Let Soviet Era War Criminal be brought for trial

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wildboar
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Let Soviet Era War Criminal be brought for trial

Post by wildboar » 31 Aug 2003 17:34

[split from the thread "SS guard facing extradition from Canada to Italy"]


Why only Nazi Criminal only??
Why not Soviet Era War-Criminals made to stand up trial for atrocities commited against german civilians .
Why double standards??
Let Soviet Era War Criminal be brought for trial.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Re: Let Soviet Era War Criminal be brought for trial

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 31 Aug 2003 18:52

wildboar wrote:[split from the thread "SS guard facing extradition from Canada to Italy"]


Why only Nazi Criminal only??
Why not Soviet Era War-Criminals made to stand up trial for atrocities commited against german civilians .
Why double standards??
Let Soviet Era War Criminal be brought for trial.
is it your contention that no Soviet personnel was punished for the crimes against German civilians?

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Post by David Thompson » 31 Aug 2003 20:21

wildboar -- You said:
"Why only Nazi Criminal only??
Why not Soviet Era War-Criminals made to stand up trial for atrocities commited against german civilians .
Why double standards??
Let Soviet Era War Criminal be brought for trial."
Please provide some names of living persons who allegedly committed war crimes while serving under the former Soviet regime and a little proof of their supposed misdeeds before you start talking about double standards. Otherwise the readers are only getting another gust of wind from our already wind-swept portion of the forum.

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Wulpe
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Post by Wulpe » 01 Sep 2003 12:23

Here is an example:
The Independent
Dec 28 1998

Israel protects concentration camp boss

By Adam LeBor Central Europe Correspondent

An extradition request by Polish authorities for an
alleged former commander of a Stalinist-era detention
camp now living in Tel Aviv has been rejected by Israel.

Salomon Morel is wanted by the prosecutor's office in
the southern Polish city of Katowice. He is charged with
crimes against humanity while he was commander of the
Swietochlowice camp where more than 3,000 prisoners,
mainly Germans, but also including several citizens of
allied and neutral nations, were held during 1945.

A reply sent to the Polish Justice Ministry from Israeli
authorities said that Israel would not extradite Mr Morel.
Officials said the crimes with which he is charged are not
perceived in Israel as genocide, and so are subject to
the statute of limitations, the Polish news agency PAP
reported.

The demand by Polish authorities for Mr Morel's
extradition is the second attempt this month to bring
back former Communist officials. The Polish military
prosecutor in Warsaw recently issued an arrest warrant
for Helena Brus, formerly Wolinska, now married to an
Oxford don.

During the 1950s Ms Wolinska worked as a military
prosecutor in Warsaw, issuing arrest warrants. Many of
those detained under her orders were later hanged. Both
Mr Morel and Mrs Brus are Jewish.

Swietochlowice was set up by the Soviet NKVD -
forerunner of the KGB - after the Red Army's liberation
of southern Poland. The camp was later handed over to
the Polish secret service, the notorious UB.

Stalin's policy was to put Jews in charge of camps. Their
experiences during the Nazi Holocaust would mean that
Germans and Poles held there could expect little mercy.
More than half of the 3,000 prisoners at Swietochlowice
were murdered or died there, according to PAP.

Dorota Boriczek, a camp survivor, remembers Salomon
Morel as a barbaric and cruel man who, with his
colleagues, was responsible for many killings of inmates.
"I knew Morel in the camp. He was a very brutal man. He
was young then. He would come in at night. We could
hear the cries of the men then. They would beat them
and throw the bodies out of the window," Mrs Boriczek,
now 68 and living in Ludswigberg, Germany, told The
Independent.

"I was taken there when I was 14, with my mother. I still
don't know why we were there and I still want to know.
They told us when we arrived, 'You are here, and you
are here to die, although nobody will shoot you, because
ammunition is too expensive'."

Conditions in the camp were horrific, said Mrs Boriczek,
who has begun a legal process in Katowice to try to find
out why she was sent to the camp.

"There was nothing to eat, a hunger that you cannot
imagine. We were lucky to have a piece of bread once a
day, nothing else, and water. Both my mother and I had
typhus. We were separated and I didn't know she was
alive. I had a high fever and when I opened my eyes, I
was sleeping next to a lady from Switzerland. I slept with
her under one blanket. I was happy that she was dead,
because that meant I could have her blanket."

Mr Morel, born in 1919, lost much of his family in the
Holocaust before joining the partisans, in his case a
Jewish military unit, according to John Sack, the
American author of An Eye for An Eye: The Untold Story
of Jewish Revenge Against Germans in 1945.

In 1995, 50 years after her imprisonment at
Swietochlowice, Mrs Boriczek saw Mr Morel in the
Katowice prosecutor's office. She said she felt more pity
than hatred.

"I hated him all my life and then when I saw him I saw an
old, fat man. I could see he was ill. I would even have
given him my hand. I asked him why he did these crimes.
He told me I was lying and everybody loved him."

Mr Morel refused to speak to The Independent. A man in
Tel Aviv who identified himself as Mr Morel's son said his
father did not talk to journalists.
More:

UCCLA: Israel refuses to extradite alleged war criminal

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Post by David Thompson » 01 Sep 2003 14:45

The Morel and Brus cases have been discussed on prior threads, primarily:

How about . . . Jewish war crimes?
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=23121

and

John Demyanyuk in Sobibor camp
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=19585

Neither case involves a double standard on the part of the government of Poland in the prosecution of Stalinist-era crimes.

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Wulpe
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Post by Wulpe » 01 Sep 2003 18:35

David Thompson wrote:Neither case involves a double standard on the part of the government of Poland in the prosecution of Stalinist-era crimes.
That´s correct, but Wildboar didn´t ask for double standards in Poland. Just "double standards" & "soviet era war criminal".

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Post by Keith Loughmiller » 02 Sep 2003 00:57

David Thompson wrote:wildboar -- You said:
"Why only Nazi Criminal only??
Why not Soviet Era War-Criminals made to stand up trial for atrocities commited against german civilians .
Why double standards??
Let Soviet Era War Criminal be brought for trial."
Please provide some names of living persons who allegedly committed war crimes while serving under the former Soviet regime and a little proof of their supposed misdeeds before you start talking about double standards. Otherwise the readers are only getting another gust of wind from our already wind-swept portion of the forum.
Mr. Thompson,
From what you wrote..I guess you don't believe that the Soviets commited any war crimes????? You surely don't live in such a fantasy world do you?????????? :roll:
Do you have ANY idea what they did to the Latvian people after the war??? Would you like for me to contact my friend who is in charge of the opressed Latvian peoples and get you a nice little list of Soviet criminals that they are looking for???? I will be back in Riga very soon and would be glad to do this.

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Michael Miller
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Blame Soviet Victory in the Great War for the Motherland...

Post by Michael Miller » 02 Sep 2003 01:12

While it's certainly true that 900 Zillion Soviets committed 950 Zillion horrific atrocities, there is one simple fact that made prosecuting them a difficulty...

THE CCCP WON THE WAR.

Basic rule of thumb in these cases- don't lose. If you win, there is no victorious enemy to put you in the dock and string you up like the murdering swine you are.

I applaud any efforts by Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Kazakhstan, Belarus, Georgia, Azerbaidjan, Armenia, etc., etc. to bring Soviet criminals to justice. Unfortunately, liberation from communism came too late in many if not most cases to exact retribution for the crimes of Ivan Q. Kommissar. He's dead and facing justice at the hands of his maker.

Regards,
~ Mike

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Michael Miller
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...

Post by Michael Miller » 02 Sep 2003 01:15

And Keith, don't get all hysterical about Mr. Thompson's points. He's about as objective and fair a human being as I've ever encountered on- or offline. I am sure he is every bit as aware of the trademark NKVD "bullet to the back of the neck" as he is of the SS "Asphyxiation via Zyklon-B". He was only asking for specific examples rather than vague generalities.

An idea- perhaps you could start your own forum about Allied/Soviet "Holocausts & Warcrimes" if you feel this topic does not enjoy enough coverage in our humble venue.

Regards,
~ Mike

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Post by Keith Loughmiller » 02 Sep 2003 01:39

Oh Mr. Miller.....
I am far from hysterical.....trust me...you don't want me upset.
I am simply stating facts as I read them! 8O
I want to thank you for your oh so kind reply though!!! Oh I don't like what you said..so get the f*ck out of here and start your own forum. Ah yes..another legend in his own mind. And how many times have you been to Eastern Europe and what family do you have there that suffered under Soviet opression?????? hummmmm?????????????? I await your "wonderfull" answer!!

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Post by Keith Loughmiller » 02 Sep 2003 01:46

Oh and further more... Latvia didn't give up! We fought till 1957, and there were parts of the Kurland pocket that the "red cowards" would not show there face in. The Soviet army avoided the pocket like the plague.

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Post by Keith Loughmiller » 02 Sep 2003 01:52

And now I remember!!!!!!! why I don't visit this part of the forum anymore!!!
:idea: I refuse to lower my self to your level!!!
I will leave and NEVER come back. :lol: :lol:
Uz Redzesanos!! Visu Labu!!! Ata!!!!!!!!

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 02 Sep 2003 01:59

Wulpe wrote:
David Thompson wrote:Neither case involves a double standard on the part of the government of Poland in the prosecution of Stalinist-era crimes.
That´s correct, but Wildboar didn´t ask for double standards in Poland. Just "double standards" & "soviet era war criminal".
No he asked why no Soviet personal was brought to trail fro crimes against German civilians –and that is untrue –many were –many more were executed without a trail.

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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 02 Sep 2003 02:01

Keith Loughmiller wrote:Oh and further more... Latvia didn't give up! We fought till 1957, and there were parts of the Kurland pocket that the "red cowards" would not show there face in. The Soviet army avoided the pocket like the plague.
last time I checked USSR ceased to be part of USSr only in the early 90s.

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Post by David Thompson » 02 Sep 2003 02:14

Mr. Loughmiller -- You asked:
"From what you wrote..I guess you don't believe that the Soviets commited any war crimes????? You surely don't live in such a fantasy world do you??????????"


I'll try to be as clear as the English language allows. I have been reading about Soviet crimes for forty years. In my experience, there is a great deal of evidence of criminal policies and their effects, but much less evidence and detail in regard to specific allegations.

Wildboar complained about double standards in prosecution. In my opinion, it was not possible to prosecute Soviet criminals until the USSR collapsed about a decade or so ago. Stalin and Beria, who feature prominently in Soviet-era crimes, have been dead for many years. It is rare to see the names of the other perpetrators even mentioned. Of those other names, with the exception of Morel, Bruns, and a handful of others, many died before the Soviet state "withered away."

The worst of the Soviet crimes took place fifty or more years ago. There may be perpetrators still living, but I'd like to know their names and see some specific evidence before I buy into the "double standard" argument. I would like to hear about (1) a specific crime; (2) a living perpetrator, and (3) the evidence linking the perpetrator to the crime. At that point the "double standard" issue can be properly raised.

General allegations, without any names of perpetrators or details of their acts, are a dime a dozen in posts at this section of the forum. The former Soviet regime is the usual target. I believe the readers deserve more than the usual blasts of hot, rhetorical air, and so I'm asking for more. This does not mean that I live in a fantasy world. It does mean that I appreciate researched, factual allegations more than lurid effusions or chanted slogans.

I would appreciate it very much if you contacted your friend who is in charge of the opressed Latvian peoples and got me a nice little list of Soviet criminals that they are looking for, when you get back to Riga very soon. I think the readers here would appreciate your thoughtfulness just as much, if not more, than I would.

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