Partisans, terrorists?

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Karri
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Post by Karri » 28 Mar 2004 22:09

Yep, they certainly were 'terrorists' when operating in Finland, mostly targetting small villages.

Globalization41
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How Does One Define Terrorism?

Post by Globalization41 » 01 Apr 2004 09:07

War equals terrorism. Bombing
Dresden and Hiroshima were acts of
war. Propagandizing the bombings of
New York and Washington as terrorism
takes away the option of napalming
Mecca.

Globalization41

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panzertruppe2001
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Post by panzertruppe2001 » 24 Apr 2004 18:55

I think that this question depends of the countries. A partisan of the USSR was not a terrorist because it was fighting for the freedom of his/her country that was in war. But a partisan of France was a terrorist because France surrendered Germany, signed a Peace Treaty, and ended the war with Germany, so a French civilian that attacks German soldiers was a communist.

Globalization41
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Terrorism as a Tool of War

Post by Globalization41 » 24 Apr 2004 22:06

Terrorism is like a pawn in a chess match.
If one overextends a major piece on the
chessboard, your position becomes
vulnerable to attacks from cheap pawns. ...
Varieties of overextension in foreign policy
include military, political, and economic.
Hitler, Tojo, Roosevelt, Churchill, Lenin, and
Trotsky were prone to overextension; Stalin, a
chess enthusiast,
was less inclined toward
overextension. ... Despite his chauvinistic
nature, Stalin pragmatically recognized
strategic retreat as a legitimate foreign policy
option.

Globalization41

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Hanski
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Post by Hanski » 25 Apr 2004 14:58

In their posts above, kmk24 and Karri made references to "partisan" operations against Finnish civilians. For those interested, this topic has been previously discussed in detail at

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=105

Hanski

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Andy
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Post by Andy » 25 Apr 2004 18:39

French partisans were not terrorists in my opinion. THey were heroes, I have a lot of respect for them. Who cares if the French Gov. signed a peace treaty? The germans were still invaders and occupiers.

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panzertruppe2001
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Post by panzertruppe2001 » 25 Apr 2004 22:49

Interesting opinion Andy, and what do you think if in 1945 or 1946 a german citizen threw a bomb and kill american soldiers. Was he a terrorist or a freedom fighter?

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Vesper
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Post by Vesper » 27 Apr 2004 21:13

The Germans had different techniques of judging whether someone was a partisan or not. This could range from collaboration with known partisans, living in an area of partisan activity, owning a weapon or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. There are many accounts of indiscriminate killings.

"All in all, 387 civilians were killed within the space of six days, at a total cost of ten killed and eleven wounded Germans. The low number of German casualties may serve as an indication that most Russian dead were anything but guerrillas."

Omer, Bartov. The Eastern Front, 1941-45, German Troops and the Barbarisation of Warfare p.122, 2001.

michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 29 Apr 2004 23:05

"All in all, 387 civilians were killed within the space of six days, at a total cost of ten killed and eleven wounded Germans. The low number of German casualties may serve as an indication that most Russian dead were anything but guerrillas."

Omer, Bartov. The Eastern Front, 1941-45, German Troops and the Barbarisation of Warfare p.122, 2001.
Omer's tendentious conclusion is not justified by the mere fact of a great disparity in casualties, which might be simply due to the superior armament of one side.

A similar situation obtains in the current fighting in Iraq between occupation forces and Iraqi guerillas, where the casualties of the occupiers are counted in the tens while those of the lightly armed guerillas are counted in the hundreds.

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Foelkersam
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Post by Foelkersam » 06 May 2004 23:54

As i see it the group who suffers the most by partisan/resistance fightings are the civilian population. When the army are getting attacked by theese freedomfighters they will try to take them out and then the civilian population will get hurt in the middle. We have armies with uniforms so that the civilists should not get hurt.

I find no reason to celebrate theese groups. The civilians will always get more damage than the army, the Oradur sur Glane incident are a good example of this. Im not supporting the action taken by the Germans their, all i'm saying is that it is a fact that the civilians got hurt. Proberly did the French resistance more damage to their population than to the Germans.

/Regards David

Udet
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i see yo yo scrap

Post by Udet » 08 Jul 2004 09:00

Deleted!
Last edited by Udet on 05 Oct 2004 22:10, edited 1 time in total.

Globalization41
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Hungarians Fight Serb Guerrillas

Post by Globalization41 » 08 Jul 2004 10:45

Ankara, Turkey, By Telephone to The New
York Times,
By Ray Brock, Saturday, May 24,
1941:
The Hungarian army of occupation in
Northern Yugoslav Bachka and Banat districts
is conducting a violent campaign to stamp out
resistance and destroy active bands of Serbian
guerrilla fighters.
... This correspondent, who
recently motored from Belgrade to Budapest,
was able to verify the reports current in
Central and Southern Serbia. The seeds of
bitterness and hate were sown in the last war
[1914-1918] by the Austro-Hungarian armies,
nourished by Serbian reprisals. ... The
Serbian guerrillas who had faded away during
the German onslaught [in April] suddenly
sprang up again when the Hungarian
occupation began. ... Sentries were killed by
snipers, night patrols were ambushed, and
there was widespread sabotage. ... The
Hungarian General Staff, startled by the
success of the guerrilla operations
rushed more
troops into the affected area districts. ...
Sunset curfew was ordered in a dozen cities
and villages. The Hungarians posted warnings
that sentries would shoot to kill any one who
appeared in the streets after nightfall, that the
possession of arms would be punished by
death,
and that no resistance would be
tolerated. Resistance, nevertheless, continued.
... Hungarian residents in the Bachka [district],
terrified by the continued warfare,
dynamitings, and shootings in the night, fled in
large numbers
to Southern Hungary and to
Budapest. One well-to-do Hungarian Yugoslav
refugee told this correspondent in Budapest:
"We had many friends among the people
around our estate -- just north of Novi Sad --
but the feelings of the Serbs there are so
aroused against all Hungarians now that
anybody who even speaks Hungarian is likely
to have his throat cut
or be shot by the
Chetniks." ... ... In the "New Hungary" in
occupied Northern Yugoslavia, a Serbian
Chetnik told this correspondent that he saw
three Serbs hanged [for defacing Hungarian
propaganda posters]
near Pribichevichevo
[after a Hungarian] "soldier shot them through
the legs and left them lying behind the barn
under guard until midnight. We killed
Hungarians the same night, eight of them; we
stabbed them to death in their billet in a house
near the village."

London, United Press, The New York Times,
Sunday, May 25, 1941: [Late Saturday, U.S.
time]
The Air Ministry reported today that the
Royal Air Force carried out a blazing attack on
Cologne
over Friday night, the first big-scale
attack upon Germany since last Sunday's raid.
... In addition, the Air Ministry reported the
R.A.F. bombed airdrome and ports in occupied
territory, particularly the docks at St. Nazaire,
a Nazi submarine base. British bombs also
rained on the invasion coast near Boulogne
and on other targets in Northwest France. ...
There has been no German raiding in any
appreciable strength over Britain since the
attack on R.A.F. airdromes May 11, the night
after Rudolf Hess [No. 3 Nazi] came to earth
in Scotland. [From Stalin's point of view: Why
did the Germans decrease air raids shortly
after Hess's flight to Britain? Was Hitler
eyeing the Ukraine? Was he about to offer
peace to Churchill, who was anti-Soviet, knew
of Stalin's criminality, and had no chance of
defeating the Germans? What would Stalin do
if he were Churchill or Hitler?]


Cairo, Egypt, Special Cable to The New York
Times,
Saturday, May 24, 1941: According to
official reports here today, Soddu, an important
road junction north of Lake Abaya and about
110 miles south of Addis Ababa, is in British
hands. Sharp fighting preceded the fall of
Soddu, it is stated. British West African troops
captured several hundred prisoners and a
number of guns and trucks with slight losses
to themselves. ... The major force of two
Italian divisions in the Lakes region of
Southwestern Ethiopia has now been
completely surrounded by British Imperial
troops. The rains are not stopping the British
assaults. ... Further south, other West
Africans occupied Uondo and took 600
Italians, with artillery, armored cars, and
other equipment. ... With the addition of the
garrison [estimated at 10,000] in the Gondar
area in the northwest, the Italians still fighting
in Ethiopia number about 40,000. ... More
than 30,000 Italian troops still remain in the
Lakes region [to the south], but with about
10,000 isolated near Soddu and the others
[20,000] split by the inroads of British
columns. The chance of the Italian
commander, General Pietro Gazzera, being
able to rally his forces seems remote. ... Near
Gondar an Italian force Friday made futile
counterattacks against a ridge above Chelga
that the British Sudan defense force occupied
a few days ago.

The New York Times, Saturday, May 24,
1941:
Memorial Day traffic deaths next Friday
through Sunday will reach 400 nationally, the
National Safety Council forecast today. ...
One hundred persons died in motor vehicle
accidents on the one-day holiday last year,
the council said. It cited this year's "national
traffic toll running 16 per cent ahead" of 1940
and anticipated heavy traffic on the three-day
weekend as reasons for the 300 per cent
increase for the holiday fatalities predicted.

[Stay tuned for late breaking war bulletins.
... Globalization41.]

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Klaus Yurk
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Post by Klaus Yurk » 08 Jul 2004 11:02

While I will never agree with death as a punishment, I do think partisans indeed deserved real harsh measures, since they do not comply with what perhaps constitutes the most basic element of warfare: to distinguish those individuals who are combatants from those who are non combatants.
For that reason, I think that technically, all partisans, guerillas, and spies are outside the protection, such as it is, of both International Law and the Geneva Convention. It is my understanding that those prohibitions apply only to uniformed soldiers. In other words, I think a country basically has the right to do whatever it wants with partisans and the like. Technically.

At the end of WWII, I believe that even the US shot Germans that they thought were guilty of sabotage or other guerilla activity (ie the Werewolves, for one.)

Interesting that someone mentioned Israel and the Palestinians. Before there was even a state of Israel, the Jewish immigrants there engaged in what has to be called guerilla activity against the British. The Kind David hotel was bombed by Jewish guerillas. The British used to execute them when they could find them. Now the shoe is on the other foot.

I think the "guerilla-freedom fighter" distinction depends on who is looking at the picture. And every country has dealt brutally with people of this sort. And although I am not a lawyer, seems to have the "right" to do so.

Klaus

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Post by Brotherhood of the Cross » 09 Jul 2004 10:33

Well if the war is won, the partisans are heroes and if it is lost then they are fanatics. Same with the traitors.

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Klaus Yurk
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Post by Klaus Yurk » 09 Jul 2004 21:38

Well if the war is won, the partisans are heroes and if it is lost then they are fanatics. Same with the traitors.
Well, that is another factor. Among the group that blew up the King David hotel, one I believe many years later became Prime Minister of Israel. Had they lost, he would have probably had quite a different fate.

"Treason is largely a matter of dates," to paraphrase Cardinal Richeleu (sp?). Not exactly my attitude, but sometimes that too plays into the equation.

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