concentration camp and extermination camp

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panzertruppe2001
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concentration camp and extermination camp

Post by panzertruppe2001 » 10 May 2004 18:47

As far as I know in Nazi Germany were:
a)Concentration Camps: A place were the prisoners worked or were tortured or punished, but the objetive was not the death of the prisoner (Buchenwald, Dachau, Bergen-Belsen, Theresienstadt, Ravensbruck, Mauthausen, etc). No gas chambers in this camps. All of them were into the Reich
b)Extermination Camps: A place were the prisoners worked or were tortured or punished, but the objetive was the death of the prisoner (Auschwitz, Treblinka, Sobibor, Maidanek, Belzec, etc). There were gas chambers in this camps and all of them (except Auschwitz very near the General Gouvernement, but in Germany) were in Poland

The Nazis nicknamed their Concentration Camps as KZ (Konzentrationlager), but

Which nickname did the Nazis gave to their Extermination Camps? or all the camps were Konzentrationlager for them?

Thanks

Luca
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Post by Luca » 11 May 2004 07:57

According with the Reichs-Sicherheit Amt - R.S.H.A. 1942 the detention places was organizated in 5 big categories.
Hausen (Hauses) = 4 typs
Anstalten ( in english?) = 6 typs
Ghettos (ghettoes) = no typs
Gefangnisse (prisons) = 5 typs
Lager (camps) = 49 typs

So the total of different classifications for the detention places was 65.

The 1942 R.S.H.A. classification of 65 was traslated from the I.T.S. in 1949 in 7 only typs. This new classification is the better common know in the world also today, and exactly:
GS = CWC
G = P
IL = IC
AT = WD
ZAL = FLC
DL = TC
KL = CC
VL = EC

Concern Your 1°question:
VL = Vernichtungslager = EC = Extermination Camp
Concern Your 2° qestion:
You can see that the KL was only 1 typ of the 49 Lager

Concern the "Nickname" of the Concentration Camps, that was KL or KZ, i want say that the firsts KL (1933/1936) was after named F.KL (Fruehe Konzentrationlager) for make a difference, cause the news KL was under the SS control. Infact the F.KL was under SA control.

I have the detailed 1942 list of the R.S.H.A. detention places but i never see the original documents so i will very happy if someone will able to show the pics in subject.

Thank You
Luca

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Georg_S
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Post by Georg_S » 11 May 2004 12:59

Luca wrote:According with the Reichs-Sicherheit Amt - R.S.H.A. 1942 the detention places was organizated in 5 big categories.
Hausen (Hauses) = 4 typs
Anstalten ( in english?) = 6 typs
Ghettos (ghettoes) = no typs
Gefangnisse (prisons) = 5 typs
Lager (camps) = 49 typs

So the total of different classifications for the detention places was 65.

The 1942 R.S.H.A. classification of 65 was traslated from the I.T.S. in 1949 in 7 only typs. This new classification is the better common know in the world also today, and exactly:
GS = CWC
G = P
IL = IC
AT = WD
ZAL = FLC
DL = TC
KL = CC
VL = EC

Concern Your 1°question:
VL = Vernichtungslager = EC = Extermination Camp
Concern Your 2° qestion:
You can see that the KL was only 1 typ of the 49 Lager

Concern the "Nickname" of the Concentration Camps, that was KL or KZ, i want say that the firsts KL (1933/1936) was after named F.KL (Fruehe Konzentrationlager) for make a difference, cause the news KL was under the SS control. Infact the F.KL was under SA control.

I have the detailed 1942 list of the R.S.H.A. detention places but i never see the original documents so i will very happy if someone will able to show the pics in subject.

Thank You
Luca


Not all "Frühe KL" was under the control of SA, KL Dachau was established in march 1933 and was almost all time under the control of SS
(Only a few weeks before the SS took over Bayrische Polizisten guarded the camp)


//Georg

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Post by michael mills » 11 May 2004 14:12

There was never any such thing as a camp officially called "Vernichtungslager".

The official designation of the Auschwitz main camp was "Konzentrationslager Auschwitz", or "KL-Auschwitz".

The official designation of Birkenau was "Kriegsgefangenenlager Birkenau", or KGL-Birkenau.

The official designation of Majdanek was originally KGL-Lublin, then changed to KL-Lublin.

The official designation of Belzec was "Sonderlager der Waffen-SS Belzec".


German concentration camps were officially divided into three groups, according to the severity of the treatment of the prisoners, Group 1 being the most leninet, and Group 3 being the most severe.

Only one camp was in Group 3; that was Mauthausen.

Auschwitz main camp was in Group 1 and Birkenau in Group 2. Thus, Mauthausen was officially considered a more severe camp than Birkenau.
The term "Vernichtungslager" was never used by the Germans themselves. It is a translation of the Polish term "oboz zaglady", which the Polish underground hyperbolically applied to German concentration camps to which captured Polish resistance fighters were sent.

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Post by panzertruppe2001 » 12 May 2004 19:16

Luca wrote:According with the Reichs-Sicherheit Amt - R.S.H.A. 1942 the detention places was organizated in 5 big categories.
Hausen (Hauses) = 4 typs
Anstalten ( in english?) = 6 typs
Ghettos (ghettoes) = no typs
Gefangnisse (prisons) = 5 typs
Lager (camps) = 49 typs

So the total of different classifications for the detention places was 65.

The 1942 R.S.H.A. classification of 65 was traslated from the I.T.S. in 1949 in 7 only typs. This new classification is the better common know in the world also today, and exactly:
GS = CWC
G = P
IL = IC
AT = WD
ZAL = FLC
DL = TC
KL = CC
VL = EC

Concern Your 1°question:
VL = Vernichtungslager = EC = Extermination Camp
Concern Your 2° qestion:
You can see that the KL was only 1 typ of the 49 Lager

Concern the "Nickname" of the Concentration Camps, that was KL or KZ, i want say that the firsts KL (1933/1936) was after named F.KL (Fruehe Konzentrationlager) for make a difference, cause the news KL was under the SS control. Infact the F.KL was under SA control.

I have the detailed 1942 list of the R.S.H.A. detention places but i never see the original documents so i will very happy if someone will able to show the pics in subject.

Thank You
Luca


Excuse me Luca i am not rebuting your post, but a doubt grow inside me. Why the RSHA put the KZ in its classification of detention places if the KZ were part of the SS Wirtschafts-und Verwaltungshauptamt and were not part of RSHA

Thanks

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Post by David Thompson » 12 May 2004 22:35

panzertruppe2001 -- Luca noted that in 1942 the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office - Reichssicherheitshauptamt) listed 5 main categories of Nazi detention facilities, one of which were lagers (camps). You then asked:
Why the RSHA put the KZ in its classification of detention places if the KZ were part of the SS Wirtschafts-und Verwaltungshauptamt and were not part of RSHA
The reason is this: The WVHA was formed at the end of Jan 1942. It took over the existing concentration camps and certain other detention facilities in Mar 1942. Just as there were detention facilities which existed before the WVHA was formed, there was also a set of names for the types of detention facilities.

The fact that there was an RSHA list of types of detention facilities doesn't mean that the RSHA was responsible for setting up the classifications. The RSHA list was just one copy of a uniform list of types of detention facilities. The RSHA was responsible for arresting people and sending them to the proper detention facility. To keep track of how and where arrested people were sent, the RSHA maintained a copy of a list of agreed-upon types and terms. That way, everyone in the RSHA, WVHA, Reich Ministry of the Interior, Reich Justice Ministry and other agencies would all use the same expression for certain types of camp.

That particular RSHA copy happened to survive the war, and was used by historians to show the names used by the Nazis to describe the various types of facilities.

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Post by Horvath » 13 May 2004 13:09

You mentioned that there were extermination camps at Germany, that's a mistake, there was not even one single extermination camp at Germany, most of them were in Poland.

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Post by panzertruppe2001 » 13 May 2004 17:00

Horvath wrote:You mentioned that there were extermination camps at Germany, that's a mistake, there was not even one single extermination camp at Germany, most of them were in Poland.


Horvath: I believe that Auschwitz was in Germany. Actually this place is Poland, but as far as I know Auschwitz was in Germany. This camp was very near the General Gouvernment border. Horvath if Auschwitz was in the General Gouvernment correct me. Excuse me if i am wrong.

Thanks

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Post by panzertruppe2001 » 13 May 2004 17:02

David Thompson wrote:panzertruppe2001 -- Luca noted that in 1942 the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office - Reichssicherheitshauptamt) listed 5 main categories of Nazi detention facilities, one of which were lagers (camps). You then asked:
Why the RSHA put the KZ in its classification of detention places if the KZ were part of the SS Wirtschafts-und Verwaltungshauptamt and were not part of RSHA
The reason is this: The WVHA was formed at the end of Jan 1942. It took over the existing concentration camps and certain other detention facilities in Mar 1942. Just as there were detention facilities which existed before the WVHA was formed, there was also a set of names for the types of detention facilities.

The fact that there was an RSHA list of types of detention facilities doesn't mean that the RSHA was responsible for setting up the classifications. The RSHA list was just one copy of a uniform list of types of detention facilities. The RSHA was responsible for arresting people and sending them to the proper detention facility. To keep track of how and where arrested people were sent, the RSHA maintained a copy of a list of agreed-upon types and terms. That way, everyone in the RSHA, WVHA, Reich Ministry of the Interior, Reich Justice Ministry and other agencies would all use the same expression for certain types of camp.

That particular RSHA copy happened to survive the war, and was used by historians to show the names used by the Nazis to describe the various types of facilities.


Thanks for the correction David. I do not know that WVHA was created in 1942. Thanks again

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Post by DrG » 13 May 2004 17:31

panzertruppe2001 wrote:Horvath: I believe that Auschwitz was in Germany. Actually this place is Poland, but as far as I know Auschwitz was in Germany. This camp was very near the General Gouvernment border.

Auschwitz was in an area of Poland annexed by Germany in late 1939, see map: http://www.rootsweb.com/~deubadnw/history/maps/d1944.jpg.

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Post by panzertruppe2001 » 13 May 2004 18:10

Thanks DrG. More or less all is correct.

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Post by Horvath » 13 May 2004 18:16

Well, as part of our history classes on the holocaust, we refer to Aushwitz-Birkenau as an extermination camp that was on the land of Poland, but yeah much or less your claim is correct too.

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Post by panzertruppe2001 » 19 May 2004 19:12

The WVHA was formed at the end of Jan 1942. It took over the existing concentration camps and certain other detention facilities in Mar 1942. Just as there were detention facilities which existed before the WVHA was formed, there was also a set of names for the types of detention facilities.


Thanks David for the answer, but i have another question. Which agency did rule the KZ before 1942. It must be an agency out of Heydrich sphere because Andre Brissaud in his book "Stories of the Nazi Secret Service" says that Himmler did not trust Heydrich neither the Totenkopf Verbande nor the KZ system.

Thanks, and excuse me if i am curious

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Post by David Thompson » 19 May 2004 20:19

panzertruppe2001 -- You asked:
Which agency did rule the KZ before 1942.


Between 30 Jan 1933 and 30 Jun 1934, the concentration camps were run by the Sturmabteilung (SA) commanders of the SA districts where the camps were located.

From mid or late 1934 to 1935, the concentration camps were run by the SS commanders of the SS regions or districts (Oberabschnitte and Abschnitte) where the camps were located. When the SS took over responsibility from the SA for administering the camps in 1934, Himmler appointed Theodor Eicke to serve as SS Inspector of the Camps and Camp Guards (Inspekteur der Konzentrationslager und SS-Wachverbaende)

On 1 Apr 1936 the guards were removed from the control of the General SS (Allgemeine SS) and formed into "Death's Head" units (SS-Totenkopfverbaende - SS-TV), administered by Eicke. By 1938-1939 Eicke's title was Commander of the Death's Head Units and the Concentration Camps (Fuehrer der SS-TV u. KL). On 1 Nov 1939 Eicke resigned that position.

It appears that from that time, and certainly by 22 Apr 1941, that for pay and personnel purposes, the concentration camp guards were under the administration of the Waffen-SS. In Aug 1940, the camp inspectorate was disbanded and the administration of the camps was taken over by the SS Main Office (SS-Hauptamt - SS-HA), administered by August Heissmeyer (1935-1941) and Gottlob Berger (1941-1945).

In Mar 1942 the administration of the camps was transferred from the SS-HA to the SS-WVHA, which administered them until the surrender in May 1945.

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Post by panzertruppe2001 » 20 May 2004 16:38

Thanks David, always giving a complete information. Thanks again

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