General Juin's proclamation to colonial troops to rape

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Panzermahn
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General Juin's proclamation to colonial troops to rape

Post by Panzermahn » 29 Mar 2004 11:34

Hi Caldric, David, Timo, and the rest

in the thread what to do with old war criminals, i mentioned Juin proclamation to French colonial troops in Stuggart..

I want to acknowledge i'm mistaken in this..

The proclamation was not made in Sttugart 1945, but in the valley of Liri, Italy to the french colonial troops (morrocans, blacks) that they can loot, pillage and rape italian women for 50 hours...

sorry guys for the misunderstanding...

but the french colonial troops raping in freunstadt, stuggart was the same colonial army..

I have talked with Ostuf Charlemagne and he mentioned to me, that one of the Walloon veteran friend of his had something about the proclamation...so maybe he scan to me in a few days time...

again, sorry for the confusion about stuggart and the valley of Liri

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Post by Apocalypse_Now » 31 Mar 2004 04:40

Hi Caldric, David, Timo, and the rest

in the thread what to do with old war criminals, i mentioned Juin proclamation to French colonial troops in Stuggart..

I want to acknowledge i'm mistaken in this..

The proclamation was not made in Sttugart 1945, but in the valley of Liri, Italy to the french colonial troops (morrocans, blacks) that they can loot, pillage and rape italian women for 50 hours...

sorry guys for the misunderstanding...

but the french colonial troops raping in freunstadt, stuggart was the same colonial army..

I have talked with Ostuf Charlemagne and he mentioned to me, that one of the Walloon veteran friend of his had something about the proclamation...so maybe he scan to me in a few days time...

again, sorry for the confusion about stuggart and the valley of Liri
Source please.

Rob - wssob2
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Post by Rob - wssob2 » 31 Mar 2004 04:59

again, sorry for the confusion about stuggart and the valley of Liri
Aren't "Stuggart" (Stuttgart?) and the Liri valley in different countries?

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Post by Gwynn Compton » 31 Mar 2004 07:06

France and Italy respectively.

Gwynn

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Christoph Awender
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Post by Christoph Awender » 31 Mar 2004 07:51

Gwynn Compton wrote:France and Italy respectively.

Gwynn
Actually Germany and Italy. :wink:

\Christoph

Panzermahn
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Post by Panzermahn » 31 Mar 2004 09:28

I'm waiting for Ostuf Charlemagne's Wallon veteran friend to sent me some documents relating to this proclamation..By the way, if you asked some of the Italian members of this forum, they might know something...

tomorrow i shall post to you the proclamation translated in english which is in our upcoming book, The Other Victims: Forgotten Crimes of the Allies in WW2

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DrG
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Post by DrG » 31 Mar 2004 16:30

The proclaim of Gen. Juin incited the Goumiers to attack with all their force the Axis positions in Cassino, because beyond the enemy line there was a land full of women, gold, wine, etc. An Italian text of that proclaim can be found here: http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/larchivio/juin.htm. But the historical authenticity of that proclaim isn't proven. Nevertheless the criminal behaivour of the North African troops in Ciociaria (the area beyond Cassino; see map: the triangles indicate the villages where happened the crimes) is well known and proven.
The violences and rapes started already after the occupation of Sicily, where Allied soldiers were found killed with their genitals in the mouth (a clear warning for those who raped women).
But the first 4 documented rapes, made by Marroquins of the 573th company, happened on 11 Dec. 1943 (before the fall of Cassino). Because of the lust of those troops, de Gaulle pushed for arrival of more North African prostitutes, but only 171 arrived.
But the worst crimes (plunder, murders, thousands rapes, even of men!) happened in the days following the fall of Cassino. The number of rapes is in the order of the thousands, from a maximum (probably excessive) of 60,000 to a minumum of about 10,000. Among the murders, one of the most horrible was that of don Alberto Terrilli, priest of Santa Maria di Esperia, who died after having been beaten and sodomized for hours.
The French officers, and of course the Anglo-Americans, were apalled by the behaivour of their soldiers, but often they didn't have the power (or the will) to stop them. Nevertheless, by 1945, 360 North Africans were put on trial by the French, and some were sentenced to death. To this number we have to add those executed shortly after they were discovered (for example 15 North Africans on 26 June 1944).
The barbarity of the Goumiers was comdemned openly by the "Osservatore Romano" (the newspaper of the Vatican), and it was a reason why the Pope asked the Allied commanders that only white Allied soldiers were to be allowed to stay in Rome.
After the war the Jew writer Alberto Moravia wrote a novel, "La ciociara", about the violence made on women, and a movie with the same title was made from that book by the director Vittorio de Sica (the protagonist, Sophia Loren, won the Oscar prize and was awarded also in Cannes).
Here there are two interesting articles, but in Italian language:
http://www.lastampa.it/_web/_RUBRICHE/L ... 021125.asp
http://digilander.libero.it/folgore4a/MERCI.htm

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Post by WalterS » 31 Mar 2004 17:50

Thanks for the fine post, DrG. I, too, had been looking for copy of Juin's "proclamation" but hadn't been able to find one, though my research into this issue supports what you posted: that the French Moroccan troops in Italy behaved in an appalling manner and did, in fact, commit rape and other crimes against the population.

However, as DrG posted, it appears that a number of Moroccan troops were, indeed, held accountable and punished. This, of course, is in stark contrast to German units that committed atrocities with impunity.

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Post by David Thompson » 31 Mar 2004 18:12

There is a version of Juin's proclamation, kindly translated by Rob-WSSOB, which is posted here at:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... c&start=45

Panzermahn's error in setting Juin's proclamation at Stuttgart in 1945 was pointed out shortly after he made the mistake, here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&start=60

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Post by Andreas » 31 Mar 2004 20:34

David, after reading the linked thread, I am having trouble finding any proof that General Juin did in fact make such a proclamation. That maybe because I am one of those weird people who do not immediately think something is a 'fact', just because it has appeared on the Internet. I know I belong to a quickly dieing breed.

Until we let those who are not inhibited by such considerations have the Internet though, I think that using the term 'alleged' inbetween 'Juin's' and 'proclamation' is appropriate, because otherwise this looks like potential slander of a fine soldier to me. Not that fine soldiers did not also commit warcrimes - just in this case there seems to be absolutely no proof, apart from the 'mountain of eyewitnesses' that Luca talks of. But then fails to follow up in any convincing way.

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Post by Caldric » 31 Mar 2004 21:01

I would also like to see true evidence of this alleged statement. It almost sounds like it falls into the same category as the "Toy Bombs". I have little faith in newspapers.

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...

Post by Michael Miller » 31 Mar 2004 21:09

Panzermahn~

Question about your book cover. If memory serves, that photo allegedly shows Volksdeutsche victims of Polish atrocities committed in August and/or September 1939. Is it really precise to call those particularly atrocities "Crimes of the Allies"?

~ Mike

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Post by Rob - wssob2 » 31 Mar 2004 22:50

That maybe because I am one of those weird people who do not immediately think something is a 'fact', just because it has appeared on the Internet.
ohmigosh you mean that there's stuff on the internet that ISN'T true? 8O



;)

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Post by Andreas » 31 Mar 2004 23:01

Rob - WSSOB wrote:
That maybe because I am one of those weird people who do not immediately think something is a 'fact', just because it has appeared on the Internet.
ohmigosh you mean that there's stuff on the internet that ISN'T true? 8O



;)
I am currently reading Baudolino by Umberto Eco, and it is confirming a lot about what I thought about 'truth'.

In the thread linked to by David, another poster constantly confronted you with something along the lines of 'how do you deal with these facts', when to me, there were no facts. Just speculation. Some of it more idle than other parts, granted, but essentially speculation. If I were a natural scientist, I'd probably weep at the abuse of the word 'fact'. Since I am a social scientist, I am bemused and gently shake my head at the folly of the world.

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Post by Gwynn Compton » 31 Mar 2004 23:30

Christoph Awender wrote:
Gwynn Compton wrote:France and Italy respectively.

Gwynn
Actually Germany and Italy. :wink:

\Christoph
:lol: you are of course correct, I was thinking Strasbourg. :oops:

Gwynn

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