Wehrmacht crimes in Poland in 1939 campaign

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Panzermahn
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Post by Panzermahn » 08 Jun 2004 18:08

Doubt that German soldiers would do any documentation or that they would boast with the crime;


This is not true. What about the reports of Einsatzgruppen A, B, C, D in the Eastern Front? What about the Stroop report during the Warsaw Uprising? And what about the filming of the atrocity of Lidice?

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Post by szopen » 08 Jun 2004 18:11

Joachim Chan wrote:
Doubt that German soldiers would do any documentation or that they would boast with the crime;


This is not true. What about the reports of Einsatzgruppen A, B, C, D in the Eastern Front? What about the Stroop report during the Warsaw Uprising? And what about the filming of the atrocity of Lidice?


Uhm, right. So, I think that if there is evidence similar to photos of execution of PoWs in Ciepielow, then it would be "bonus", but i wouldn't count on it.

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Post by szopen » 09 Jun 2004 08:57

"Germans about crimes of Wehrmacht" Polish edition by Bellona, Warsaw 1997, translation and footnotes by Barbara and Daniel Lulinski

Title of German original: "Gehorsam bis zum Mord? Der verschwiegene Krieg der deutschen Wehrmacht - Fakten, Analysen, Debatte".

ISBN 83-11-08722-9

The German original has errors: for example it mentions, that Poles and Germans had numerical equality in divisions, while in reality German army had twice as many.. but that's the detail.

My quotes are from footnotes. All CAPSLOCKS are mine.
You will notice that footnotes are quoting other books; i have choosen to give footnote in whole, sicne i don't have books quoted in that footnotes.
Second footnote on page 25:
Since September the 1st to October 26th 1993, when Wehrmacht had full power over occupied Polish lands, from 764 executions, in which 24.000 people were killed, in 311 participated soldiers of Wehrmacht. It was documented by Szymon Datner in "55 days of Wehrmacht in Poland. Crimes done on civilian population in period 1.IX-25.X 1939", Warsaw 1967 and "Crimes of Wehrmacht - choosen documents", Warsaw 1974.

(Polish titles: "55 dni Wehrmachtu w Polsce. Zbrodnie dokonane na ludnosci cywilnej w okresi 1.iX-25.X 1939" oraz "Zbronie Wehrmachtu - wybrane dokumenty"



From Polish supplement to the book:
page 181:
2 and 3rd september 1939 in the region of Rybnik group of Polish soldiers from 12 pp was captured by Wehrmacht. They were given no pardon, "they were throwed to tha ground and over their bodies were driving tanks" (Szymon Datner, Crimes of Wehrmacht on prisoners of war during WWII", Warsaw 1964). September the 3rd near Radomsko Germans shot down POlish aircraft and captured two persons from crew. One prisoner after tortures (cutting his tongue, ears and nose) was murdered. It was done yb soldiers of 4 panzer division of XVI corps of 10th army of Reichenau. [crimes on scouts - well, they were not technically soldiers, so i omit that passage]. The same day [September the 4th] in Opatowiec near PInczow 45 Polish PoWs were shot by soldiers from 2nd light division of XV corps of 10th army.

Shooting of prisoners or their mistreating were done by, amongst others, 2nd division of XVII corps of 14 army, 207 division infnatry of 4th army, 4 panzer division of XVI corps of 10th army. THE LUFTWAFFE'S ON-GROUND FORCES WERE PARTICIPATING IN STREET EXECUTIONS IN BYDGOSZCZ. [cut the crimes in Warsaw Uprising, as they are widely known]


There are also quotes about shooting of Polish PoWs later, eg during 1945 campaign, but the title of the thread is 1939 campaign, so i won't quote it.


=*=*=*
Antoni Czubinski "Wielkopolska in years 1918-1939" (Wielkopolska w latach 1918-1939)" Poznan 2000 isbn 83-7177-099-5
page 200
Spemteber the 1st, 14:00 German units entered Wyszanow shooting to civilians, supposedly in revenge for disarming of German army here in 1918. To the underground of Wyszanow manor, where women with children tried to seek shelter, were thrown grenades. 14 children and 8 women died. Surviving mens were taken later to camp near Nurnberg. Village was burned down.

In Torzeniec (4 km from Wyszanow), which was took September 1st at evening, from unknown reason Wehrmacht soldiers started the shooting, and then started to "pacificate" village by burning the buildings. 8 persons were shot when they tried to leave burning homes, 18 men were shot next day. In total 34 civlians and 3 unknown Polish soldiers were shot.

In Bukownica gmina Grabow September 2nd 7 inhabitants were shot. In borderland region of Wieruszow in September 2dn 41, and in September the 3rd 17 person were murdered. [..] In September the 4th in Maczniki 19 person were murdered [..]


On page 202 are described repercussion against members of National Defense, paramilitary official organisation which defended some towns after regular army had left the region. I am not sure about their legal status, so i omit the data, although it shoudl be noted that except PoWs (page 203) German soldiers shoot also random men from the cities of Kleck, Turk, Wagrowiec... On page 203 also the book mentions that Wehrmacht was taking the hostages and shooting them.

=*=*=*=*

"Jews in Greater Poland over the history (Zydzi w Wielkopolsce na przestrzeni dziejow), Poznan 1999, under redaction of Jerzy Topolski and
Krzysztof Modelski isbn 83-7177-113-4

page 214-215:
"First of them [Jews] were shot by Wehrmacht during September campaign in Poland, e.g September 2nd 1939 over 20 Jews in Wieruszow and 11 in Sieradz in September the 15th."

=*=*=*=


Janusz Gumkowski, Kazimierz Leszczynski "Okupacja hitlerowska w Polsce (Nazi occupation in Poland") Warsaw 1963

Page 36
Jan Marek from Lodygowice [...] from 4 pulk of Strzelcy podhalanscy, was captured near the Przemysl. Group of over 100 prisoners, in which he find himself, was forced to march to Drohobycz. On the way German escort ordered stop in village of Urycz. Whole group of prisoners were closed in the barn, supposedly to spent a night in there.

After closing the barn Jan Marek saw from the hole in wall, as German soldiers ordered by their commander put benzine on the walls. Soon after that they started shoot to the barn and throw grenade there. Barn was immedietely put in fire. PoWs, trying to escape, were able to break one of the wall, but their were coverred by fire from machine guns and grenades. Marek was ble to jump over the fence near the field, but was shot in arm and fall down. He was able to arise and run few another steps, but the grenade was thrown after him. He was wounded again, this time in face. He fall down losing consience. Seemingly German thought he is dead. In night he was found by Soltys of village and transported him to hostpial. Marek is alive to this day. but has deep scares.

His testimony is confirmed by Antoni Dobij from Grodziska, one of few surviving from the massacre Poles.


I am a bit tired with quoting the rest...

In the page 57 It is mentioned by two Polish soldiers, survivors from another massacre: by Tadeusz Nowak and Jozef Nycz. They testified that a groupd of about 20 people were shot by Whermacht sodleris near Majdan the Great.In exhumation done by Polish red Cross in 1940 in mass grave 42 bodies were found.

Another crimes described: shooting of 14 PoWs near Lipsko, described by wojt of village nearby, Stanislaw Gozdur.(page 58 ). Massacre of Polishj prisoners in temporal camp in Zamborw 13-14 septmber.

Page 60-63 is description of crime of murdering 300 Polish PoWs in Ciepielow.

=*=*=*=*
The webmaster was using following books when compiling the list i copied earlier:
- Gumkowski Janusz, Leszczyński Kazimierz, Okupacja hitlerowska w Polsce.
- Datner Szymon, Zbrodnie Wehrmachtu na jeńcach wojennych w II wojnie światowej

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Post by Mostowka » 09 Jun 2004 12:13


Hi Szopen, i know that you're a very unbiased author on the matter on war crimes committed in poland, but the above allegation stated seems a bit far fetch without proof, don't you think?


This is the first time i heard about Wehrmacht troops ordered Polish POWs to lie down and the tanks drove over them squashing their bodies like bugs in WW2


Panzermahn, is that you ? :D

If it is, how can you with a straight face require from someone that they present well founded sources to absurd claims on war crimes. If i´m not mistaken you have the Guiness world record in claiming bizzare and strange warcrimes without backing them up the least.

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Fredd
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Post by Fredd » 10 Jun 2004 10:28

Mostowka wrote:Panzermahn, is that you ? :D


and

SS Panzer Army Malaysia


Do you expect the SS Panzerarmy Malysia consists of more than one guy - namely Panzermahn :wink: Of course it's him

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Re: Wehrmacht crimes on in Poland in 1939 campaign

Post by Junker » 13 Jun 2004 02:11

szopen wrote:Ok, i will post here events which i will find dealing with Wehrmacht soldiers behaviour in September 1939. I am not posting it into "Wehrmacht units implicated into crimes" since in that thread had to be documented crimes: and i am posting info found on the web and in my books...


http://www.katowice.uw.gov.pl/opracowan ... olegli.htm


Hi, do you know Dolsk? I was there in 1939. Do you know what had happened there?

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Post by michael mills » 13 Jun 2004 07:48

Given the nature of war itself, I think it can be taken for granted that there were incidences of German troops shooting captured Polish soldiers.

It can also be taken for granted that if any German soldiers were captured by Polish troops there would have been incidents when some of them were shot.

And I would agree with Szopen's point that individual soldiers taken prisoner in the field were more in danger of being summarily shot by their captors who did not have the time or inclination to guard them, than soldiers taken prisoner in large groups or as part of a surrender of whole units. Polish officers and soldiers taken into POW camps were generally treated well by their German captors; there were certainly no massacres such as those perpetrated by the Soviets in the Spring of 1940.

As for shootings of Poles who had participated in the ethnic conflict immediately following the end of the First World War as member of irregular units (the so-called "insurgents"), that was simply retribution for the many acts of terrorism committed by those irregular units in the period 1918-21. As I have written previously, it was Polish nationalist extremists who first introduced terrorist violence into the ethnic rivalry in the German-Polish borderlands.

As for the shootings of Jews, I hardly think that is anything for Poles to complain about. I am sure that the Poles who witnessed or heard about such shootings would have been secretly happy to see the Germans doing what they themselves wanted to do but were unable to. The Polish right-wing nationalists, the Endecja, were particularly anti-Jewish (as well as anti-German), and their underground publications during the German occupation show that they were glad to see the end of the Jews.

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Post by Mostowka » 13 Jun 2004 11:37

As for the shootings of Jews, I hardly think that is anything for Poles to complain about. I am sure that the Poles who witnessed or heard about such shootings would have been secretly happy to see the Germans doing what they themselves wanted to do but were unable to. The Polish right-wing nationalists, the Endecja, were particularly anti-Jewish (as well as anti-German), and their underground publications during the German occupation show that they were glad to see the end of the Jews.



In the same way that there were Poles who NOT were happy to see that happen to their fellow countrymen (those that viewed it that way) - you really take every possible chance to frame that particular image upon Poles. don´t you ! It´s really that black and white in your world ?

And sure, there were far right nationalists, antisemites, radical catholics.. But there were also heaps of social democrats, communists, ordinary people who had some connection to the Jewish community. Believe me, talking to older Poles today you really get diffrent views of Jews. You also seem to forget the particular politics that Pilsudski introduced during the 1920´s, even though he did before the war his method of uniting al ethnic groups of Poland and tolerance was not forgotten and was in many ways carried on.

I am sure that the Poles who witnessed or heard about such shootings would have been secretly happy to see the Germans doing what they themselves wanted to do but were unable to.


This actually makes me sad to read. Your "what if" - theory about the holocaust that would have taken place any way, with or without the help of the Germans has no validity whatsoever. The theory is a empty subject and impossible to discuss.

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Post by Reichskriegsgericht » 13 Jun 2004 14:54

@Szopen:
<<Ok, i will post here events which i will find dealing with Wehrmacht <<soldiers behaviour in September 1939. I am not posting it into <<"Wehrmacht units implicated into crimes" since in that thread had to be <<documented crimes: and i am posting info found on the web and in my <<books...
There are well founded reasons for this forum policy. Anybody can make up hundreds of „warcrime“ stories if he wants to, especially when they are written in a language most of the forum members can’t read. I don’t know how many members speak German, but you probably don’t since you are reading polish translations of German books. If I come up with a couple of hundred supposed polish war crimes from german sources, I wonder if you would take them for granted in the same way you seem to expect from the members with your „war crimes“...

<<Note, that from more than 700 cases researched by Polish IPN and then <<recently given to German jurisdiction no Wehrmacht soldier was in any <<way punished. All crimes were excused by, for example "conditions of <<fighting the partisan war"
If the results of the researches were really recently handed to the German jurisdiction, you can be absolutely sure the Staatsanwaltschaft (prosecutor) would have begun inquiries if necessary. If they didn’t this simply means there was no sufficient evidence for any crime, or there were no warcrimes because the actions were legal under Hague IV especially in the anti partisan warfare.

And IMHO here we have the most important point, basically the same as in the Luftwaffe „war crimes“ in Poland thread. The websites provide a collection of incidents in no specific order, disregarding any possible other explanation, completely neglecting the legal situation during 1939-1945 and classify every single killing of civilians, POWs or soldiers except during the immediate battle actions as a „war crime“. None of the incidents provides enough facts regarding the actual situation at that moment, for example:

<<1. September 8th, Odrzywoly: Polish medical column with red crossed <<etc is shooted at by German soldiers fom 13 panzewr division from XIV <<corps. During actions in the same locality German units are using <<civilians as living shields.
A Red Cross column was shoot at. Ever considered an accident? Or perhaps polish soldiers (not necessarily from the column) in the near vicinity opened fire first? By the way, there was no 13.PzDiv in September 1939, only a 13th motorized InfDiv. The difference surely is not important for the incident itself, but IMHO shows how „carefully“ the facts were collected. Especially when considering the fast advance of the motorized divisions, an accident could be an explanation. Perhaps it was getting dark or it was a bit foggy, and the soldiers couldn’t recognize the Red Cross immediatly?

<<2. German soldiers from the same division killed 11 civilians in <<Drzewica in 8 and 9 september, probably as revenge for the resistance <<given by Polish military units in area.
Perhaps they weren’t harmless civilians, but a sabotage commando? Or a bunch of partisans?

<<7. September the 5th in forestnearn Buchardztw, pow Kartuzy,
<<German soldiers from 207 infantry division from 5 army shot Polish <<PoW from BON, known by name: Brunon Formela from Kartuzy.
On September the 5th the AOK 5 was in the West securing the german border.

<<8. September the 5th, Serock, po Swiecie: in night Germans suddenly <<started to shoot to Polish PoWs which were placed there for night.
Perhaps an accident too? The German soldiers were still green and had no experience with night fighting. Perhaps a guard was too nervous, believing some POWs tried to excape? Perhaps some did try to escape, then it was legal to shoot them.

<<14. September the 8th, Mszczonow, pow Blonie: Germans publicly shot <<11 prisoners, 8 in uniforms and 3 in civilian clothes. Crime done by 4. <<DPanc. XVI Korpusu 10. Armii.
Soldiers in civilian clothing could be three saboteurs or partisans.

<<15. September the 9th, Skaryszew, pow Radom, German soldiers killed <<2 soldiers which were trying to give up, with their hands raisen to the <<up.
<<16. September the 9th, Ludwikowka, gm Bartoszowka, pow Blonie,
<<Soldiers from German 4. DPanc. XVI Korpusu 10. Armii shot another 2 <<Polish soldiers trying to give up.
And maybe their comrades two or three meters to the left or right were still firing, so it could have been a trick in the eyes of the Germans facing them? Or maybe an accident in the heat of the battle?

<<22. September 13/14 In Zamborow Horses from wagons appeared <<amongst the prisoners. PoWs panicked. Germans started shoting at <<random for at least 10 minutes (few Germans soldiers were shot as <<well).
What a heinous war crime! The Germans even shot their own soldiers, probably in order to blame the Polish...

I will stop here. My remarks show how useless the examples are to prove any war crime, of course notwithstanding the possibility that some of them actually are. But there is no evidence given. I wonder why none of the websites came up with the idea that the killing or wounding of each and every polish soldier was a war crime since war was not officially declared and hence the whole war a war crime...

<<And why this would be nonsense? Or, for that matter, why Polish <<government institutions would create such nonsense?
Probably for the same reason the german government during the war made up a bunch of propaganda lies of polish atrocities against german civilians and POWs. Take some actual crimes,exaggerate the numbers of victims freely, make up a lot of more incidents, don’t bother for details or the legal situation and bingo!

<<In Luftwaffe thread, i have provided two official documents from Polish <<official diplomatic corps (excerpts from Polskie Siły Zbrojne w <<Drugiej Wojnie Światowej, t. l, cz. 3, Londyn 1959, s. 7, and Jan <<Szembek, Diary Spetember-December 1939, Warsaw 1989, page <<47-49).
Wonder why you left that thread... I don’t want to repeat myself on the conclusions these reports and documents draw. While the reported killings probably are true, maybe exaggerated, they are no proof of any war crime of the Luftwaffe.

<< have provided links not only to websites made by amateurs, but to <<official state sponsored sites, like POLISH GOVERNMENT INSTITUTION <<IPN, Official page of City of Wielun (referate from historian conference <<in Wielun)
If I show a bunch of official German documents out of the German 1940 Weißbuch proving Poland started the war, would you believe that? Remember, the are official documents from German government institutions!

<<and the link to GERMAN <<NEWSPAPER die Zeit (I could made up <<story, but i think that German journalist checked some sources before <<printing article, isn't it???).
What if he checked the same sources as you? I know enough journalists to know how many (not all of course) work: Get ready with the article, don’t invest too much time and effort, best is to copy lines written by others which spares you a lot of work and deliver the article to the editor. It should be safe to assume this journalist didn’t bother about the legal discussions, Hague IV, or the military literature.

<<Just try to understand me. It's like asking me to prove that Americans <<have bombed Nagasaki. I know it happened, i could provide you with <<plethora of links, but i have no single book in my bookcase which I <<could quote. SO, you would say that Nagasaki was not bombed, since i <<haev provided only www links.
But - with all due respect – there is a difference between Nagasaki and many tiny incidents in this great war. Regarding Nagasaki it is very easy to check the flight logs, the orders and the results. Not so with your incidents.

There are plenty of crimes well documented, not in legal or factual dispute, in polish, german or other archives and documents. In the case of the incidents in this and the Luftwaffe thread the legal basics are ignored, deliberately or not, and the facts do not prove a war crime per se.

<<The investigation done by Polish procurators form IPN identified that the <<crime (burning alive of civlians in Parzymieki) was done by soldiers <<from panzer division commanded by gen. Otto Knobelsdorf...
The same Knobelsdorff who put a SD officer under arrest in Upper Silesia when this guy declared he had orders to shoot 50 polish men as insurgents and diversants without a proper trial? (Nürnberg document NO-3011)

<<See the investigation directed now by IPN. I hope that you are NOT <<denying the fact of shooting of Polish PoWs by some Wehrmacht units.
There is no reason to deny the investigations of the IPN, provided they are based on the legal situation in 1939-45 and not on the treaties and conventions after 1945, where especially the partisan warfare was newly regulated after the experiences during the war.

<<I am not implying that WHOLE Wehrmacht behaved barbarically. I am <<reacting to the assumption, that crimes were done bySS and gestapo, <<crimes done by Wehrmacth started in 1941 (the title of famous <<exhibition was "crimes of Wehrmacht 1941-1945).
No, the Wehrmacht crimes started in September 1939, not in 1941. There is plenty of evidence, for example in the Bundesarchiv- Zentralnachweisstelle in Aachen, where documents of field trials are kept. There are documents regarding Kriegsgericht investigations and german soldiers were sentenced to prison, to death etcpp. for killing POWs, raping women, plundering, murdering civilians and branding. Which happens in any army in any war.

The Wehrmacht exhibition is a perfect example of biased, pseudo-scientific crap. There were so many mistakes, deliberately wrongly placed pictures ectpp, the exhibiton had to be cancelled and overworked. Now the second edition is on tour, having corrected some of the mistakes but not all. This exhibition is widely qualified as a propaganda show.

<<"Germans about crimes of Wehrmacht" Polish edition by Bellona, <<Warsaw 1997, translation and footnotes by Barbara and Daniel Lulinski
<<Title of German original: "Gehorsam bis zum Mord? Der verschwiegene Krieg der deutschen Wehrmacht - <<Fakten, Analysen, Debatte". ISBN 83-11-08722-9
You didn’t answer my question regarding the book i the Luftwaffe thread, so i repeat it here. The ISBN number doesn’t exist or is misspelled, I couldn‘t find the book in any book catalogue. Who is the author?

Is this the exhibition catalogue?

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Post by Panzermahn » 13 Jun 2004 17:27

Quote:

2 and 3rd september 1939 in the region of Rybnik group of Polish soldiers from 12 pp was captured by Wehrmacht. They were given no pardon, "they were throwed to tha ground and over their bodies were driving tanks" (Szymon Datner, Crimes of Wehrmacht on prisoners of war during WWII", Warsaw 1964). September the 3rd near Radomsko Germans shot down POlish aircraft and captured two persons from crew. One prisoner after tortures (cutting his tongue, ears and nose) was murdered. It was done yb soldiers of 4 panzer division of XVI corps of 10th army of Reichenau. [crimes on scouts - well, they were not technically soldiers, so i omit that passage]. The same day [September the 4th] in Opatowiec near PInczow 45 Polish PoWs were shot by soldiers from 2nd light division of XV corps of 10th army.

Shooting of prisoners or their mistreating were done by, amongst others, 2nd division of XVII corps of 14 army, 207 division infnatry of 4th army, 4 panzer division of XVI corps of 10th army. THE LUFTWAFFE'S ON-GROUND FORCES WERE PARTICIPATING IN STREET EXECUTIONS IN BYDGOSZCZ. [cut the crimes in Warsaw Uprising, as they are widely known]



Hi Szopen,

Thanks for providing the sources. Anyway, i would like to enquire whether the phrase

"they were throwed to tha ground and over their bodies were driving tanks"

is a translation error or is it an exaggeration by the author. What is the source that the author relied to corrobrate the allleged act of running tanks over Polish POWs bodies? Is there medico-legal autopsy were performed to verify the conclusion that the polish POWs were indeed run over by tanks? What is the German unit accused of the act? Is there any eyewitness or testimonies concerning this alleged act? Is there any chance that the Polish POWs were shot and then were run over by the tanks? This statement does not make it clear whether the POWs were dead or not when they were thrown into the ground

Thanks again for providing the sources

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Post by xcalibur » 13 Jun 2004 17:52

Joachim Chan wrote:
Quote:

2 and 3rd september 1939 in the region of Rybnik group of Polish soldiers from 12 pp was captured by Wehrmacht. They were given no pardon, "they were throwed to tha ground and over their bodies were driving tanks" (Szymon Datner, Crimes of Wehrmacht on prisoners of war during WWII", Warsaw 1964). September the 3rd near Radomsko Germans shot down POlish aircraft and captured two persons from crew. One prisoner after tortures (cutting his tongue, ears and nose) was murdered. It was done yb soldiers of 4 panzer division of XVI corps of 10th army of Reichenau. [crimes on scouts - well, they were not technically soldiers, so i omit that passage]. The same day [September the 4th] in Opatowiec near PInczow 45 Polish PoWs were shot by soldiers from 2nd light division of XV corps of 10th army.

Shooting of prisoners or their mistreating were done by, amongst others, 2nd division of XVII corps of 14 army, 207 division infnatry of 4th army, 4 panzer division of XVI corps of 10th army. THE LUFTWAFFE'S ON-GROUND FORCES WERE PARTICIPATING IN STREET EXECUTIONS IN BYDGOSZCZ. [cut the crimes in Warsaw Uprising, as they are widely known]



Hi Szopen,

Thanks for providing the sources. Anyway, i would like to enquire whether the phrase

"they were throwed to tha ground and over their bodies were driving tanks"

is a translation error or is it an exaggeration by the author. What is the source that the author relied to corrobrate the allleged act of running tanks over Polish POWs bodies? Is there medico-legal autopsy were performed to verify the conclusion that the polish POWs were indeed run over by tanks? What is the German unit accused of the act? Is there any eyewitness or testimonies concerning this alleged act? Is there any chance that the Polish POWs were shot and then were run over by the tanks? This statement does not make it clear whether the POWs were dead or not when they were thrown into the ground

Thanks again for providing the sources



There's very little need for an autopsy to prove that a human body has been run over by anything as heavy as a tank as these incidents leave an indelible impression (pun intentional). The medico-legal protocols in this situation call for an investigation which would consist of photographic evidence, eyewitness testimony, victim identification (if possible), determination of the cause of death (in cases where there is a question as to whether the death occured prior to the crushing incident) and, finally, a coroner's determination as to the mode of death, ie, homicide, accident, or legitimate act of war.

In this particular case I think it's fair to be highly skeptical considering the lack of directly supporting scientific evidence and that the evidence so far produced appears to be entirely anecdotal.

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Post by szopen » 14 Jun 2004 09:14

I dont have Datner's book, so i don't know what were _his_ sources, unfortunately...

The Polish text quoted by all books using Datner's work is something like "zostali rzuceni na ziemie i rozjechani czolgami" (pardon, i can't taking tens of book to my work every day...)

BTW, I will answer your email in next week, if it's possible. I have to finish software project by tomorrow...

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Post by Steve » 16 Jun 2004 03:04

From "The Scourge Of The Swastica" - Lord Russell of Liverpool - Published 1954

September 4 - 200 Poles shot or burned to death in Sosnowiec also synagogue burned and 12 Jews shot.
September 6 - about 80 Poles shot in Kajetanowice.
September 8 - 300 Poles shot or burned to death in Pinczow.
September 12 - 112 skulls recovered from burnt barn, civillians who had been shot and then burned.
September ? - in Kilejoweic 160 shot or burned to death in houses over a two day period.
"A full account would be nothing less than a tedious catalogue of rapine, murder and arson." Lord Russell.

From "The War Hitler Won" - Nicholas Bethell - Published 1972.

December 27 1939 - The owner of a bar in which two German NCOs were shot is hanged outside and 120 local men shot in a suburb of Warsaw Waver.
On October 31 Hans Frank proclaimed a decree which provided the death penalty for disobedience to German authorities, damaging the property of a German, not reporting anyone committing any such offence and the bearing of arms.
From the diary of Frank "the Poles will be the slaves of the German Reich".
When a Pole met a German in uniform he was obliged to step of the pavement remove his cap and bow.
From the November 12 1939 edition of Krakauer Zeitung a paper published in Poland "Only German interests exist for us. We have not come to clean out the Polish pigsty or them".

It is indeed tedious to carry on but it should be clear that the German invasion meant the start of a climate of barbarism not seen for centuries. In this climate that commenced September 1 the story of German tanks rolling over prisoners even if not properly authenticated is I would argue more likely to have occurred than not to have occurred.

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Post by Obserwator » 06 Sep 2004 00:48

Polish Institue of National Memory has prepered an exhibition showing the countless atrocites commited by Wehrmacht troops during the september campaign of 1939
http://www.ipn.gov.pl/a_130804_wehrmacht.html
"With extreme brutality-Wehrmacht's Warcrimes in 1939 campaign"
The exhibition will be also presented in Germany.
Professor Leon Kieres said in opening ceremony that the aim of this is to make Germans aware of atrocites commited by Wehrmacht in Poland since 1939. It's aim is to challenge the German myth that crimes were commited only by members of SS while ordinery soldiers weren't involved in war crimes and genocide. Also it portreys the attempts of german courst to upheld that myth by refusing to cooparate in finding out and convicing Wehrmacht soldiers who took part in warcrimes.
The exhibiton shows crimes commited by German soldiers during the period of 1st of September till 25th of November during which Poland was under the jurisdiction of Wehrmacht and makes it responsible for this crimes.
The myth of Wehrmacht innocence was recently destroyed by exhibitions in Hamburg, but unfortunetly it created another myth-that those crimes started in 1941. The aim of this exhibition is to correct that.

That is a rough translation of parts of the text.



There are documents regarding Kriegsgericht investigations and german soldiers were sentenced to prison, to death etcpp. for killing POWs, raping women, plundering, murdering civilians and branding. Which happens in any army in any war.

Untrue.German Units were taking part in planed genocide not in isolated cases of atrocites. Hitler made it specific to Wehrmachts commanders that they are to kill"every Pole" and specific campaign of ethnic cleansing called Operation Tannenberg was put into action.
As to the assumption of people being persecuted for war crimes-you don't mention that Hitler gave amnesty to all those accused at the beginning of November 1939.
Last edited by Obserwator on 06 Sep 2004 11:03, edited 2 times in total.

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Liluh
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Post by Liluh » 06 Sep 2004 01:59

michael mills wrote:As for the shootings of Jews, I hardly think that is anything for Poles to complain about. I am sure that the Poles who witnessed or heard about such shootings would have been secretly happy to see the Germans doing what they themselves wanted to do but were unable to. The Polish right-wing nationalists, the Endecja, were particularly anti-Jewish (as well as anti-German), and their underground publications during the German occupation show that they were glad to see the end of the Jews.


You`ve got to be kidding me here? Do you imply that Poles were in general anti-semic nation, and more over would deliberately go forward in their hate to kill their Jewish neighbours? That`s a lie and insult and I would appriciate if you could stop yourself from sticking anti-semits labels following the general belief which is just a pile of steamy crap. What European country had biggest Jewish minority? Poland. For how long? Since XIV century (there was even no inquisition like in Spain). Who saved Jews more than any other nation in Europe? Poles (which was honored by modern Israel and can be easily checked). Yes, Endecja was right-winged politicial party, just like there were communists and others. Endencja didn`t focus on Jews, it was nationalistic which means they were against everyone not "Polish", but at any time, it was just a way to pump some fear and anger into society to keep on the political top.

In general, Poles had more sympathy for Jews during occupation, than hate what you try to imply. There are exceptions like Jedwabne, but it doesn`t change the situation. Tide of anti-semitism grew in nation significially with communistic propaganda and the fact most SB police members after the war were Jews, which erupted in 60`s leading to Jews being "peacefully" expelled from Poland. Some stayed, many left. Different story.

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