Making lamps out of jewis skin?

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
_The_General_
Member
Posts: 1532
Joined: 08 Jul 2003 10:01
Location: Netherlands

Making lamps out of jewis skin?

Post by _The_General_ » 15 Feb 2004 14:26

A friend of mine told me that the ss made lamps out of the skin of jews, i don't really believe it, what do you guyst think?

User avatar
_The_General_
Member
Posts: 1532
Joined: 08 Jul 2003 10:01
Location: Netherlands

Post by _The_General_ » 15 Feb 2004 14:32

Ilse Koch made lamps like that accourding to some people but no evidence was found

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScr ... eKoch.html

Omega-Force
Member
Posts: 111
Joined: 15 Mar 2003 06:40
Location: Earth

Post by Omega-Force » 15 Feb 2004 22:25

..
Last edited by Omega-Force on 06 Apr 2004 06:05, edited 1 time in total.

Dan
Member
Posts: 8429
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:06
Location: California

Post by Dan » 15 Feb 2004 22:58

There were many non-Jewish people there, including Russian POW's which infact the shrunken heads were of the Russian POW's, but since they were not German their treatment was not a warcrime according to some of our fellow forum members.
Just typical slander. Those shrunken heads were made with goat skin and such.

User avatar
RACPISA
Member
Posts: 836
Joined: 27 Apr 2003 18:21
Location: Grand Rapids, MI

Post by RACPISA » 15 Feb 2004 23:11

Omega-Force wrote:
a Jew who is tattooed cannot be buried in consecrated ground
I don't mean to go off topic, but does that rule apply to Holocaust survivors with numbers on their arms or not?

Omega-Force
Member
Posts: 111
Joined: 15 Mar 2003 06:40
Location: Earth

Post by Omega-Force » 15 Feb 2004 23:43

..
Last edited by Omega-Force on 06 Apr 2004 06:05, edited 1 time in total.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8988
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Post by michael mills » 15 Feb 2004 23:45

It is a canard.

The facts are as follows:

An SS doctor was pursuing a research project based on the thesis that tattooing was a sign of membership in a population group that had a hereditary tendency to criminality.

The project was accepted by the Concentration Camp Inspectorate, part of the WVHA, and an order was sent to all concentration camps to collect specimens of tattooed skin from deceased prisoners who were "habitual criminals" (Berufsverbrecher - BV). The order is preserved, so there is documentary evidence for the project.

It is believed that the aim was to display specimens of tattooed skin in a proposed Museum of Criminality. For that purpose, particularly egregious examples of tattooing, particularly of a sexual nature, were required, as indications of a criminal nature.

Whether prisoners with tattoos that met the above criteria were selected and killed specifically for the purpose of collecting their tattooed skin is unknown, although that accusation was made by concentration-camp survivors. Given the high death rate in the camps, it may not have been necessary.

When the staff of Buchenwald concentration camp feld in April 1945, leaving the camp under the control of a group of Communist prisoners who had for a long time been running a sort of underground parallel administration with the connivance of the lazy camp commandant, the prisoners found some specimens of tattooed skin that were still in the camp medical block, not yet having been sent to the WVHA at Oranienburg.

The prisoners also found in the abandoned living-quarters of the camp staff various items made of leather, eg gloves, leather-bound books, and a lamp with a shade made of parchment.

They also found a couple of shrunken heads; where exactly they were found remains a mystery.

When units of the US Army arrived a few days later, the Communist prisoner bosses showed them all the above items, the specimens of tattoed skin, the lampshade and other leather items, and the shrunken heads. They calimed that all the items were manufactured from human skin, taken from murdered prisoners.

The specimens of tattooed skin were tested and found to be of human origin, consistent with the documentary evidence that the concentration camp administrations were collecting such specimens.

So far as I know, there is no evidence of the other items having been tested; I have not seen reports of such tests, only of the tests relating to the pieces of tattooed skin. There is therefore no proof that the parchment used in the manufacture of the various items, the lampshade, the gloves, the purses, the book-covers etc, were of human origin; in my opinion it is unlikely, being a surmise derived from the fact that specimens of tattooed human skin were indeed collected.

John McCloy, the administrator of the US Zone of Occupation, later stated that the lampshade and other articles were found to be made of goatskin, but I do not know whether tests were actually done to determine that.

In the controversy over this issue, the collection of tattooed human skin, which really happened, is often confused with the unknown origin of the parchment from which items found in the Buchenwald camp were manufactured. It is necessary to distinguish clearly between them. Sometimes the confusion is deliberate, perpetrated by the well-known bloodhounds who like to go butt-sniffing for "denial".

As for the two shrunken heads that were put on display to the US personnel who arrived at the camp, their origin is unknown. The Communist prisoner bosses claimed that they had been manufactured in the camp; one version is that they were the heads of Polish prisoners, another that they were the heads of Soviet POWs.

One story is that an SS doctor in the camp had acquired knowledge of the process of shrinking heads, either from South America or Melanesia, and had experimented with it. To my knowledge, no person has ever been identified as having carried out such experiments, nor has a thorough investigation been done. It is therefore quite possible that the two shrunken heads originally belonged to someone's macabre collection of curiosities from South America or the South Seas.

Finally, there is no proof that Ilse Koch was ever involved in the process of collecting tattooed skin from prisoners, apart from malicious claims made by the Communist prisoners. There were many wives of concentration-camp staff living in the married quarters attached to the camps, and there is no evidence of any of them having got involved in the administration of the camps, which would have been completely contrary to regulations, since they had no official position. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that Ilse Koch, as the wife of the camp commandant, had any involvement.

Dan
Member
Posts: 8429
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:06
Location: California

Post by Dan » 16 Feb 2004 00:14

Omega-Force wrote:
Just typical slander. Those shrunken heads were made with goat skin and such.
Sure, you were there and saw it all didnt you Dan, just like when you saw my grandfather at Jedwabne burning Jewish people alive huh?
Well, I think you're grandfather hated Jews, and if given the opportunity would have killed them after the Soviet were chased out, if indeed your grandfather was an ethnic Pole living in the vicinity of Jedwabne.
perpetrated by the well-known bloodhounds who like to go butt-sniffing for "denial".
Yes, and I think this sentence applies to you.

And as an aside, I have, unlike the vast majority of this forum, seen shrunken heads and mummified bodies in the Menyamia provence of Papua New Guinea. I even have friends who who have tasted human flesh, and taught me how to make mummies using slow fires and clay.

There aren't too many of them nowdays, as the wild pigs love to eat mummies.

Dan
Member
Posts: 8429
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:06
Location: California

Post by Dan » 16 Feb 2004 00:23

And yes, one of these days, I'll report my second hand stories of Allied air crews bailing out and being either eaten or buried in the sacred shrubs called "Tanket" in the Eastern Highlands Provence of PNG.

Omega-Force
Member
Posts: 111
Joined: 15 Mar 2003 06:40
Location: Earth

Post by Omega-Force » 16 Feb 2004 00:40

..
Last edited by Omega-Force on 06 Apr 2004 06:06, edited 1 time in total.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8988
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Post by michael mills » 16 Feb 2004 12:16

Omega-Farce wrote:
What in the hell does this mean???? lets see some sources.
It means that the bloodhounds who like to go butt-sniffing for "denial" will often quote the results of the tests performed on the three pieces of tattooed skin, which showed them to be of human origin, as proof that lampshades and other articles were manufactured from human skin.

Of course it does nothing of the kind. All it does is confirm that specimens of tattooed human skin were collected, and the documentary evidence shows why they were collected. But there is no evidence that any of the specimens of human skin were ever made into lampshades or other articles.

As for sources, I suggest Omega-Farce consult the link posted by "The General"; you will find it very informative.

alf
Member
Posts: 1343
Joined: 09 Oct 2003 10:45
Location: Australia

Post by alf » 16 Feb 2004 13:03

As for sources, I suggest Omega-Farce consult the link posted by "The General"; you will find it very informative
.

The link to Dachau scrapbook informative? it is certainly well written but has a definite revisonist agenda and does not present all the facts. concerning dear Ilse, she is portrayed as a victim and the witness suspect. Its called revisionism or Denialism
Dr. Sitte, who had a PhD in physics, was one of the star witnesses against Ilse Koch. He had been a prisoner at Buchenwald from September 1939 until the liberation. He testified that tattooed skin was stripped from the bodies of dead prisoners and "was often used to create lampshades, knife cases, and similar items for the SS." He told the court that it was "common knowledge" that tattooed prisoners were sent to the hospital after Ilse Koch had passed by them on work details. According to Joshua M. Greene, author of "Justice at Dachau," Dr. Sitte testified that "These prisoners were killed in the hospital and the tattooing stripped off." Dr. Sitte's testimony of "common knowledge" was just another word for hearsay testimony, which was allowed by the American Military Tribunal.

Under cross-examination, Dr. Sitte was forced to admit that he had never seen any of the lampshades allegedly made of human skin and that he had no personal knowledge of any prisoner who had been reported by Frau Koch and was then killed so that his tattooed skin could be made into a lampshade. He also admitted that the lampshade that was on the display table in the film was not the lampshade made from human skin that was allegedly delivered to Frau Koch. Apparently the most important piece of evidence, the lampshade made from human skin, was nowhere in sight during the trial.
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScr ... eKoch.html

All cleverly crafted innunedo, there is NO source document quoted at any point, only a suspect Dr (infered jewish who was caught lying) see below for examples of the cross referencing that historical documenst have.

But go to the primary source documents something dachuascrapbook avoids like the plague. There you have German witnesses speaking clearly and distinctly on the human skin collected by innocent Ilse. You will also find links to other source documents confirming the details.
International Military Tribunal "Blue Series," Vol. 3, p. 515
13 Dec. 45

of an official United States Army report describing the circumstances under which this exhibit was obtained; and that extract is set forth in Document 3420-PS, which I refer to in part. It is entitled:

"Mobile Field Interrogation Unit Number 2; PW Intelligence Bulletin; 13. Concentration Camp, Buchenwald

"Preamble. The author of this account is PW Andreas Pfaffenberger, 1 Coy, 9 Landesschützen Bn., 43 years old and of limited education. He is a butcher by trade. The substantial agreement of the details of his story with those found in PWIB (H) /LF/36 establishes the validity of his testimony. PW has not been questioned on statements which, in the light of what is known, are apparently erroneous in certain details, nor has any effort been made to alter the subjective character of the PW's account, Which he wrote without being told anything of the intelligence already known. The results of interrogation on personalities at Buchenwald have already been published (PWIB Number 2/12, item 31.).

" 'In 1939 all prisoners with tattooing on them were ordered to report to the dispensary.' "
THE PRESIDENT: Is this what Pfaffenberger said?

MR. DODD: Yes, Sir.

" 'No one knew what the purpose was; but after the tattooed prisoners had been examined, the ones with the best and most artistic specimens were kept in the dispensary and then killed by injections administered by Karl Beigs, a criminal prisoner. The corpses were then turned over to the pathological department where the desired pieces of tattooed skin were detached from the bodies and treated. The finished products were turned over to SS Standartenführer Koch's wife, who had them fashioned into lamp shades and other ornamental household articles. I myself saw such tattooed skins with various designs and legends on them, such as "Hänsel and Gretel," which one prisoner had on his knee, and designs of ships from prisoners' chests. This work was done by a prisoner named Wernerbach.'
.


http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/ ... m/t515.htm

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8988
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Post by michael mills » 16 Feb 2004 13:36

The statement by Pfaffenberger is refuted by original German documents, which explain why the tattooed skin was collected.

The documents order the pathology departments of the concentration camps to send all specimens of tattooed skin to the Concentration Camp Inspectorate at Oranienburg. In other words, the specimens of tattooed skin were being collected at Buchenwald pursuant to an order issued from a central authority, not because of the whim of Ilse Koch.

One might wonder what a member of the 9th Landesschützen Battalion was doing at Buchenwald. He cannot have been a guard, since he was not in the SS. Perhaps he had been a prisoner at one stage; but if he had been, he must have been released and subsequently drafted into the Wehrmacht.

So the whole question is, how reliable a witness was Pfaffenberger? How does he know that the pieces of tattooed skin were handed over to Ilse Koch?

If he had been a prisoner at Buchenwald, he may well have seen the pieces of tattooed human skin described by him, since we know from documentary evidence that such specimens were collected. But his claim that the specimens were handed over to Ilse Koch for making into various articles is incompatible with the evidence of original German documents which show that the specimens were sent to the Concentration Camp Inspectorate at Oranienburg.

nondescript handle
Member
Posts: 1837
Joined: 27 May 2003 00:01
Location: Berlin, Germany

Post by nondescript handle » 16 Feb 2004 16:05

michael mills wrote:[...] who were "habitual criminals" (Berufsverbrecher - BV). [...]
One small remark: Officially the acronym "BV" stood for "Befristeter Vorbeugehäftling" [temporary prevention detainee], "Berufsverbrecher" was "camp slang".
[...]He cannot have been a guard, since he was not in the SS.[...]
It wasn't unknown after 1941 that wounded Wehrmacht soldiers were temporarily assigned as concentration camp guards. That was seen as 'light duty' in their convalescent time e.g. after surgery.

Regards
Mark

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23720
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Post by David Thompson » 16 Feb 2004 17:42

If there are any more personal insults this thread will be closed.

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”