Holocaust mass graves?

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
comrade seinfeld
Banned
Posts: 23
Joined: 23 Jun 2002 03:47
Location: Australia

Holocaust mass graves?

Post by comrade seinfeld » 24 Jun 2002 06:38

If there was a Holocaust then where are the mass graves in Poland and Nazi-occupied Russia (i.e., the then Soviet Union). I must make it clear that I am not a Holocaust revisionist (or denier, if you like!), but a Holocaust agnostic, so that I am trying to find out the facts in order to reach a conclusive perspective (which I am inclined to think is a Utopian notion, as everyone concerned with it seems to have an ideological agenda!), which is why I would like to ask questions and make comments in this forum. In fact, concerning the above question about mass graves, I sent a message to be posted in this forum yesterday; but, it has not been posted yet, so that I can only assume that there is a technical difficulty, or else you are not interested having anyone who is in any way sceptical concerning the conventional Holocaust narrative posting in this forum -- which would seem strange, as I have seen a fairly broadminded range of opinions posted, which, of course, are either honest questions or comments based on facts. If you do not want me posting in this forum then I would appreciate it if you could indicate this to me, by, say, mailing to my webmail address.

Anyway the point of my question is that, quite apart from assuming that there were gassing and cremations, there were many who were gassed or shot but who could not be cremated (so that the bodies could not be disposed of completely), but were either burned in open air pits, or just buried in graves. This includes both the disposal of bodies in relation to the alleged death camps and the alleged murder mission of the Einsatzgruppen. I have heard of the uncovering of mass graves at Belzec, but, as I understand it, the quantity of bodies uncovered is not consistent with the conventional Holocaust account in terms of the numbers of inmates supposedly involved. Also, I would imagine that if there were any mass graves that could be attributed to the Nazis the communist governments would have been only too eager to point this out to the world; but, as far as I know, there was never been any uncovering of mass graves, which would seem strange in terms of the conventional Holocaust account of the massive number of Nazi victims. Of course, there are many factors to be taken into account in regard to the Holocaust, such as what documentation is available, or eyewitness accounts; but I think it would be useful if there was some concrete evidence in the form of the forensic evidence of mass graves -- perhaps there are reasons that I am not aware of which make this impossible?

Silent
Member
Posts: 4
Joined: 23 Jun 2002 11:46
Location: Germany

Re: Holocaust mass graves?

Post by Silent » 24 Jun 2002 11:11

comrade seinfeld wrote:If there was a Holocaust then where are the mass graves in Poland and Nazi-occupied Russia (i.e., the then Soviet Union). I must make it clear that I am not a Holocaust revisionist (or denier, if you like!), but a Holocaust agnostic, so that I am trying to find out the facts in order to reach a conclusive perspective (which I am inclined to think is a Utopian notion, as everyone concerned with it seems to have an ideological agenda!), which is why I would like to ask questions and make comments in this forum. In fact, concerning the above question about mass graves, I sent a message to be posted in this forum yesterday; but, it has not been posted yet, so that I can only assume that there is a technical difficulty, or else you are not interested having anyone who is in any way sceptical concerning the conventional Holocaust narrative posting in this forum -- which would seem strange, as I have seen a fairly broadminded range of opinions posted, which, of course, are either honest questions or comments based on facts. If you do not want me posting in this forum then I would appreciate it if you could indicate this to me, by, say, mailing to my webmail address.

Anyway the point of my question is that, quite apart from assuming that there were gassing and cremations, there were many who were gassed or shot but who could not be cremated (so that the bodies could not be disposed of completely), but were either burned in open air pits, or just buried in graves. This includes both the disposal of bodies in relation to the alleged death camps and the alleged murder mission of the Einsatzgruppen. I have heard of the uncovering of mass graves at Belzec, but, as I understand it, the quantity of bodies uncovered is not consistent with the conventional Holocaust account in terms of the numbers of inmates supposedly involved. Also, I would imagine that if there were any mass graves that could be attributed to the Nazis the communist governments would have been only too eager to point this out to the world; but, as far as I know, there was never been any uncovering of mass graves, which would seem strange in terms of the conventional Holocaust account of the massive number of Nazi victims. Of course, there are many factors to be taken into account in regard to the Holocaust, such as what documentation is available, or eyewitness accounts; but I think it would be useful if there was some concrete evidence in the form of the forensic evidence of mass graves -- perhaps there are reasons that I am not aware of which make this impossible?



Good point. We had exactly this discussion between me (former Thorwald) and Roberto Muehlenkamp. A scientific forensic examination at the place of the mass killings is still be recommended, independent of other evidence material. The actual question is not dealing with the historical existence of the Holocaust, but with the scientific background of its own exploration.

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4505
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Post by Roberto » 24 Jun 2002 12:22

comrade seinfeld wrote:I must make it clear that I am not a Holocaust revisionist (or denier, if you like!), but a Holocaust agnostic, so that I am trying to find out the facts in order to reach a conclusive perspective (which I am inclined to think is a Utopian notion, as everyone concerned with it seems to have an ideological agenda!), which is why I would like to ask questions and make comments in this forum.


How often have I read this before? The “I’m just a skeptic/agnostic/whatsoever” – stuff? It doesn’t exactly sound convincing.

1. The killers went to great lengths to erase the physical traces of their crimes. In the Soviet Union, a special detachment called Sonderkommando 1005 went after the mass graves left after the Einsatzgruppen killings, dug them up, incinerated the bodies and then buried or scattered the ashes and other partial remains. They couldn’t erase all the traces, however, and a lot of physical evidence remained behind to be assessed by Soviet investigation commissions. The reports of these commissions, not accessible to Western historians while there was an Iron Curtain, are now gradually being released as Russia has granted access to the archives of the former Soviet Union. There have also been isolated instances of investigations of former killing sites by Western criminal justice authorities. Richard Wright’s description of the excavations at Serniki in Ukraine can be found under the following link:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/ft ... s//ukraine

More such investigations are likely to occur in the future. They are certain to enhance our knowledge of certain details, but they are not necessary to provide proof of the mass killings that occurred. These are proven beyond reasonable doubt by a vast array of documentary and eyewitness evidence, in combination with population statistics of the countries involved and demographic calculations. The Einsatzgruppen killers, for instance, left behind detailed records of their activities in the form of the reports they sent to their superiors on an almost daily basis. Translations of some of these reports can be found under the following link:

http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/einsatz.html

2. At Chelmno extermination camp and in the Aktion Reinhard(t) camps Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, there was a similar effort to erase the physical evidence by incinerating the corpses and burying or scattering the ashes. Here as well it was not entirely successful, as the traces detected by various investigation commissions and archeological teams throughout the last five and a half decades show:

There are also other traces. For example, in the north-eastern part, over a surface covering about 2 ha. (5 acres), there are large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous human bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues.

As a result of an examination made by an expert it was found that ashes were the remains of burnt human bones. The examination of numerous human skulls found in the camp has shown that they bear no traces of external injuries. Within a radius of several hundred yards from the camp site an unpleasant smell of burnt ash and decay is noticeable, growing stronger as one approaches.


From the report by the Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes in Poland. Warsaw, 1946

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gcpoltreb1.htm

In the area where the gas chambers were supposed to have been located, the commission's team of 30 excavation workers reportedly found human remains, partially in the process of decay, and an unspecified amount of ash. Untouched sandy soil was reached at 7.5 meters, at which point the digging was halted. An accompanying photograph of an excavated pit reveals some large bones. (note 63)

Poland's Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes
reported that large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous human bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues, were found in the five acre (two hectare) burial area during an examination of the site shortly after the end of the war. (note 64)


The investigations by the Central Commission as referred to in an article by "Revionists" Mark Weber and Andrew Allen.

Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... linka.9605

Let’s assume that half the Treblinka burial area was pits, the other half the space to move in between them. The pits themselves would thus have covered an area of ca. 10,000 square meters, which at a depth of 7.5 meters meant a total burial volume of 75,000 cubic meters. How much space does a dead body occupy? That depends, of course, on whether it is the body of a male adult, a woman or a child. I’ve done some calculations in this respect and reached the following conclusions:
i) A male adult like myself, 187 cms high and with a shoulder width of 45 cms, would occupy ca. 0.25 cubic meters;
ii) A women with the measurements of my girlfriend, 160 cms high and with a shoulder width of 30 cms, would occupy ca. 0.144 cubic meters;
iii) A ten year old child, 140 cms. high and with a shoulder width of 20 cms, would occupy ca. 0.08 cubic meters; ´
iv) The volume of a child up to five years would never be more than 0.03 cubic meters.
The people who were taken to Treblinka consisted mostly of women, children and elderly people, considered unfit to work. I think it’s reasonable to assume that no more than 10 % of those transported there were younger adult males, 50 % were women or elderly males and 40 % were children equally divided between elder and younger ones, i.e. 20 % each. This means that the average volume of a deportee taken to Treblinka, in cubic meters, would be the following: <(0.25 * 10) + (0.14 * 50) + (0.08 * 20) + (0.03 * 20)> / 100 = 0.12, which means that one cubic meter of burial space could take ca. 8 dead bodies and that 75,000 cubic meters could take ca. 600,000 bodies. Whole bodies, that is. Now, a large part of the bodies was never buried but burned right away, and those who had been buried were mostly disinterred and burned as well. The ashes of a human being, after the bones have been ground, fill up the volume of a shoebox, ca. 2.5 liters according to my calculations. One cubic meter is 1,000 liters, which means that 400 such shoeboxes fit into one cubic meter and 75,000 * 400 = 30,000,000 would fit into the whole assumed volume of the pits. Actually “only” 700,000 to 900,000 had to, which means that, when the burial pits were filled up with the ashes and other partial remains, alternated with layers of earth or sand, more than 99 % of their volume consisted of the latter. This in turn explains why it was impossible for the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland, in the course of its excavations on the camp, to quantify the ashes and other partial remains they found. Not all bodies were completely reduced to ashes, for sure. A huge number of skulls and burnt bone fragments remained, as did the decomposing but unburned bodies of those who had been originally buried at bottom of the pits. The Commission refrained from speculating on the quantities of remains and instead calculated the number of dead by the only method reliable under the circumstances: assessment of the documentary evidence, namely the transportation documents.

The number of people killed at Belzec was long estimated at around 600,000. Thanks to a newly discovered document, the Höfle memorandum intercepted by the British decoding service at Bletchley Park, we now know the exact number of Jews from the Polish General Government who were transported to that place in order to be killed there:

==============
13/15. OLQ de OMQ 1005
83 234 250
State Secret!
To the Senior Commander of the Security Police ,
for the attention of SS Obersturmbannfuhrer HEIM, CRACOW.
Subject: fortnightly report Einsatz REINHART.
Reference: radio telegram therefrom.
recorded arrivals until December 31, 42,
L 12,761,
B 0,
S 515,
T 10 335 <,>
together 23 611
sum total. December 31, 42,
L 24 733,
B 434 508,
S 101 370,
T 71 355, read: 713 555]
together 1 274 166
SS and Police Leader Lublin, HOFLE, Sturmbannfuhrer
========================


According to this document, deportations to Belzec ended in 1942 and 434,508 people were transported to Belzec until the end of that year. Only seven people are known to have survived the camp, and one of them was killed in 1946 by Polish anti-Semites in Lublin. Two of the survivors, Rudolf Reder and Chaim Hirszman, testified about their experiences at Belzec, Reder even published a report in Cracow in 1946. (Michael Tregenza, Belzec – Das vergessene Lager der Holocaust, in : Jahrbuch Fritz Bauer Institut, 2000[/I]). Extracts from Reder’s report can be found in the expert opinion submitted by Prof. Browning at the Irving-Lipstadt trial:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/documents/Browning3.htm

Much of what is known about the killing process at that camp results not from these survivors’ testimonials, however, but from depositions of former members of the camp’s staff before West German courts at the trials against Karl Streibel et al before the Hamburg County Court (LG Hamburg 147 Ks 1/72) and against Josef Kaspar Oberhauser before the Munich County Court. (LG München I 110 Ks 3/64). Summaries of both trials can be found on the website of the University of Amsterdam:

http://www.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Tatortfr.htm

under “KL Belzec”. The summary of the trial against Oberhauser is also available under the following link:

http://www.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/brdengf ... eng585.htm

Of the three Aktion Reinhard(t) camps, Belzec is the one regarding which the most thorough site investigation was done. What follows are extracts from the report on the archaeological investigation performed in 1997/98 by a team headed by Andrzej Kola, director of the Underwater Archeological Department at the University of Torun, and Mieczyslaw Gora, senior curator of the Museum of Archeology and Ethnology in Lodz and a comment thereon by British historian Michael Tregenza, who was part of the team:

"II. LOCATION/INVESTIGATION OF MASS GRAVES October 1997
"Grave No. 1. Located only 5 m. S of BM 2007. At 3.90 m. below ground level a layer of dark grey (burnt) sand was found in which were mixed pieces of carbonized wood and fragments of human bones - among them an incisor tooth. This was the first indication of the [Page 14] "presence of a mass grave. Beneath this deep layer lay a several centimetres thick layer of foul-smelling water under which were found unburnt corpses compressed by the weight of soil to a layer only 20 cm thick. The drill core brought to the surface putrid pieces of human remains, including pieces of skull with skin and tufts of hair still attached, and unidentifiable lumps of greyish, fatty human tissue. The bottom of the grave was lined with a layer of evil smelling black (i.e. burnt) human fat, resembling black soap. As no evidence of fabric was brought to the surface, it may be assumed that the corpses are naked. The state of preservation of the corpses is due to the fact that they lay virtually hermetically sealed between the layer of water above, the layer of solidified fat below, underneath which the natural, dry and compressed sand through which no air could penetrate, resulted in their partial mummification. The dimensions of Grave No. 1 were determined as 40 m. x 11 m. and over 5 m. deep.

"Grave No. 2. A small grave 70 m. E of BM 2007 and close to the S fence, contained at the depth of only 30 cm. a layer of pieces of carbonized wood beneath which at depth 1.50 m. there was a layer of unburnt human corpses. Dimensions of the grave: l5 m. x 5 m. x 2 m. deep.

"Grave No. 3. This was the first mass grave the location of which was positively identified from a Luftwaffe aerial photograph taken in 1944, in which it appears as a T-shaped white patch and seems to be the biggest grave in the camp.[1] The presence of graves in this part of the camp was also discernible at ground level by soil subsidence and different vegetation on the areas of subsidence. Upon investigation, however, it was found that the T-shape consisted of three separate graves (labelled 3, 5 and 6 on Fig. 4) with Grave No. 3 forming the stem of the 'T'. It measured 20 m. x 15 m. and is at least 5 m. deep.[2] After drilling through a 4.90 m. deep layer of dark grey sand mixed with pieces of carbonized wood and fragments of burnt human bones, a foul odour was released. The drill core brought to the surface pieces of skulls with skin and tufts of hair still attached, lumps of greyish human fat, and fragments of unburnt human bones. The bottom layer consisted of putrid, waxy human fat.

"Grave No. 4. Located immediately adjacent to the N side of BM 2007, measures 20 m. x 8 m. and is 5 m. deep. At depth 1.20 m., burnt pieces of human bones were found. Beneath this, a layer of water signalled the presence of corpses at the next level. From below the water layer the drill core brought to the surface pieces of unburnt human bones, including pieces of skulls with skin and hair still adhering and lumps of foul smelling greasy fat, indicating the presence of unburnt corpses

"Grave No. 5. Formed the left-hand bar of the T-shaped arrangement of graves 3, 5 and 6 (see Fig. 4), in which were found pieces of burnt human bones in a layer 2.60 m. - 3.80 m. deep. Near the W end of the grave the bones were so densely packed together that the drill could not penetrate further. Dimensions: 35 m. x 15 m. and at least 5 m. deep.

"Grave No. 6. Forms the right-hand bar of the T-shaped arrangement of graves and measures 33 m. x 14 m. and is more than 5 m. deep. At depth 0.4 m. - 2.60 m. there is a layer of carbonized wood and fragments of burnt human bones. At the E end of the grave the ground is covered with grey sand containing a mixture of crushed pieces of burnt and unburnt pieces of human bones. A few silver birch trees stand between Graves 5 and 6. "Additional test soundings were made in the vicinity of the four symbolic tombs near the E fence in an area where the Luftwaffe aerial photograph also indicated the presence of mass "Footnotes "[1] Air Photo Library, National Archives, Washington DC, USA. Film Roll No.: GX 8095 33 SK, exposure 155, dated 15 May 1944. "[2] It was because several of the mass graves located and investigated in October 1997 were found to be deeper than 5 m. that the length of the drills in the 1998 investigation was increased from 5 m. to 6 m. [Page 15] "graves. The location of three graves was confirmed in the area of symbolic tombs 1, 3) and 4. Their dimensions and depths were not determined at this time." (Tregenza, pp. 13-15)

"VI. LOCATION/INVESTIGATION OF MASS GRAVES April - June 1998

"Grave No. 7. Initially located in October - 1997 in the vicinity of symbolic tomb No. 4. Dimensions determined as 30 m. x 14 m. The symbolic tomb lay just to the right (S) of the grave. Carbonized pieces of wood and fragments of burnt human bones mixed with dark grey ash were found to a depth of 5 m.

"Grave No. 8. Of similar dimensions to grave No. 7, but a 12 m. long arm of this grave projects 20 m. to the SW. Contains burnt pieces of human bones and fragments of carbonized wood.

"Grave No. 9. Located immediately behind symbolic tomb No. 1, next to the NE fence, measures 10 m. square and contains burnt human remains and pieces of carbonized wood mixed with grey sand. "Note: the surface soil around graves 7, 8 and 9 consists of a thin layer of grey sand containing a large quantity of crushed pieces of burnt human bones.

"Grave No. 10. One of the largest mass graves in the camp, lies 15 m. N of the monument/mausoleum and measures 25 m. x 20 m. At depth 4 m. a 80 cm thick layer of human fat was found below which lay unburnt human remains and pieces of unburnt large human bones. The drill core brought to the surface several lumps of foul smelling fatty tissue still in a state of decomposition, mixed with greasy lime.

"Grave No. 11. A smaller grave than any hither-to discovered (with the exception of grave No. 2), measures 11 m. x 9 m., located immediately adjacent to the NE corner of the monument/mausoleum. A few fragments of burnt human bones mixed with innumerable small pieces of carbonized wood were found at a depth of only 1.90 m.

"Grave No. 12. Located immediately to the N of grave No. 10 , is an L-shaped grave with the foot, measuring 20 m., lying to the W and the stem, 28 m. in length, pointing N. A small number of pieces of unburnt human bones were found at depth 3 m. mixed with grey sand and innumerable small fragments of carbonized wood. This layer extended to a depth of 4.40 m

"Grave No. 13. The smallest grave discovered in the camp, measuring only 5 m. x 5m. and 4.80 m. deep. Located next to the W fence, it contains a mixture of burnt human remains and pieces of carbonized wood mixed with grey sand.

"Grave No. 14. The largest grave in the camp, it extends beyond the N fence into the area of the adjacent sawmill. The section within the fence is an irregular zig-zag on the S side measuring 65 m. x 30 m. at its widest point E - W, and 8 m. at its narrowest. Contains burnt pieces of human bones and fragments of carbonized wood mixed with grey, sandy soil to a depth of 3.10 m. Originally, grave No. 14 could have measured ca. 70 m. x 30 m. [Page 18]

"Grave No. 15. Another small grave, measuring 12 m. x 7 m. Situated adjacent to the S side of grave No. 14 it contains a mixture of pieces of burnt human bones, fragments of carbonized wood and grey sand.

"Grave No. 16. Also located adjacent to grave No. 14 and immediately E of grave No. 15. Measuring 20 m. x 8 m. it contains a mixture of burnt fragments of human bones and carbonized wood to a depth of 4.10 m.

"Grave No. 17. Situated next to and S of graves 12 and 16, measures 16m. x 8 m. and is 3.50 m. deep. Contains a mixture of pieces of burnt human bones, carbonized wood and grey sand.

"Grave No. 18. Lies next to the S edge of grave No. 15 and measures 15 m. x 10 m. and contains the same mixture of burnt pieces of human bones, carbonized wood and grey sand.

"Grave No. 19. Located within the area formed by graves 14, 15, 18 and 20, and close to the SW corner of grave 14. Measuring 14 m. x 8 m. it contains the mixture of grey sand, burnt pieces of human bones and carbonized wood to a depth of 3.50 m.

"Grave No. 20. In the form of a long trench at the W end of grave No. 14 and is the last one at the N end of the group of 18 graves along the N fence. In the same manner as its neighbour, grave No. 14, it also extends beyond the N fence into the area of the adjacent sawmill. The section within the fence measures 28 m. x 10 m. and reaches a depth of 5 m. At depth 4 m. there was found a dental bridge with four false teeth (2 amalgam and 2 white plastic). Originally, grave No. 20 could have measured 30-35 m. x 10 m.

"Grave No. 21. One of the smallest graves, measures only 7 m. sq. Situated in the forested S part of the memorial area, midway between graves 5 and 7, it is also unexpectedly shallow, being only 1.70 m. deep and contains pieces of burnt human bones and fragments of carbonized wood mixed with grey sand.

"Grave No. 22. Also situated in the forested S part of the memorial area, in the shape of an inverted 'L', close to the NE corner of grave No. 6. Measuring 27 m. on the long (E) side and 10 m. on the S side, it contains pieces of burnt human bones and fragments of carbonized wood mixed with grey sand to a depth of 3.60 m.

"Grave No. 23. Also one of the smaller graves, measuring 10 m. x 7 m., and located between graves 6 and 21. Contains burnt human remains to a depth of 4.20 m.

"Grave No. 24. A narrow trench near the N fence and next to the E corner of grave No. 14. Contains burnt human remains to a depth of 4.80 m.

"Grave No. 25. Located immediately to the E of graves 12 and 14, measures 14 m. x 8 m. and contains a mixture of burnt human remains, including corpses and skeletons, to a depth of 3 m. Below this level there is a 1 m. deep layer of waxy fat and greasy lime. A foul odour was released when the drill penetrated the layer of corpses and the drill core withdrew lumps of decaying fatty tissue and large pieces of bone.

"Grave No. 26. Another small grave, 9 m. x 9 m., and located immediately next to the E edge of grave No. 25. Contains a mixture of burnt human remains to a depth of 4.20 m. "Note: the soil above and around graves 25 and 26 is covered with a layer of innumerable small fragments of burnt human bones and small pieces of carbonized wood.

"Grave No. 27. One of the smaller graves, measures 10 m. x 4 m., and situated close to the N end of grave No. 25. Contains burnt and unburnt human remains. The top layer consists of burnt human bones and carbonized wood beneath which there is a layer of grey, waxy lime. The bottom of the grave contains not completely decomposed human remains mixed with putrid smelling greasy human fat. (Cf. graves 10 and 25). [Page 19]

"Grave No. 28. One of the smallest graves, measuring only 6 m. x 6 m. Located between grave 27 and the N fence, it also contains burnt human remains beneath which there is a layer of grey, greasy lime. The bottom of the grave, at depth 4.90 m, is lined with putrid smelling greasy human fat. (Cf. graves 10, 25 and 27).

"Grave No. 29. Measures 30 m. x 10 m. in the form of a big trench. Located just to the NE of grave 26, its E corner is immediately in front of symbolic tomb No. 1 and contains pieces of burnt human bones mixed with fragments of carbonized wood and grey sand. "Note: the ground between this grave and grave 26 to the NE is covered with a layer of innumerable fragments of burnt and crushed human bones mixed with grey sand. Graves 12, 15, 16, 19, 24-26 and 29 lie partly beneath the six grass-topped tiers bearing the urns intended for the 'Eternal Flames'

"Grave No. 30. Located in the N angle between graves 26 and 29, measures 10 m. x 4 m. Contains pieces of burnt human bones and fragments of carbonized wood mixed with grey sand to a depth of 3.80 m

"Grave No. 31. Similar in size to grave No. 30, measures 10 m. x 6 m. Situated next to the N fence between graves 28 and 29, this grave also contains a mixture of burnt pieces of human bones, fragments of carbonized wood and grey sand.

"Grave No. 32. Situated close to the N corner of the memorial site between graves 9 and 13. Measuring 15 m. x 5 m. it contains the mixture of pieces of burnt human bones and carbonized wood mixed with grey sand beneath which there is a layer of grey, greasy lime and a foul smelling layer of human fat containing decomposing human remains: the drill core brought to the surface pieces of skull with skin and tufts of hair still attached. At the bottom of the grave, at depth 4.10 m., lie a large number of unburnt human bones. (Cf. graves 10, 25, 27 and 28 ). The path to the small gate near the N corner of the memorial area passes over the S end of the grave.

"Grave No. 33. A small, shallow grave measuring only 5 m. x 5 m. and 2.80 m. deep. Located in the extreme NE corner of the memorial site, it contains tiny fragments of burnt human bones mixed with small pieces of carbonized wood and grey sand." (Tregenza, pp. 17-19)

"XI. CONCLUSIONS "*

The most significant and unexpected facts to emerge as a result of the 1997-98 investigations are the large number of mass graves discovered (33), and the large number of indications of camp structures of various sizes (65) scattered throughout the area of the former extermination camp, and the deep cellars beneath some of the buildings. Several of the camp structures correspond approximately in position with buildings shown on [Page 26] [text seems to be missing here] "the undressing and barbers' barracks, workshops, warehouse, and bunker for the electricity generator; in Camp II, barracks and kitchen for the Jewish 'death brigade').[1]

"* The two main phases of the camp's gassing operations may be identified by the arrangement of the mass graves and camp structures between the graves. Thus, the apparent proliferation of small wooden structures between the graves of the first phase may have been temporary barracks for the Jews of the 'death brigade' employed in digging the mass graves, and shelters for the guards. Three of the smallest wooden structures arranged at intervals around the W and S part of the grave field from the first period suggest watchtowers overlooking the grave digging work. The structures in the S half of the camp area doubtless date from the second period. (Fig 8 ).

"* Graves 12 and 14-20, ranged along the N fence, correspond to witnesses' statements as [2] being the first to be utilized during the period February-May 1942. They undoubtedly contain the remains of the Jews from the Lublin ghetto, deported to Belzec camp between mid-March - mid-April 1942, and the remains of early transports from the Lvov ghetto and the transit ghettos at lzbica and Piaski. In these grave also lie the remains of German Jews deported from the Reich in April-May to lzbica and Piaski, and thence to Belzec.

"* Graves 10, 25, 27, 28, 32 and 33, which contain a layer of lime covering still decomposing human remains, date from the spring of 1942 when the local German civil authorities complained about the health hazard caused by decomposing corpses in open graves. Chloride of lime was spread over the six still open mass graves identified above in an effort to avoid epidemics breaking out.

"* Evidence of the subsequent failed attempt at cremating corpses in graves may be found in the small graves near the N fence, Nos. 27, 28 and 32, in which a layer of burnt human remains and pieces of carbonized wood. The bottom of each of these graves is lined with a layer of human fat.

"* With the exception of grave 14, the comparatively small size of the other graves clustered around it near the N corner of the camp is indicative of the smaller transports of this period which carried on average 1,500 victims each.[3]

"* Some of the smallest graves (e.g. Nos.: 13, 27, 28, 32 and 33) could be the execution pits in which the old, sick and infirm Jews were shot during the first phase, while graves 2, 21 and 23 could be the execution pits from the second phase. Such small graves correspond with descriptions given in testimony by former members of the SS- garrison at their trial in Munich 1963-64.[4]

"* At least a dozen graves still contain today unburnt, partially mummified or decomposing corpses. Exactly why the SS did not empty all the graves and destroy their contents is not known; they were in no hurry to leave the area as the entire SS-garrison was redistributed to other camps in the Lublin District for at least five months after the liquidation of Belzec. However, that all the corpses were not disinterred and destroyed may be due to the following:

"a) six of the graves not emptied date from the first phase and contain decomposing corpses under a layer of lime; the corpses would have been in such an appalling state of disintegration that even the SS were reluctant to attempt disinterrment;

"b) three of the graves not completely emptied date from the second phase and are among the largest in the camp (with the exception of grave 14); removal of their entire decomposing contents presented a daunting task.
"* Perhaps after five months of supervising day and night the gruesome work of exhuming and cremating the hundreds of thousands of rotting remains the SS had simply had enough, and against orders, abandoned the task.[5] The opened and partly emptied graves were refilled with the fragments of burnt human bones and pieces of carbonized wood from the bone mill, mixed with sand.

"* From the wealth of evidence uncovered by the 1997-98 investigations it is obvious that the camp SS did not by any means erase all traces of the extermination camp, as hitherto believed. The majority of the wooden barracks were burnt down and the carbonized wood broken up into fragments; solid structures were demolished and the bricks, stones and concrete or cement broken into pieces and buried. Solidly constructed cellars beneath certain buildings were used as refuse pits into which were thrown items of glass and metal which could not be completely destroyed by fire. The cellars were then simply filled in with soil. Other articles of glass and metal were buried among the remains of burnt down wooden barracks. At the Ramp, the wooden support posts and planks retaining the sandy soil of the two platforms -- the negative images of which were uncovered during the 1997 investigation -- were also removed and most likely burnt.

"* It has long been thought that only one railway siding existed at the Ramp and that it was later extended further into the camp to accommodate the longer transports of the second phase. However, the construction of such an extension would not have been possible due to the forested and uneven terrain at the SW end of the camp. Luftwaffe aerial photographs of Belzec taken in 1940 and 1944 clearly show that two parallel tracks existed on the camp area. Witnesses also mention the existence of two tracks during the second phase. [6] It is also apparent from the large amounts of engine oil and grease found on the trackbeds in 1997 that locomotives entered the camp and did not always remain outside the camp gate -- having shunted the wagons from behind -- as stated by many witnesses.

"* The number of watchtowers around the camp perimeter was probably larger than claimed by witnesses. The original number of three towers at the corners (with the exception of the NW corner by the main gate) and one in the camp itself, must have been increased during the reorganization/rebuilding of the camp in June-July 1942, prior to the increased extermination activity which began on 1 August, and the employment of 1,000 'work Jews' in the camp. Evidence of three small wooden structures at 55 m. intervals along the E fence indicate the probable position of such additional watchtowers.

"* In the autumn of 1942 there was increased partisan activity in the Belzec area which necessitated extra security precautions by the camp SS and Soviet guard unit. 7 One such measure was the construction of a concrete bunker at the SE corner of the camp, on the highest point of the terrain. It would also have been logical and effective to have had a watchtower above the bunker, affording a clear all-round view and field of fire over the entire camp area and its environs.

"* A comparison of Figs. 7 and 8 confirm that during its first phase Belzec was a temporary, experimental camp where the procedures and logistics of mass extermination by gas and the burial of corpses were tried and tested, initially on the Jews of the Lublin ghetto, before being applied at the Sobibor and Treblinka extermination camps. It can also be seen that the original camp structures and mass graves of the first phase were concentrated along the N fence, leaving the majority of the camp area empty and unused but ready for utilization and expansion at a later date. The primitive, experimental gassing barrack and undressing barracks were also temporary structures, replaced later by bigger and more solidly constructed buildings to accommodate the increased number of victims."(Tregenza, pp 26-28 )

Work Cited

Tregenza, Michael. Report on the Archeological Investigation at the Site of the Former NAZI Extermination Camp in Belzec, Poland, 1997-98. Lublin, 1998


Source of quotes:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... enza_II.98

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... enza_VI.98

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... lusions.98

Of special interest is the description of grave # 10:

Grave No. 10. One of the largest mass graves in the camp, lies 15 m. N of the monument/mausoleum and measures 25 m. x 20 m. At depth 4 m. a 80 cm thick layer of human fat was found below which lay unburnt human remains and pieces of unburnt large human bones. The drill core brought to the surface several lumps of foul smelling fatty tissue still in a state of decomposition, mixed with greasy lime.


Source of quote:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... enza_VI.98

The presence of human remains [I]underneath
the layer of human fat actually indicates that burning in this grave was done in the way suggested, i.e. “top down”, thus not reaching the lower layers of corpses which remained unburned and covered by the fat flowing out of the corpses burnt above them.

The question now is, why and when was this method used? Was this the way in which the large-scale burning of bodies dug out from the mass graves, described before German courts by former members of the SS staff such as Heinrich Gley, was carried out?

Hardly so. Evidence points to the following possibilities:

i) It was an initial attempt at erasing the physical traces of the crimes, which was reckoned to be ineffective and thus replaced by the more efficient method of burning the bodies upon grids made of railroad tracks laid on concrete blocks, using brushwood drenched with fuel placed underneath the grid.

ii) The “top down” burning occurred before it was decided to erase the traces of all the corpses, and its purpose was to “downsize” the contents of the mass graves in order to make room for further bodies.
Alternative i) is suggested by Tregenza in his analysis of the report:

* Evidence of the subsequent failed attempt at cremating corpses in graves may be found in the small graves near the N fence, Nos. 27, 28 and 32, in which a layer of burnt human remains and pieces of carbonized wood. The bottom of each of these graves is lined with a layer of human fat.


http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... lusions.98

I have found no eyewitness depositions indicating such a “failed attempt” at Belzec in the few sources at my disposal, which of course doesn’t necessarily mean that there are no such depositions. Evidence to a trial-and-error approach at Treblinka, on the other hand, is provided by the testimonial of Ya'akov Wiernik at the Eichmann trial:

Q. The burning of the bodies — was it always in the manner in which you described it, or was it perhaps in crematoria, inside buildings?
A. Until the end of 1942, they did not burn those who had been gassed, but they would bury them in enormous pits. The bodies were placed inside. Only at the beginning of 1943 did they make various experiments of how to burn them, and they did not succeed. The a certain Scharführer arrived, an SS man, and he brought this model for the grids, and he always used to stand near the fire and shout: "Tadellos, tadellos!" (perfect, perfect!).
Q. And were they burned only in this way?
A. Yes. This is the way they burned them.


Source of quote:

http://www.ukar.org/eichma02.shtml

It seems plausible that similar unsuccessful experiments, followed by the successful adoption of the grids method, were carried out at Belzec.

As to alternative ii), we have the deposition of Dr. Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, who described his visit to Belzec on 18./19. August 1942 at a trial in Munich in 1961. His deposition, transcribed on pages 173 and 174 of Kogon/Langbein/Rückerl, Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas, contains the following statement:

Nachdem in den Kammern Stille eingetreten war, wurden die an der Außenwand der Gebäudes angebrachten Türen geöffnet. Durch diese wurden die Leichen von jüdischen Häftlingen herausgeschafft und in große Gruben geworfen. In diesen Gruben wurden die Leichen verbrannt.


My translation:

After it had become quiet in the chambers, the doors located on the exterior walls of the building were opened. Through these the corpses were taken out by Jewish inmates and thrown into huge pits. In these pits the corpses were burned.


If Pfannenstiel got the time of his visit to Belzec right, this means that the bodies were being burned in the pits into which they were thrown in August of 1942. While this is borne out by the above described physical evidence, which suggests a “top down” burning using wood and tar paper in the pits, it is apparently not related to the overall burning of the corpses described by Heinrich Gley, former member of the SS staff of Belzec, at the already mentioned trial in Munich. A translation of Gley’s deposition is provided in Prof. Browning’s expert opinion at the Irving-Lipstadt trial:

As I remember the gassing was stopped at the end of 1942, when there was snow already on the ground. Then the general exhumation and cremation of the corpses began; it might have lasted from November 1942 until March 1943. The cremation was carried out day and night without a break, and indeed at first at one and then later at two fire sites. It was possible to cremate some 2 corpses at one fire site within 24 hours. About 4 weeks after the beginning of the cremation operation the second fire site was constructed. On average, therefore, some 300,000 corpses were cremated at the first site over 5 months, at the second site some 240,000 over 4 months. Naturally this is a matter of estimates based on averages. To figure the total number of corpses at 500,000 could be correct.


Gley’s description of the general exhumation and cremation of the corpses is interesting in that it dates the commencement of this procedure to November 1942. This suggests that the burning in the pits in August 1942, described by Pfannenstiel, was not related to the general exhumation and cremation of the corpses but to an attempt to “downsize” the contents of the pits by burning the bodies as far as possible, in order to make room for further bodies.

As to the dimensions of the mass graves found in the 1997/98 investigation and their presumable contents prior to the “general exhumation and cremation of the corpses” described by Gley, the online excerpts from the report on that investigation allow for the following calculations:

Grave No.; Length (m); Width (m); Area (m2); Depth (m); Volume (m3); Number of Bodies

1; 40.00; 11.00; 440.00; 5.00; 2,200.00; 17,600
2; 15.00; 5.00; 75.00; 2.00; 150.00; 1,200
3; 20.00; 15.00; 300.00; 5.00; 1,500.00; 12,000
4; 20.00; 8.00; 160.00; 5.00; 800.00;
6,400
5; 35.00; 15.00; 525.00; 5.00; 2,625.00; 21,000
6; 33.00; 14.00; 462.00; 5.00; 2,310.00; 18,480
7; 30.00; 14.00; 420.00; 5.00; 2,100.00; 16,800
8; 30.00; 14.00; 420.00; 5.00; 2,100.00; 16,800
9; 10.00; 10.00; 100.00; 2.00; 200.00;
1,600
10; 25.00; 20.00; 500.00; 5.00; 2,500.00; 20,000
11; 11.00; 9.00; 99.00; 2.00; 198.00;
1,584
12; 20.00; 28.00; 560.00; 4.00; 2,240.00; 17,920
13; 5.00; 5.00; 25.00; 5.00; 125.00;
1,000
14; 70.00; 30.00; 2,100.00; 3.00; 6,300.00 50,400
15; 12.00; 7.00; 84.00; 2.00; 168.00;
1,344
16; 20.00; 8.00; 160.00; 4.00; 640.00;
5,120
17; 16.00; 8.00; 128.00; 3.50; 448.00;
3,584
18; 15.00; 10.00; 150.00; 2.00; 300.00;
2,400
19; 14.00; 8.00; 112.00; 3.50; 392.00;
3,136
20 30.00; 10.00; 300.00; 5.00; 1,500.00; 12,000
21 7.00; 7.00; 49.00; 2.00; 98.00;
784
22 27.00; 10.00; 270.00; 3.50; 945.00;
7,560
23; 10.00; 7.00; 70.00; 4.20; 294.00; 2,352
24 ?; ?; 0,00; 4.80; ?;
?
25; 14.00; 8.00; 112.00; 3.00; 336.00;
2,688
26; 9.00; 9.00; 81.00; 4.20; 340.20;
2,722
27; 10.00; 4.00; 40.00; 2.00; 80.00;
640
28; 5.00; 5.00; 25.00; 5.00; 125.00;
1,000
29; 30.00; 10.00; 300.00; 2.00; 600.00;
4,800
30; 10.00; 4.00; 40.00; 4.00; 160.00;
1,280
31; 10.00; 5.00; 50.00; 4.00; 200.00;
1,600
32; 15.00; 5.00; 75.00; 4.00; 300.00;
2,400
33; 5.00; 5.00; 25.00; 3.00; 75.00;
600

TOTALS (without grave no. 24):

Area: 8,257.00 square meters

Volume: 32,349.20 cubic meters

Estimated number of corpses: 258,794

Where data as to the depth of the graves were not given, I assumed the lowest depth found in the other graves, i.e. ca. 2 meters. The data provided for grave no. 24, on the other hand, are too vague to allow for assumptions regarding its length and width:

Grave No. 24. A narrow trench near the N fence and next to the E corner of grave No. 14. Contains burnt human remains to a depth of 4.80 m.


which is why there are question marks in regard to these data and the volume of the grave in the above list.

In order to establish the number of dead bodies prior to burning, I multiplied the volume of the pits in cubic meters with an average established by the calculations already explained, i.e. 8 bodies per cubic meter.

The resulting total of 258,794 bodies is 175,714 bodies below the figure of 434,508 deportees to Belzec indicated in the Höfle memo. There are several possible explanations for the delta:

i) The 1997/98 archaeological investigation failed to discover all the burial facilities of the camp and there are mass graves that have still not been found.

ii) The capacity of the pits was stretched by the procedure of “top down” burning, as suggested by the physical evidence and by Pfannenstiel’s above quoted testimonial.

iii) The difference is to be found “somewhere else”.
Alternative iii) immediately raises the question: Where?

Considering that

- there is no evidence whatsoever that people taken to Belzec were taken anywhere else from there;

- the nature and purpose of the camp, and the fate of people transported there, become clearly apparent from the documentary evidence and from the depositions of former members of the SS staff at trials before West German courts;

- there is only a handful of deportees known to have survived Belzec
this alternative must be considered the least probable of the three. I consider alternative ii) to be the most likely possibility, but I wouldn’t rule out alternative i) either.

3. Even at Auschwitz-Birkenau, were most bodies were disposed of in crematorium ovens and the ashes scattered or thrown into nearby rivers and marshes, a considerable amount of physical evidence remained behind:

In 1965, Hydrokop, a chemical mining enterprise based in Krakow, was commissioned by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum to carry out geological tests at Birkenau aimed at determining the locations of incineration pits and pyres. Specialists of Hydrokop bored 303 holes up to 3 m deep. Traces of human ashes, bones, and hair turned up in 42 sites. Documentation of all the holes and the diagrams of their distribution are preserved in the Conservation Department of the Museum
--(Franciszek Piper, _Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death
Camp_, p. 179n).


Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.py?camps/ausc ... rning-pits

4. Notwithstanding the fact that the killers didn’t manage to erase all the physical evidence to their crimes, the physical evidence they left does not allow for a more or less accurate quantification of the death toll of the mentioned extermination camps. A more appropriate tool for this purpose is the assessment of the surviving documentary evidence regarding the transports to the various camps. Train schedules, telegrams and train inventories, together with correspondence among Nazi officials and reports such as the above mentioned Höfle memorandum, make it possible to establish the number of people who vanished behind the gates of those camps with a great degree of accuracy.

5. Last but not least, if should be pointed out that this “where are the bodies” – argument could be used to question the occurrence of any event of mass killing in history. Regarding most atrocities of the last century, physical evidence is not more plentiful than in regard to the Nazi genocide, and documentary and eyewitness evidence are comparatively sparse. Where, for instance, are the bodies of or documentary records regarding

- the at least one million victims of the Turkish genocide of the Armenians in 1915;
- the at least four million victims of Stalin’s forced famine in the Ukraine in 1932/33;
- the victims of Allied bombing in Germany, estimated by the West German government at ca. 600,000;
- the victims of the expulsions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War II, estimated by the West German government at ca. 2 million ?

These examples, the last three of which those who profess themselves to be “skeptical” or “agnostic” in regard to Nazis crimes never put in question, make clear that their “where are the bodies” – argument makes no sense at all.

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

SMOKE AND MIRRORS...

Post by Scott Smith » 24 Jun 2002 21:21

Roberto wrote:
comrade seinfeld wrote:I must make it clear that I am not a Holocaust revisionist (or denier, if you like!), but a Holocaust agnostic, so that I am trying to find out the facts in order to reach a conclusive perspective (which I am inclined to think is a Utopian notion, as everyone concerned with it seems to have an ideological agenda!), which is why I would like to ask questions and make comments in this forum.

How often have I read this before? The “I’m just a skeptic/agnostic/whatsoever” – stuff? It doesn’t exactly sound convincing.

Because it doesn't fit Roberto's bubble.

1. The killers went to great lengths to erase the physical traces of their crimes.

A convenient story. They knew in advance from 1941-45 exactly where investigators would look and what methods would be used, right down to every tooth lost at the postage-stamp lot at Treblinka. Beam me up, Roberto!
:aliengray

5. Last but not least, if should be pointed out that this “where are the bodies” – argument could be used to question the occurrence of any event of mass killing in history. Regarding most atrocities of the last century, physical evidence is not more plentiful than in regard to the Nazi genocide, and documentary and eyewitness evidence are comparatively sparse. Where, for instance, are the bodies of or documentary records regarding

- the at least one million victims of the Turkish genocide of the Armenians in 1915;
- the at least four million victims of Stalin’s forced famine in the Ukraine in 1932/33;
- the victims of Allied bombing in Germany, estimated by the West German government at ca. 600,000;
- the victims of the expulsions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War II, estimated by the West German government at ca. 2 million ?

These examples, the last three of which those who profess themselves to be “skeptical” or “agnostic” in regard to Nazis crimes never put in question, make clear that their “where are the bodies” – argument makes no sense at all.

Comparing a whole basket of fruit and nuts... This skeptic has never made much fuss over any of the above claims, nor the 5.1 million Jews claimed from population statistics.

However, the claim that over 700 thousand were taken to Treblinka and gassed, buried and burned there begs for some physical evidence.

There was an interesting discussion on the Codoh board called "BELZEC: the dig that wasn't." I'll supply the link as soon as the board is running again.

Basically, the Greuelpropagandists know that with the Iron Curtain down, reasonable people are disinclined more and more to believe fantastic and inconsistent stories, so they are going to have to provide some evidence. The result is a little outraged prestidigitation.

"Damage Control!"

But ultimately, if it doesn't hold water the big behemoth will go down. Then the whole Truth will out.

"Man the pumps!"
:wink:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4505
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Re: SMOKE AND MIRRORS...

Post by Roberto » 24 Jun 2002 21:54

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:
comrade seinfeld wrote:I must make it clear that I am not a Holocaust revisionist (or denier, if you like!), but a Holocaust agnostic, so that I am trying to find out the facts in order to reach a conclusive perspective (which I am inclined to think is a Utopian notion, as everyone concerned with it seems to have an ideological agenda!), which is why I would like to ask questions and make comments in this forum.

How often have I read this before? The “I’m just a
skeptic/agnostic/whatsoever” – stuff? It doesn’t exactly sound convincing.


Scott Smith wrote:Because it doesn't fit Roberto's bubble..


No. Because it is one of the staple stances of ideologically motivated propagandists.

Roberto wrote:1. The killers went to great lengths to erase the physical traces of their crimes.


Scott Smith wrote:A convenient story.


The very simple facts, proven by the depositions of perpetrators and witnesses at various trials. How about doing some serious reading, Reverend? Without ideological blindfolds, that is.

Scott Smith wrote:They knew in advance from 1941-45 exactly where investigators would look and what methods would be used, right down to every tooth lost at the postage-stamp lot at Treblinka.


They tried to erase all physical traces of their crimes, which involved crushing whatever parts of the bodies were not destroyed by fire, sieving the results and crushing again what remained in the sieves. Enough was left behind to roughly establish the number of people killed, however. How many whole dead bodies fit into a burial area of ca. 20,000 square meters like they had at Treblinka, where human remains were found to a depth of 7.5 meters? How many as ashes and other partial remains? Let's see some calculations, Reverend.

Roberto wrote:5. Last but not least, if should be pointed out that this “where are the bodies” – argument could be used to question the occurrence of any event of mass killing in history. Regarding most atrocities of the last century, physical evidence is not more plentiful than in regard to the Nazi genocide, and documentary and eyewitness evidence are comparatively sparse. Where, for instance, are the bodies of or documentary records regarding

- the at least one million victims of the Turkish genocide of the Armenians in 1915;
- the at least four million victims of Stalin’s forced famine in the Ukraine in 1932/33;
- the victims of Allied bombing in Germany, estimated by the West German government at ca. 600,000;
- the victims of the expulsions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War II, estimated by the West German government at ca. 2 million ?

These examples, the last three of which those who profess themselves to be “skeptical” or “agnostic” in regard to Nazis crimes never put in question, make clear that their “where are the bodies” – argument makes no sense at all.


Scott Smith wrote:Comparing a whole basket of fruit and nuts... This skeptic has never made much fuss over any of the above claims, nor the 5.1 million Jews claimed from population statistics.


What makes this "skeptic" think that I was talking to him?

But as he picked up the issue, he is invited to answer the question: What is the physical or other evidence to the mentioned mass killings, Reverend?

Scott Smith wrote:However, the claim that over 700 thousand were taken to Treblinka and gassed, buried and burned there begs for some physical evidence.


Nonsense. First of all, the physical evidence is there and was assessed by the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland. Second thing, it is possible to establish the death toll of Treblinka by documentary and eyewitness evidence alone. Can Smith explain, for instance, what became of the 713,555 Jews from the General Government who, according to the Höfle memorandum, ended up at Treblinka until 31.12.1942?

The Höfle memorandum, as intercepted and translated by the British decoding service at Bletchley Park:

13/15. OLQ de OMQ 1005 83 234 250

State Secret!

To the Senior Commander of the Security Police [and the Security Service], for the attention of SS Obersturmbannfuhrer HEIM, CRACOW.

Subject: fortnightly report Einsatz REINHART.
Reference: radio telegram therefrom.


recorded arrivals until December 31, 42,

L [Lublin] 12,761,
B [Belzec] 0,
S [Sobibor] 515,
T [Treblinka] 10 335 [,]

together 23 611

sum total…[as per] December 31, 42,

L 24 733,
B 434 508,
S 101 370,
T 71 355, read: 713 555]

together 1 274 166

SS and Police Leader Lublin, HOFLE, Sturmbannfuhrer


Scott Smith wrote:There was an interesting discussion on the Codoh board called "BELZEC: the dig that wasn't." I'll supply the link as soon as the board is running again.


Do that, Reverend. I took part in the discussion and thoroughly exposed your buddies' nonsense. Much of my last post is actually based on the contents of that thread.

Scott Smith wrote:Basically, the Greuelpropagandists know that with the Iron Curtain down, reasonable people are disinclined more and more to believe fantastic and inconsistent stories, so they are going to have to provide some evidence. The result is a little outraged prestidigitation.


I've got news for you, Believer. The first is that the "Greuelpropagandists" exist only in your own twisted little mind. The second is that the same applies to the "fantastic and inconsistent stories" you mumble about (I strongly doubt you can demonstrate a single inconsistency). The third is that evidence - physical, documentary and eyewitness evidence - is plentiful and has been thoroughly assessed by historians and by criminal justice authorities at various trials. The fourth is that you're probably making a bloody fool out of yourself for the umpteenth time with your hollow tirade. Care to give my good old questions about the Reinhard(t) extermination camps and the fate of the deportees another try, Reverend?

Scott Smith wrote:Damage Control!"


Is what the Reverend badly feels in need of, no doubt. How else can we explain this uncalled-for propaganda parade?

Scott Smith wrote:But ultimately, if it doesn't hold water the big behemoth will go down.


The pious wish of the True Believer. Sounds rather desperate - unless of course the "behemoth" he's talking about are his own articles of faith.

Scott Smith wrote:Then the whole Truth will out.


The truth in the sense of facts proven by conclusive evidence has already come out, to the Reverend's great distress. And the propaganda nonsense he calls "Truth" never will. Tough luck, my boy.

Scott Smith wrote:"Man the pumps!"


With so much inconvenient evidence around, that's what those "Revisionist" freaks are doing all the time, as a matter of fact.
Last edited by Roberto on 07 May 2003 15:48, edited 1 time in total.

schroedinger
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: 17 May 2002 18:32
Location: Germany

Re: Holocaust mass graves?

Post by schroedinger » 24 Jun 2002 23:46

Silent wrote:
comrade seinfeld wrote:If there was a Holocaust then where are the mass graves in Poland and Nazi-occupied Russia (i.e., the then Soviet Union).


There have been found a number of mass graves. In the case of the three camps of the so-called "Aktion Reinhard" (Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec) the mass graves are inside the camps.

comrade seinfeld wrote:I have heard of the uncovering of mass graves at Belzec, but, as I understand it, the quantity of bodies uncovered is not consistent with the conventional Holocaust account in terms of the numbers of inmates supposedly involved.


The surveys at Belzec in 1997 - 1999 directed by Prof. Andrzej Kola (archaeologist of the University of Torun) found 33 mass graves within the former camp borders. The research was done by core drilling probes within a grid of five meter distance between each drilling location; in total 2227 drills were made.

The main purpose of this survey was to locate the grave sites:

Source:
ANDRZEJ KOLA, BELZEC. THE NAZI CAMP FOR JEWS IN THE LIGHT OF ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOURCES. Excavations 1997-1999.
ISBN 83-905590-6-4.
p.8-11

The architectural elements commemorating the camp in Belzec, mainly as the enclosure and the monument require changes at present. The Council of Protection of Memory of Combat and Martyrdom (Rada Ochrony Pamieci Walk i Meczenstwa - ROPWiM) in Warsaw together with the United States Holocaust Memorial Council and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington have decided to take up new actions to commemorate the camp. The general purpose, essential for the project works taken up already, is to obtain the basic knowledge of how the camp had been planned, particularly to establish where the mass graves had been located. Taking under consideration the fact of lack of surface traces of camp architectural structure (they were totally covered up by the Germans in 1943-44) and mixing the earth surface structures made after the war, as a result of robbery, the information about the camp could be obtained only by archaeological recognition.

Directed by that need The Council of Protection of Memory of Combat and Martyrdom turned in 1997 to the Archaeological and Ethnological Institute of Nicholas Copernicus University in Torun with a request of conducting probing archaeological works at the territory of the camp in Belzec. The excavation started in autumn 1997 and was carried on in spring and autumn 1998 and in autumn 1999 . The result of the excavation works was a detailed archaeological documentation together with the basic report delivered to The Council of Protection of Memory of Struggle and Martyrdom as to the principal, together with the preliminary reports. The other, non archaeological documentation collected simultaneously were chemical analysis and microscope studies of samples taken during the probing works. They were made to verify the conclusions emerging from archaeological analysis .



comrade seinfeld wrote:Also, I would imagine that if there were any mass graves that could be attributed to the Nazis the communist governments would have been only too eager to point this out to the world; but, as far as I know, there was never been any uncovering of mass graves, which would seem strange in terms of the conventional Holocaust account of the massive number of Nazi victims.


There have been excavations in Treblinka shortly after the war.

Silent wrote:
comrade seinfeld wrote:Of course, there are many factors to be taken into account in regard to the Holocaust, such as what documentation is available, or eyewitness accounts; but I think it would be useful if there was some concrete evidence in the form of the forensic evidence of mass graves -- perhaps there are reasons that I am not aware of which make this impossible?



Good point. We had exactly this discussion between me (former Thorwald) and Roberto Muehlenkamp. A scientific forensic examination at the place of the mass killings is still be recommended, independent of other evidence material. The actual question is not dealing with the historical existence of the Holocaust, but with the scientific background of its own exploration.


As already has been pointed out, there has been such scientific research. This is the summary of Prof. Kola regarding the grave pits:

Source:
ANDRZEJ KOLA, BELZEC. THE NAZI CAMP FOR JEWS IN THE LIGHT OF ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOURCES. Excavations 1997-1999.
ISBN 83-905590-6-4.
p.38-40

Planigraphy of the graves reported in the area of all the death camp in Belzec, and their general number of 33, indicates clearly that they were located in two zones of different character. The first zone, probably the older one, contained the graves appearing one close to the other in western and north-western part of the camp. The witness S. Kozak who worked in the group of prisoners building the gas chamber used in the first stage of Jews' extermination , informs about the presence of the mass grave, prepared by Germans in the area of the northern camp corner. That was probably the place, where they started burying the victims. Generally 21 graves were reported in that area, which makes nearly 64% of their whole number in that site. The largest graves were also registered in that part. One can not exclude, however, that several of them (reported as graves of a big volume) were previously some separated smaller ones, which borders mixed either during covering them with soil, covering the traces of the camp up after closing the camp down or result of burglary searches after the war. During the works archaeologists reported the cultural layers with the intensive changes of the ground surface, reaching as deep as about 3,00 m, which were difficult to interpret explicitly. The difficulty is additionally caused by too small density of probing drills as a base of interpretation. The present knowledge of these structures, in spite of lack of very characteristic features, typical for grave contents, can not let us regard those relicts as traces of camp buildings, either. These doubts could be probably explained during archaeological studies of the area, preferably of a wide scope character.

The other zone of the graves appearance takes up the north-eastern area of the camp. 12 graves were reported here (about 36% of the total number), with more regular forms (mainly of a rectangle view), which differed from one another in size and appearing in significant scattering. In the area of those graves, transformation of ground, characteristic for the first zone does not occur at all, or very rarely. The other parts of the camp are free from graves.

The majority of graves situated here reached the depth between 4,00-5,00 m. One can suppose that those depths were regarded as the optimum ones; underground waters appeared at bigger depths. In the first zone, as we can suppose, connecting smaller neighbouring graves into bigger ones by destroying earth walls separating them was observed. That is why the bigger graves show clearly former original pits. The structures of grave contents in both zones are similarly varied. One can report graves filled with bodies in wax-fat transformation (in bottom parts of the ditches, as a rule), over which there are layers of body ashes and charcoal. Similar structure was reported in 10 graves (No 1, 3, 4, 10, 13, 20, 25, 27, 28, 32). In the rest of the graves in number of 23 only the layers of crematory ashes as well as charcoal placed on a few levels with sandy ground were observed . In non crematory graves, there was often a layer of lime placed over the bodies, which purpose was to quicken the process of decomposition of the corpses.

The total surface of the burial pits at the area of the camp amounts about 0,52 ha, which states barely 9% of the camp territory in the present, enclosed shape. The total volume of the graves is estimated for about 21000 m³. The big number contains mainly ashes of bodies, which made killing and burying hundreds of thousands of people in one place possible.


It should be noted that other publications about the Belzec research like the report of Mike Tregenza which Roberto cited from the Nizkor website were preliminary reports written during the ongoing work. The publication of Prof. Kola differs from the Tregenza paper in some figures; also the report of Prof. Kola did not contain an estimate of the number of corpses in the mass graves.


Another team led by Prof. Kola also did research at Sobibor using the same methods as in Belzec. They found seven mass graves; the work there still is going on as far as I know; see:
http://www.auschwitz.org.pl/html/eng/ak ... p?rok=2001
(scroll down until the item "Evidence of Mass Graves in Sobibor")
Last edited by schroedinger on 25 Jun 2002 07:41, edited 1 time in total.

Xanthro
Member
Posts: 2803
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 00:11
Location: Pasadena, CA

Post by Xanthro » 25 Jun 2002 02:02

Roberto wrote:
comrade seinfeld wrote:
I must make it clear that I am not a Holocaust revisionist (or denier, if you like!), but a Holocaust agnostic, so that I am trying to find out the facts in order to reach a conclusive perspective (which I am inclined to think is a Utopian notion, as everyone concerned with it seems to have an ideological agenda!), which is why I would like to ask questions and make comments in this forum.

How often have I read this before? The &#8220;I&#8217;m just a skeptic/agnostic/whatsoever&#8221; &#8211; stuff? It doesn&#8217;t exactly sound convincing.


Because it doesn't fit Roberto's bubble.

Quote:
1. The killers went to great lengths to erase the physical traces of their crimes.


A convenient story. They knew in advance from 1941-45 exactly where investigators would look and what methods would be used, right down to every tooth lost at the postage-stamp lot at Treblinka. Beam me up, Roberto!


The idiocy of some of these replies is outstanding. It's now a convienent story that the perpetrators of the murders tried to hide their crimes. There is more than compelling evidence to support this, it's religious denial to even attempt to argue otherwise.

As to the notion that there is some type of logical fallacy that would make it require some conspiracy to hide the evidence, shows an outlandish lack of reason. In covering up an event, it's obvious that in doing so, that future investigations of the event will be affected. It can hardly be otherwise. The people covering up murder, didn't need to know where future investigators would look, because they would either look where the crimes took place, or they wouldn't. If they looked in the wrong areas, which happens with the holocaust as with even investigation whether historical or not, they'd find nothing. If they looked in the right areas, the people covering up crimes would hope that their efforts would obliterate most of the evidence.

While the Nazi did a good job of covering up the Holocaust evidence, they couldn't erase it all. Mass graves are still being found.

Even the first poster of this thread starts off with an inane thesis, that mass murder requires mass graves. That's simply false.

It's obvious and logically false, so the only reason to even post it is to somehow blow a cloud of darkness of the light of truth. The poster knew the premise was false, and posted it to obfuscate the issue.

The whole, "I'm not a holocaust denier" is simply a weak attempt to feign innocence of exactly what is delibertly put forward.

Xanthro

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

ICEBERG RIGHT AHEAD...

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Jun 2002 03:52

I see the True Believers have been rattled from their dens... :mrgreen:

Nobody is disputing that there might be some bodies. That tells us nothing. The question is how many. And that can't be determined by a few core samples. Some of the testimony described trains unloaded with half of the bodies dead-on-arrival, which suggests body-disposal. :wink: Big deal. What we want to know is if the remains are consistent with the claims of mass-murder, particularly with gassings. At Treblinka we haven't even found the mass-grave yet. Nada.

I see we are back to the Communist Commission report again. No quantification of forensic anthropological evidence and nothing verifiable. We might as well have the campsite under the Iron Curtain again! This is so laughable as to question the motives of those who would trump it as any kind of evidence at all.

The question is not that there was some body-disposal or even mass-murder there but how much, and whether the physical evidence is consistent with the gassing mythomania.
:aliengray

CLICK to Affirm!
Image

Charles Bunch
Member
Posts: 846
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 20:03
Location: USA

Re: More Mindless Denial

Post by Charles Bunch » 25 Jun 2002 05:44

I see the True Believers have been rattled from their dens... :


I see Mr. Smith is still trafficking in his embarrassing brand of impotent denial of proven history!

Nobody is disputing that there might be some bodies. That tells us nothing.


Of it tells a great deal.

The evidence presented for Belzec indicates 33 mass graves with over 21,000 cubic feet of remains.

Now let's do what historians do and add this to other known evidence.

Belzec was constructed beginning in the late Fall of 1941. In March of 1942 Goebbels made the following entry in his diary.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/goe ... ts-02.html

Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.

The former Gauleiter of Vienna, who is to carry this measure through, is doing it with considerable circumspection and according to a method that does not attract too much attention. A judgment is being visited upon the Jews that, while barbaric, is fully deserved by them. The prophesy which the Fuehrer made about them for having brought on a new world war is beginning to come true in a most terrible manner. One must not be sentimental in these matters. If we did not fight the Jews, they would destroy us. It's a life-and-death struggle between the Aryan race and the Jewish bacillus. No other government and no other regime would have the strength for such a global solution of this question. Here, too, the Fuehrer is the undismayed champion of a radical solution necessitated by conditions and therefore inexorable. Fortunately a whole series of possibilities presents itself for us in wartime that would be denied us in peacetime. We shall have to profit by this.

The ghettoes that will be emptied in the cities of the General Government now will be refilled with Jews thrown out of the Reich. This process is to be repeated from time to time. There is nothing funny in it for the Jews, and the fact that Jewry's representatives in England and America are today organizing and sponsoring the war against Germany must be paid for dearly by its representatives in Europe - and that's only right.

(end quote)

Goebbels is describing the first stage of the Final Solution, Operation Reinhard run by Odilo Globocnik.

The Jews of the ghettoes are being emptied, "evacuated" to Belzec. Information on the deportations can be seen here, note that the deportations begin in March of 1942, and originate in Lublin.

http://holocaust-info.dk/

So we have the deportations of hundreds of thousands of Jews to a camp which was not a labor camp. It had no barracks to accomodate the deportees. The Jews were never sent anywhere from this camp. We have Goebbels describing a process which will result in the immediate death of 60%. We have the testimony of camp personnel to the gassing of Jews upon arrival. And we now have 33 mass graves with 21,000 cubic meters of human remains.

Yet Mr. Smith has the temerity to say the mass graves tell us nothing! Of course what they tell us, when combined with the other evidence, is that a planned extermination program was undertaken, of substantial proportions, and that camp personnel testimony of massive, deliberate murder of arriving Jews was indeed true.

The question is how many.


No, that's not the question. Death tolls in genocides are not computed by physical evidence. But massive graves as found at Belzec are in line with the evidence long known about what happened there.

And that can't be determined by a few core samples. Some of the testimony described trains unloaded with half of the bodies dead-on-arrival, which suggests body-disposal. :wink: Big deal. What we want to know is if the remains are consistent with the claims of mass-murder, particularly with gassings. At Treblinka we haven't even found the mass-grave yet. Nada.


God, look at the desperate flailing about Mr. Smith engages in!

The size of the graves were determined. The cause of death was determined by other evidence, evidence which Smith likewise attempts to deal with by denying it. And those who excavated mass graves at Treblinka in 1945 will be surprised to hear we haven't found them yet. But Mr. Smith is known to step over the bounds of truth when it is necessary to maintain his irrational beliefs.

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

HOLY Relics, aka Other Evidence...

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Jun 2002 06:22

Charles Bunch wrote:
I see the True Believers have been rattled from their dens... :

I see Mr. Smith is still trafficking in his embarrassing brand of impotent denial of proven history!

Hi Charles! Nice to hear from my favorite reliquarian. I know a rattler's teeth always grow back, even if he's bitten more than he can chew.
:wink:

Why don't you show me a piece of the real Ark and we can discuss more "proven history."
:)

CLICK! Image
Last edited by Scott Smith on 25 Jun 2002 14:18, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4505
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Post by Roberto » 25 Jun 2002 12:26

Scott Smith wrote:I see the True Believers have been rattled from their dens...


That’s what I thought when I read Smith’s first post on this thread. Funny, isn’t it?

Scott Smith wrote:Nobody is disputing that there might be some bodies. That tells us nothing. The question is how many. And that can't be determined by a few core samples.


A few core samples are enough to provide the information that is essential, insofar as assessment of physical evidence is required at all to establish the facts: whether or not the size of a camp’s burial area and volume was enough to take in the number of deportees to the camp that becomes apparent from the documentary evidence.

Let us generously assume that half the Treblinka burial area (2 ha = ca. 20,000 square meters, according to the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland) was pits, the other half the space to move in between them. The pits themselves would thus have covered an area of ca. 10,000 square meters, which at a depth of 7.5 meters (the depth to which the excavators of a Polish investigation commission, presumably the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland, found human remains when digging up the ground of the camp’s burial area) means a total burial volume of 75,000 cubic meters.

How much space does a dead body occupy? That depends, of course, on whether it is the body of a male adult, a woman or a child. I’ve done some calculations in this respect and reached the following conclusions:

i) A male adult like myself, 187 cms high and with a shoulder width of 45 cms, would occupy ca. 0.25 cubic meters;
ii) A women with the measurements of my girlfriend, 160 cms high and with a shoulder width of 30 cms, would occupy ca. 0.144 cubic meters;
iii) A ten year old child, 140 cms. high and with a shoulder width of 20 cms, would occupy ca. 0.08 cubic meters;
iv) The volume of a child up to five years would never be more than 0.03 cubic meters.

The people who were taken to Treblinka consisted mostly of women, children and elderly people, considered unfit to work. I think it’s reasonable to assume that no more than 10 % of those transported there were younger adult males, 50 % were women or elderly males and 40 % were children equally divided between elder and younger ones, i.e. 20 % each.

This means that the average volume of a deportee taken to Treblinka, in cubic meters, would be the following: <(0.25 * 10) + (0.14 * 50) + (0.08 * 20) + (0.03 * 20)> / 100 = 0.12, which means that one cubic meter of burial space could take ca. 8 dead bodies and that 75,000 cubic meters could take ca. 600,000 whole bodies. The burial of 700,000 dead bodies would take 87,500 cubic meters, for 800,000 dead bodies about 100,000 cubic meters would be required and for 900,000 dead bodies 112,500 cubic meters would be needed – all feasible in view of the size of the burial area and the depth of the pits established by the Polish investigators.

Now, a large part of the bodies was never buried but burned right away, and those who had been buried were mostly disinterred and burned as well. The ashes of a human being, after the bones have been ground, fill up the volume of a shoebox, ca. 2.5 liters according to my calculations. One cubic meter is 1,000 liters, which means that 400 such shoeboxes fit into one cubic meter and 75,000 * 400 = 30,000,000 would fit into the whole assumed volume of the pits. Actually “only” 700,000 to 900,000 had to, which means that, when the burial pits were filled up with the ashes and other partial remains, alternated with layers of earth or sand, more than 99 % of their volume consisted of the latter. This in turn explains why it was impossible for the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland, in the course of its excavations on the camp, to quantify the ashes and other partial remains they found. Not all bodies were completely reduced to ashes, for sure. A huge number of skulls and burnt bone fragments remained, as did the decomposing but unburned bodies of those who had been originally buried at bottom of the pits. The Commission refrained from speculating on the quantities of remains and instead calculated the number of dead by the only method reliable under the circumstances: assessment of the documentary evidence, namely the transportation documents and reports such as the often quoted Höfle memo:

13/15. OLQ de OMQ 1005 83 234 250

State Secret!

To the Senior Commander of the Security Police [and the Security Service], for the attention of SS Obersturmbannfuhrer HEIM, CRACOW.

Subject: fortnightly report Einsatz REINHART.
Reference: radio telegram therefrom.


recorded arrivals until December 31, 42,

L [Lublin] 12,761,
B [Belzec] 0,
S [Sobibor] 515,
T [Treblinka] 10 335 [,]

together 23 611

sum total…[as per] December 31, 42,

L 24 733,
B 434 508,
S 101 370,
T 71 355, read: 713 555]

together 1 274 166

SS and Police Leader Lublin, HOFLE, Sturmbannfuhrer


According to this document, 713,555 Jews from the Polish General Government were taken to Treblinka until 31.12.1942. Again the question:

If you think they were not all murdered, Mr. Smith, can you tell us what happened to them?

Scott Smith wrote:Some of the testimony described trains unloaded with half of the bodies dead-on-arrival, which suggests body-disposal. Big deal.


Big deal indeed. Half the deportees dying during transport would mean more than 350,000 from the contingents mentioned in the Höfle memo dead upon arrival. That’s quite a lot of dead bodies, so much that it smacks of organized and systematic mass murder. And what, my dear Reverend, did in your opinion happen to the other half?

Scott Smith wrote:What we want to know is if the remains are consistent with the claims of mass-murder, particularly with gassings.


Who is “we”, Mr. Smith? We historians and reasonable folks know from assessment of the documentary evidence and the established size and volume of the Treblinka burial area that large-scale mass murder took place there. “We” imbecile “Revisionist” whiners, on the other hand, don’t want to know a damn thing but merely intend to make a bloody fuss out of trifles to defend our Faith against inconvenient evidence.

Scott Smith wrote:At Treblinka we haven't even found the mass-grave yet.


We haven’t found a mass grave, no. We have found a burial area 20,000 square meters long and wide, where human remains were dug up to a depth of 7.5 meters. That’s nothing, really, is it?

Scott Smith wrote:Nada.


Is what Smith seems to have underneath his skull. At least when Faith deprives him of the capacity to use his brain.

Scott Smith wrote:I see we are back to the Communist Commission report again.


Communist or not, the report contains all essential information.

Scott Smith wrote:No quantification of forensic anthropological evidence


Considering that, as demonstrated above, the human remains made up less than 1 % of the earth and sand they were mingled with in such a way as to make most of them barely distinguishable – especially after large numbers of local “prospectors” had dug the area up and around for months on end in what became known as the “Treblinka Gold Rush” - how could the Commission have accurately quantified the remains they detected? Smith still has to show us an archaeological method that might help to bring about such quantification.

Scott Smith wrote:and nothing verifiable.


A little more detail would be nice to have, for sure, but the detail provided by the Central Commission’s description is nevertheless enough to do the ballpark calculations that I have done, see above. Anything wrong with my calculations, Mr. Smith?

Scott Smith wrote:We might as well have the campsite under the Iron Curtain again!


It would in fact not make much of a difference. The documentary and eyewitness evidence alone are so conclusive that archaeological investigation, while nice to have under a “the more we know the better” perspective, are by no means necessary to prove beyond reasonable doubt that hundreds of thousands of people were murdered at Treblinka. Such investigations, which were carried out at Belzec in 1997/98, would also be nice to have for another reason: to watch the silly reaction of the “Revisionist” whiners when confronted with the physical evidence they keep howling for. One of the idiots knew no better than to suggest that said investigation never took place and the detailed descriptions of the Belzec mass graves available online were invented by the archaeologists and historians who were part of the team. Imbecility indeed knows no boundaries when it comes to defending Faith.

Scott Smith wrote: This is so laughable as to question the motives of those who would trump it as any kind of evidence at all.


The only thing laughable here is Smith’s empty howling, and the only motives questionable are those of someone who keeps uttering such howls despite his woeful inability to provide consistent answers to very simple questions. Questions such as

1. Why were there so many dead bodies at Treblinka in October of 1942 that they could not be sufficiently buried, thus creating a stench that befouled the air as far as Ostrow, 20 kilometers away, which led the local Wehrmacht commander to raise an official complaint about that stench?

2. How many whole bodies, and how many bodies reduced to ashes and other partial remains, fit into pits 7.5 meters deep in the burial area more than 20,000 square meters long and wide that was found after the war by the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland? Was there room enough for, say, the 713,555 Jews from the General Government taken to Treblinka until 31.12.1942, according to the Höfle memorandum, or was there not?

3. If the above mentioned 713,555 Jews were not murdered at Treblinka, as Smith contends, what explanation of their fate can Smith offer and demonstrate?

I found the “interesting” Codoh thread that Smith mentioned in his post before the one here commented, by the way. It happens to be the same that contains the following instructive statement by Smith’s admired mentor:

Keep the Faith fellow revisionists. The Nazis and the SS were the good guys--but the anti-Nazis and the anti-revisionists dare not admit it for fear of losing their fabulous, ill gotten gains from the war.


“Hoaxbuster” Friedrich Paul Berg on the Codoh discussion forum.
http://www.codoh.org/dcforum/DCForumID9/143.html#10

A interesting coincidence, isn’t it? The other “Revisionist” utterances on that thread are not much better than the one quoted above, however. Whoever feels like laughing a bit is encouraged to read them.

Charles Bunch
Member
Posts: 846
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 20:03
Location: USA

Re: HOLY Relics, aka Other Evidence...

Post by Charles Bunch » 25 Jun 2002 14:12

Scott Smith wrote:
Charles Bunch wrote:
I see the True Believers have been rattled from their dens... :

I see Mr. Smith is still trafficking in his embarrassing brand of impotent denial of proven history!

Hi Charles! Nice to hear from my favorite reliquarian. I know a rattler's teeth always grow back, even if he's bitten more than he can chew.
:wink:

Why don't you show me a piece of the real Ark and we can discuss more "proven history."

Why don't you learn something about the history of the Holocaust so your posts would have some content, and your denial would be less embarrassing!

But Mr. Smith doesn't mind being embarrassed.

Sailor
Banned
Posts: 55
Joined: 20 Apr 2002 03:41
Location: Benicia, Ca, USA

Post by Sailor » 26 Jun 2002 02:26

From Roberto:

we now know the exact number of Jews from the Polish General Government who were transported to that place in order to be killed there:

And then Roberto quotes a radio message from SS Sturmbannführer Höfle to SS Obersturmbannführer Helm about the number of new arrivals in the Reinhart camps, intercepted by the British on Dec. 31, 1942. It seems that Roberto reposts this message at least every second week on this forum.

I think it was Irving who first came up with this on his site.

I have to ask: Is the message legit? The message was probably sent in coded morse code. Before it was sent by the communication people it was elaborated in written form by the sender, also after being received the message was typed and submitted to the recepient. Were these documents ever found?

And then Roberto's addition
in order to be killed there

on what is this based? This is sheer speculation on Roberto's half. The radio message quoted says absolutely nothing about any killing.

Charles Bunch
Member
Posts: 846
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 20:03
Location: USA

Post by Charles Bunch » 26 Jun 2002 02:44

From Roberto
we now know the exact number of Jews from the Polish General Government who were transported to that place in order to be killed there:


Sailor
And then Roberto quotes a radio message from SS Sturmbannführer Höfle to SS Obersturmbannführer Helm about the number of new arrivals in the Reinhart camps, intercepted by the British on Dec. 31, 1942. It seems that Roberto reposts this message at least every second week on this forum.
I think it was Irving who first came up with this on his site.


You think wrong.

Peter Witte and Stephen Tyas wrote about the document in the Winter 2001 issue of the journal_Holocaust and Genocide Studies_. I posted the document to alt.revisionism in December 2001. Some time later I posted it here.

Sailor
I have to ask: Is the message legit.

Ah, another original argument from a mindless denier!

Sailor
Banned
Posts: 55
Joined: 20 Apr 2002 03:41
Location: Benicia, Ca, USA

Post by Sailor » 26 Jun 2002 03:49

Robertchen, ach du Süßer:
Two of the survivors, Rudolf Reder and Chaim Hirszman, testified about their experiences at Belzec, Reder even published a report in Cracow in 1946. (Michael Tregenza, Belzec - Das vergessene Lager der Holocaust, in : Jahrbuch Fritz Bauer Institut, 2000[/I]). Extracts from Reder's report can be found in the expert opinion submitted by Prof. Browning at the Irving-Lipstadt trial:


Where can we find the copies of the crossexaminations of these people? And the names of the lawyers who did the examination, and where and when?
It seems that normally 'causters don't like crossexams, avoid them like the pest. The few times these type of witnesses were crossexamined it always turned into a desaster.


And Tregenza: didn't Michael Mills in a previous post in his eloquent and suave way not straighten you out on this fine gentleman? You are not trying again to bs us with this now, Robertchen?

And Prof. Browning. He did not do too good in the Zündel trial, now, did he? An expert? Of my!

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”