some high resolution photos of the Middle Loch Val, which I believe is AI-251? I will post them if there's interest.
Yes, interested. AI-251 was the airplane of FPO1 Yoshida Kiyoto who may have been the platoon reader of the 21st platoon consisting of AI-251, AI-202, and AI-203.

JOVE23 wrote:
09 Nov 2023 09:19
I have a question for fontessa, specifically, as well. Is there any accurate positional data for the Kido Butai on their return trip from Pearl Harbor?

I ask because of Mori ditching his Kate after the attack - if Soryu's position at the time of the recovery of aircraft can be narrowed down, maybe it would be possible for the MV Petrel or MV Nautilus to locate Mori's Kate on the sea floor.
I found the map shown below. According to the Japanese Wiki, 18 Zero. 29 Val, and 2 Kate attacked Wake Island on December, 21st. Two Kate were shot down and the one was FPO1 Kanai Shozo's Val. So Mori was the other? I think Senshi Socho No.10 "Hawaii Operations" says more details about the Kake attacking there. But unfortunately, the NIDS server is under maintenance now. So we can't read the related Senshi Soho on the web.

真珠湾 航路.jpg

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Vicious
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Vicious » 22 Nov 2023 02:03

Hello Fontessa,

I'm new on this site and am impressed by many of your contributions. Specifically here which aircraft had what tail code, crew and where if applicable was it shot down and how so on 07DEC41.

Where did you get such details? The data I have pretty much matched what you have, yet you had more "known" tail codes/crews/etc. than my sources have turned up. There may be a couple of minor disagreements here & there only.

Was "Senshi Socho" this detailed? I haven't been privy to any significant translations of its volumes. Nor am I aware of any other source so detailed to "list" such a large amount of such information.

Thanks in advance!

Vicious

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