Suquence of events leading to Pearl Harbor.

Discussions on WW2 in the Pacific and the Sino-Japanese War.
ChristopherPerrien
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Post by ChristopherPerrien » 30 Mar 2004 14:09

The Americans could read the Japanese diplomactic codes and had partially decoded the JN-25 code(10% or so) , Actually American Military intelligence had put alot of resources into busting the Admirals code of the Japanese navy, but that code was little used and had little info in it anyway , so our efforts were wasted . The navy operational code(JN-25b) was the one that we should have tried to bust, but that is hindsight, it also what Commander Rochefort had to say about it.

The real question is if the British could decode JN-25b before Pearl Harbor. If that is the case then Churchill would have known and therefore Roosevelt since they very close , blood related too. Roosevelt was stunned at the damage at Pearl , even if he knew it was going to happen, he actually thought our fleet was ready for it. As I said earlier (under-estimating your opponent).

We may find out when Churchill's classified "Ultra-secret info" is released. He had it sealed for 99 years after his death. The fact that he did that, makes me wonder why. Becuase it seems like a prudent thing to do for a smart man with some things to hide.

I highly suggest John Costello's "Days of Infamy" as the most recent and well researched analysis of much of what I have talked about, He did a helluva job looking at all the info available on Allied(mostly American) code breaking efforts prior to the war, related events, planning and the people involved.

Globalization41
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Elite Japanese Army Occupies Saigon

Post by Globalization41 » 31 Mar 2004 08:40

Saigon, French Indo-China, Associated Press,
The New York Times,
Thursday, July 31,
1941:
A fully equipped Japanese Army of
crack troops, obviously ready for action and
taking nothing for granted, formally occupied
Saigon today and with smart precision took up
strategic positions. ... It was obvious to
trained observers that Japan had sent a first-
class army
to occupy military bases in Southern
French Indo-China in accordance with the
agreement between the Tokyo and Vichy
governments. ... In equipment, discipline, and
efficiency the military outfits sent here were
recognized as among Japan's best. The Army
that arrived is a fighting army and not for
exhibition.
The Japanese Army, Navy, and
Air Force are working together and proceeding
in a serious and businesslike manner,
apparently not taking it for granted that there
would be no opposition. ... The Japanese are
not depending upon local food, housing, and
transportation. They brought their own motor
trucks, gasoline, foodstuffs, tents, and a wide
variety of other equipment. At all points along
the 500-mile stretch of Indo-China's southeast
coast from Tourane down to Saigon the
Japanese occupation troops seem prepared to
go into action if necessary. ... A Japanese
destroyer is berthed 50 yards from Majestic
Hotel,
where Japanese officers are maintaining
their headquarters. The Japanese officers seem
to be leaning over backwards, at least for the
present, to establish themselves as well-
disciplined military folk.
Similarly,
Frenchmen called upon to cooperate with the
occupiers do so with few words. Those
evacuating homes on 24 hours' notice get out
without protest. ... The private and business
life of Americans and Britons so far has
remained unaffected. But already a Japanese
civil army of businessmen is buying all
available cotton for quick delivery to Japan and
is negotiating for rubber, minerals, and other
products.

Saigon, French Indo-China, United Press,
The New York Times,
Thursday, July 31,
1941:
Japanese fighting planes and twin-
engined bombers, the first to arrive in Southern
Indo-China, landed at the Saigon airfield today,
and Japanese forces of occupation pushed on
into Pnom Penh, capital of the ancient kingdom
of Cambodia, bordering Thailand. ...
Activities of land and air forces all the way
from Saigon to Cambodia were accompanied
by movements of 50 to 60 Japanese warships
lying off Cap St. Jacques, 35 miles down the
Saigon River [from Saigon]. They cruised off
the coast in support of the Japanese forces of
occupation. ... United Press dispatches from
Pnom Penh said the first detachment of
Japanese troops to arrive there had
requisitioned buildings for military use. The
reports said that traffic on interior roads
between Saigon and Pnom Penh had been
cleared to facilitate Japanese troop movements.
... ... The New York Times, Thursday, July
31, 1941:
The French radio station, Paris
Mondial, reported [Thursday] that after the
landing of Japanese troops in Indo-China,
Marshal Chiang Kai-shek had ordered the
mining of all roads leading from the border of
Indo-China, according to the National
Broadcasting Company. The report added that
the mining had been carried out for a distance
of 30 miles on Chinese territory.

Berlin, United Press, The New York Times,
Friday, August 1, 1941: [Late Thursday, U.S.
time]
"Furious" counter-attacks by Russian
troops trapped by German forces along the
Eastern Front have failed and the "most
important and valuable parts" of the Soviet
field armies have been lost, an authorized
spokesman said today. ... The Russians are
pouring vast new reserves into the struggle to
free their encircled forces and heavy fighting is
in progress at many points,
the spokesman
said, but "the Soviet armies are beginning to
crack." ... A particularly heavy Red counter-
attack, spearheaded by tanks and including
fresh regiments from Siberia, was reported
hurled back with bloody losses around
Vyazma, 135 miles from Moscow. ... Nazi
sources boasted that Leningrad was being
swiftly encircled and faced "utter destruction"
unless it surrendered. It was intimated that in
the tightening encirclement, German forces had
driven east of Lake Ilmen, 120 miles south of
Leningrad, against strong resistance, while
another force attacked from Lake Peipus area
to the southwest of the city.

[Stay tuned for late breaking war bulletins.
... Globalization41]
Last edited by Globalization41 on 02 Jul 2004 01:46, edited 1 time in total.

Simon Gunson
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Suquence of events leading to Pearl Harbor.

Post by Simon Gunson » 31 Mar 2004 13:48

Dear, dear, dear, Christopher ...

Don't be sucked in by the propaganda mate

The British were reading all of JN-25b by late 1941 and probably faster than the poor Japanese code clerks themselves. The yanks were reading it too (JN-25b).

Somewhere in my laborious hand written notes taken down longhand in 1996, 'cos I had no library card and couldn't afford to photocopy, I have the text of a signal from STATION CAST in the Philippines dated 15 Dec 1941 To: OPNAV info CINCAF in essence saying hey guys we've got the latest code and a copy of the same message in the old "plain" code from 6th and 13th December (1941). Do ya want us to send more details ?

Lt Rudolf Fabian USN was the C-in-C CAST so he's the man to C.
All the CAST team were evacuated from Corrigedor by a US submarine.
McArthur got the PT boat cos he had an appointment to keep in a swanky Sydney restaurant. :lol:


Immediately before Pearl was attacked the Japanese were still sending signals about the attack in both JN-25b and JN-25c.

I'll bet you my old age pension, my walking frame and hearing aid against yours that when the truth comes out after 100 years that US signal interception stations were passing on 100% ... Not 10% of JN-25c directly to Roosevelt & co 8O

I bet you're going to be a pain and ask me to reference the source aren't you? Well you'll have to wait a week 'cos I don't get to the library very often now...

ChristopherPerrien
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Post by ChristopherPerrien » 31 Mar 2004 14:28

The British were reading all of JN-25b by late 1941 and probably faster than the poor Japanese code clerks themselves. The yanks were reading it too (JN-25b).
You got to have some proof of this as all Britsh stuff is STILL classified "ULTRA".


Somewhere in my laborious hand written notes taken down longhand in 1996, 'cos I had no library card and couldn't afford to photocopy, I have the text of a signal from STATION CAST in the Philippines dated 15 Dec 1941 To: OPNAV info CINCAF in essence saying hey guys we've got the latest code and a copy of the same message in the old "plain" code from 6th and 13th December (1941). Do ya want us to send more details ?

Lt Rudolf Fabian USN was the C-in-C CAST so he's the man to C.
All the CAST team were evacuated from Corrigedor by a US submarine.
McArthur got the PT boat cos he had an appointment to keep in a swanky Sydney restaurant. :lol:
Congradulations, as you have been next door to the Building I worked in at the Suitland Federal Complex where all the " declassified national achives are covering these.

Somehow in 1996, you have managed to find the "smoking gun" that revisionists have never found, and now I wonder why you have not made millions writing a book.

Excuse my sarcasm, I am searching for my copy of "Days of Infamy" as this message and this Capt. Fabian you mention is in there however it is not decrypt of a JN-25b message, it is a decypt from Purple machine 'the diplomactic decode".

You find your source and I will find my "propaganda".

Simon Gunson
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Suquence of events leading to Pearl Harbor.

Post by Simon Gunson » 01 Apr 2004 03:45

dear Christopher

Like I say I need to get to a library to give you the author and ISBN etc but I believe the book's title was:

"Japanese Codes & Australian Codebreaking in WW2"

Sorry, I've got to rush off an pick up my boy from Kindy. See ya later

Globalization41
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What Did F.D.R. & Churchill Know About Pearl Harbor?

Post by Globalization41 » 01 Apr 2004 05:37

I've suspected for many years that the
British knew much more about the
planned raid on Pearl Harbor than
they've admitted to. That would explain
why the British sealed their records for
several future generations. But even if
that was true, Churchill (being infinitely
more ethical, moral, and honorable than
F.D.R.
) may have informed Roosevelt
of the Japanese plans with the U.S.
president declining to pass the
operational info along to the War
Department. ... Both Churchill and
Roosevelt were actively engaged in the
subversion of U.S. neutrality. Both
Congress and America were hard-core
isolationist at the time, thus F.D.R.'s only
hope of getting America into the world
war rested on a blatant aggression
against the U.S. ... Roosevelt tried every
provocation he could think of, but his
hands were tied by Congress and public
opinion.
... Churchill's only hope of
defeating Nazi Germany depended on
U.S. intervention. Therefore, it would
have been in Churchill's interest, if he
knew of the plan to raid Hawaii, not to
divulge the intelligence either at all or
at the least not too soon, since the
Japanese might have canceled the raid,

leaving the U.S. still neutral. ...
Furthermore, both leaders had to worry
about the possibility that Hitler might not
declare war on America.
In that case,
Congress would have been even more
opposed to European interventionism;
Japan would have become priority No. 1
for the U.S. ... Without America's weight
tipping the balance, Hitler and Stalin
would have eventually stalemated.


Globalization41

Simon Gunson
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Suquence of events leading to Pearl Harbor.

Post by Simon Gunson » 02 Apr 2004 09:19

Globalisation41 you almost answered your own question with the last of your newspaper articles quoting Tojo on 7 December 1941 in essence saying Japan had been bullied into a war that it did not want.

That was the Los Angeles Times article which you posted at
"White House bulletins say Pearl harbour under attack"

Why didn't I write the book Christopher ?
... Darn it man. I thought everyone else had already.

Obviously I've read from a very obscure source.

Globalization41
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Roosevelt's Oil Embargo

Post by Globalization41 » 02 Apr 2004 11:23

Japan desired control and ownership of
its oil supplies. Its major oil source was
the U.S., which tied too many strings to
the continued flow. Therefore, Japan
decided to seize its oil by eventually
occupying the Dutch Indies. ... As Japan
moved in that direction by consolidating
its military positions along the China and
Indochina coastal areas, Roosevelt
slapped his oil embargo on Japan while
reinforcing U.S. forces on the Philippines,
which guarded the flank of the long sea
lanes from Japan to the Netherlands
Indies oil fields. ... Although it was
obvious at the time that Japan was
eyeing the Dutch Indies oil, Roosevelt's
embargo still left Japan with two options:
Japan could obtain its oil through trade
(but not with the U.S. unless Japan
renounced military aggression) or seize
its own supply by military force. Without
imports from America, Japan's oil supply
was rapidly dwindling by late 1941.

Globalization41
Last edited by Globalization41 on 05 Apr 2004 06:34, edited 1 time in total.

Globalization41
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Senator Charges Administration Anxious for War with Japan

Post by Globalization41 » 05 Apr 2004 02:45

Washington, Special to The New York Times,
Wednesday, August 27, 1941: Senator Burton
K. Wheeler, Democrat, of Montana, declared
tonight that he was more apprehensive of war
with Japan than in Europe,
and he contended
that if war with Japan eventuated, "we will be
preserving the British domination of Asia
rather than helping the United States." ...
"Only when British possessions and interests
are vitally affected," he charged, "does the
Administration seem to be greatly concerned
about the Orient." ... The Senate leader of
opposition to President Roosevelt's foreign
policies
set forth his view in an interview
during which he said that "there are those
within the Administration who apparently have
been anxious for a war with Japan for some
time." He was also critical of Prime Minister
Churchill's radio speech Sunday. ... "Some
claim," Senator Wheeler stated, "that we will
have to fight Japan some time and we might as
well do it now while Japan is tied up in China.
I have never been able to agree with that
philosophy." "After all," he continued, "it is
England that has the vital interests in Asia." ...
"Whether Russia wins or falls," the Senator
contended, "should not influence us in getting
into the war." ... "Only a few months ago," he said,
"we denounced Russia as an aggressor and the
sympathies of the American people went out to
little Finland.
Now we are trying to help
Russia prevent Finland and the other nations
from getting back the possessions which Russia
took from them." ... "There is no sentiment in
this country for war with Japan, or that we ally
ourselves with Russia, and very little sentiment
that we should get into the European war.
" ...
"While the American people as a whole hate
Hitler and everything he stands for, they also
hate Stalin
and everything he stands for. They
have no particular love for the Japanese nor for
those who control China
and there is no
sympathy in this country with England's desire
to keep the people of India in virtual slavery."
... "The masses of the people have shown
repeatedly that they won't follow the Knoxes
and the Stimsons and the rest of the war
makers in Mr. Roosevelt's Cabinet.
Talk
about Lindbergh and myself being isolationists!
President Roosevelt and his Cabinet are the
greatest isolationists in America today. They
are isolating us from every country on the face
of the earth
by making enemies of all of them
except England and in the long run her
friendship is of doubtful character -- unless we
hurry up and send our Navy and another
A.E.F." [A.E.F. -- American Expeditionary
Force sent (needlessly in Wheeler's view) in
World War I.]


[Stay tuned for late breaking war bulletins.
... Globalization41.]
Last edited by Globalization41 on 02 Aug 2004 03:32, edited 1 time in total.

john2
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Reply.

Post by john2 » 06 Apr 2004 20:55

Hello again. Sorry ikt's been so long but I forgot about this thread. Anyhow to clarify, I was not looking for revisionist material but an official chronolgy of events. I was mainly interested in the period from 1939 to the Pearl Harbor attack.

Globalization41
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Pearl Harbor Timeline

Post by Globalization41 » 07 Apr 2004 04:39

Pearl Harbor Timeline

Revisionism

Official

John2. Please note that the terms
"official" and "revisionism" are by
themselves totally neutral with regard to
the truth.

Globalization41

ChristopherPerrien
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Re: Reply.

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 07 Apr 2004 13:31

john2 wrote:Hello again. Sorry ikt's been so long but I forgot about this thread. Anyhow to clarify, I was not looking for revisionist material but an official chronolgy of events. I was mainly interested in the period from 1939 to the Pearl Harbor attack.
:roll: :lol:

forget about your own thread,

Any way I would like to think that my version of events will be OFFICIAL one day.

The official version spans numerous congressional investigations and also the offical inquiries and the court martials of Gen. Short and Adm. Kimmel, which are still being appealed and revised to this day. So good luck as the offical version(US GOV) version/chronology still ain't done.

john2
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Reply.

Post by john2 » 07 Apr 2004 13:52

Thanks globilization, for your help. That was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks also to Christopher Perrien for trying to present the other side of events. I was not saying that the official version is correct but I have not studied thie period much so I wanted to start out with the official version so I understand the basics of the events and then move on to the revisionist side. I have a theory about how the war in the Pacific started. My theory is that Roosevelt wanted peace with Japan so he could concentrate on entering the war in Europe. I think the war Japan was an accident but Roosevelt's plan was salvaged when Hitler declared war anyway a few days after Pearl Harbor. This is just my theory and to me it makes sense but the major drawback I was having was explaining Roosevelt's tough stance with Japan towards the end of the negotiations. The best solution I came up with is that Roosevelt was reacting to Japanese moves. I could not prove this without seeing who was making the first moves which is why I wanted a chronolgy. I'm going to take the time to study it now and see if I can provide more details on proving my theory.

Globalization41
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Post by Globalization41 » 07 Apr 2004 15:12

If Roosevelt planned to pick a fight with Japan
as a pretext to entering the European war, his
gamble (even if he would have had Hitler's
bunker bugged) could easily have failed
because Congress would not have declared
war on Germany first.
Roosevelt lucked out
when Hitler declared war on America four
days after Pearl Harbor. (I think John2's theory
is closer to the correct course of events.)

Globalization41

john2
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Reply to globilization.

Post by john2 » 07 Apr 2004 15:29

This was taken from the site you gave me:
After the attack on Pearl Harbor, the American people were willing, if not eager, to go to war. Once the US had declared war on Japan, under the provisions of the Tripartite Pact signed by Germany, Italy, and Japan on September 1940, Hitler declared war on the US.
Sorry but this false. Hitler did not declare war on the US because of the tripartite pact. The tripartite pact was a DEFENSIVE alliance. Hitler was not bound by the pact to go to war. He declared war for reasons (too complex to explain here) that had nothing to do with the pact. The claim that Roosevelt had to force Japan to attack so he could the war is not valid. It was not certain that Hitler would declare war and the tripartite pact did not bind him to do so. The fact is Roosevelt was already successfully undermining US neutrality and the isolationist movement. In September he gave the order to fire on German ships in an obvious attempt to create an incident. Roosevlt had covinced many people to fear Germany. Looking at the trend going on I think as time passed Roosevelt could have gotten the US into war with Germany on his own without Japan. Furthermore as I explained the connecting point between a Japanese war and a Hitler declaration of war did not exist, at least in the form of a treaty. What happened is that Hitler made promises to Japan OUTSIDE of the tripartite pact that in case of a Japanese/US conflict he would go to war with the US regardless of who was the agressor. Roosevelt however had no knowledge of this and these were informal promises. So aside from vague promises, which Hitler could always break and had broken in the past, there was nothing to make Hitler go to war. Even if the tripartite pact had bound Hitler to go to war he could have easily broken it as nothing stopped him from breaking all his other treaties. My point is that was no certainty what so ever of Hitler declaring war on the US in case of a war in the Pacific. Roosevelt would be taking a major gamble - forcing Japan into war in the desperate hope he could pursuade Hitler to join in and fighting a two front war as well. If Roosevelt could get the US into war on his own and the was no certainty war with Japan would mean war with Germany then forcing Japan to attack wouldn't make sense. Could anybody whow me proof that Roosevelt belived Hitler would join in if he was involved in a war with Japan?

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