Why no uprising against the Holocaust

Benoit Douville · Post by **Benoit Douville** » 11 Jul 2004 23:44

This maybe a complicated topic but why the German people didn't revolt against the Holocaust commited by the SS against the Jews and other minority? I am sure someone will claim that the German population was not aware of the extermination of the Jews, well I know that the German people was aware of the extermination of the mental trouble person in Germany and Hitler had to stop that. I know that Anti-Semitism was strong in Germany and in other country in Europe but to go that far to killed and exterminated an entire Nation is insane. I don't remember if this topic have been discussed before, if so I am sure David will point me in the right direction.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 12 Jul 2004 01:10

Interested readers might want to take a look at this thread for some background:

Secrecy and the Final Solution
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=54395

alf · Post by **alf** » 12 Jul 2004 04:19

The case of the "White Rose" movement in Munich goes some way to answering why there was no general revolt,

That they failed was perhaps preordained; that they dared to try is a testament to their humanity

http://www.holocaust-history.org/short- ... rose.shtml

The White Rose

The White Rose is a shining example of resistance to Hitler, but also of the ruthlessness which the Nazis authorities showed when faced with any opposition. In early 1943, the fortunes of war were clearly turning against the Germans. The battle of Stalingrad had been a complete disaster, resulting in the surrender of the Sixth Army on January 31, 1943. Around this time, a small group of students, mostly centered in the University of Munich, began openly to agitate against the Nazi regime. They saw the war as lost, the good things they had thought would result from the Nazis in the 1930s as having been thrown away, and were horrified at the mistreatment of the Jews. The leaders of the student revolt were Hans Scholl (25), a medical student and his sister Sophie (21), a biology student. Hans Scholl had been an enthusiastic member of the Hitler Youth in 1933, but he quickly became disillusioned with Nazism as its inhumanity and barbarism became more and more clear with the passage of time.

People who have never lived under a totalitarian government have difficulty understanding how difficult it was - and how dangerous - to organize opposition to the government. The Nazis in particular were organized right down to the street level and people were encouraged to inform on their parents, relatives, and friends to the Gestapo; in short, anyone who manifested disagreement with the Nazis could be in serious trouble. Under the law of the Third Reich, over 5,000 people were executed for such trivial offenses as making jokes about Hitler or listening to radio broadcasts from Britain.

Most of the White Rose members were medical students, except for Sophie Scholl, who majored in biology and philosophy, and many had Jewish friends or classmates, who had been persecuted under the Nazis, Their disillusionment became most pronounced as the brutality of the regime became more apparent and especially when the mass deportations of the Jews began.

The White Rose began distributing anti-government leaflets in mid 1942. The main authors were Hans Scholl, Alex Schmorell, and George
Wittenstein (see below) who wrote four leaflets and distributed about 100 copies of them. Of the 100, 35 fell into the hands of the Gestapo. At about this time, Sophie Scholl joined the group. It is known that Hans Scholl coined the expression "leaflets of the White Rose", but the origin of the expression is unclear. The leaflets protested against the brutality and evil of the government, and against the extermination of the Jews, which was beginning to become known to more and more people at this time.

In summer 1942, many of the male medical students at the University of Munich were obliged to serve a three-month stint on the Russian front. Several of the White Rose members were among them. There they saw with their own eyes the horrors of war, and there they also saw the unbelievable cruelty the Germans displayed to the Jews. They personally witnessed beatings and other mistreatment and heard reliable stories of the persecution of the Jews then in full swing. They returned in November 1942.

In February 1943, the Gauleiter (District Leader) of Bavaria, Paul Giesler, addressed the students at the University of Munich. By then, he was already aware of some of the White Rose activities. He sneeringly said that the female students should be producing children for the Reich rather than wasting time studying and added: "If some of the girls lack sufficient charm to find a mate, I will assign each of them one of my adjutants." Female students who attempted to leave the session were arrested by the Gestapo, which led to a general riot and the eventual freedom of the women.

Several more activist leaflets soon followed, more and more revolutionary in nature, with the last ones calling openly for the overthrow of the government. By a stroke of bad luck, Sophie and Hans Scholl were observed dumping some of these leaflets out of a window at the university, were betrayed to the Gestapo and arrested. More than 80 arrests throughout Germany soon followed.

The Scholls and another collaborator were almost immediately (February 22, 1943) brought before the People's Court (Volksgerichtshof), a creation of the Nazi Party and feared for its denial of justice and cruelty. They were convicted of treason in a trial lasting only about 4 hours and sentenced to death by guillotine. Sophie Scholl had been mistreated so much in her "questioning" by the Gestapo that she arrived in court with a broken leg. But in a display of great courage, she stood up to the President of the Court, Roland Freisler (known for his perversion of justice), saying: "You know as well as we do that the war is lost. Why are you so cowardly that you won't admit it?"

The Scholls were executed the same day. A few days later, several of their colleagues were executed. The White Rose was finished.

Although they actually accomplished little (obviously they had no realistic chance of accomplishing very much from the outset), the White Rose students serve as an example that not all Germans blindly went along with Hitler. Their activities are important to include in any assessment of the reaction of Germans to Hitler, and what is striking is that the persecution of the Jews played a major role in galvanizing them into more open and radical opposition to the Hitler government. In spite of the difficulties they faced, they were imbued with a willingness to risk it all for their country and for the victims of its terrible practices. That they failed was perhaps preordained; that they dared to try is a testament to their humanity.

Sergey Romanov · Post by **Sergey Romanov** » 12 Jul 2004 09:58

It's not for nothing that Jews were exterminated in far-away camps in Poland, not in Germany. Some people undoubtedly knew, but not the majority.

Lucius Felix Silla · Post by **Lucius Felix Silla** » 12 Jul 2004 17:03

Sergey Romanov wrote:It's not for nothing that Jews were exterminated in far-away camps in Poland, not in Germany. Some people undoubtedly knew, but not the majority.

Who, for example?

LFS

Best Regards

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 12 Jul 2004 17:50

LFS -- See:

Who was in charge of the holocaust?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=6096

Which offices/officials were responsible for Final Solution?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=25012

Lucius Felix Silla · Post by **Lucius Felix Silla** » 12 Jul 2004 18:08

David Thompson wrote:LFS -- See:

Who was in charge of the holocaust?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=6096

Which offices/officials were responsible for Final Solution?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=25012

I think that You don't have understand the proposition of Mr. SergeyRomanov, my question and the topic in discussion here.

The topic here is: why the german people don't have do something in order to stop the killing of jews.
The proposition of Mr. SergeyRomanov is that the majority of german people don't known much, but that some people undoubtedly known.
My question is: who (german people, not nazi's leadership!) knew?

As for the threads You suggested, really never i have seen so much speculations and hypothetical informations.

LFS

Best Regards

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 12 Jul 2004 18:22

Sergey Romanov remarked:

It's not for nothing that Jews were exterminated in far-away camps in Poland, not in Germany. Some people undoubtedly knew, but not the majority.

LFS asked:

Who, for example?

I directed LFS to two threads on who knew about the holocaust.

LFS then replied:

I think that You don't have understand the proposition of Mr. SergeyRomanov, my question and the topic in discussion here.

The topic here is: why the german people don't have do something in order to stop the killing of jews.
The proposition of Mr. SergeyRomanov is that the majority of german people don't known much, but that some people undoubtedly known.
My question is: who (german people, not nazi's leadership!) knew?

Thank you for clarifying that, since it was not obvious from your question. What are you asking for -- a list of names of ordinary Germans? And why are you asking -- do you doubt Sergey's proposition?

LFS then concluded:

As for the threads You suggested, really never i have seen so much speculations and hypothetical informations.

Given the arguments you characteristically advance, you should feel right at home with any "speculations and hypothetical informations" you found there.

Lucius Felix Silla · Post by **Lucius Felix Silla** » 12 Jul 2004 18:31

David Thompson wrote:Sergey Romanov remarked:
It's not for nothing that Jews were exterminated in far-away camps in Poland, not in Germany. Some people undoubtedly knew, but not the majority.
LFS asked:
Who, for example?

I directed LFS to two threads on who knew about the holocaust.

LFS then replied:
I think that You don't have understand the proposition of Mr. SergeyRomanov, my question and the topic in discussion here.

The topic here is: why the german people don't have do something in order to stop the killing of jews.
The proposition of Mr. SergeyRomanov is that the majority of german people don't known much, but that some people undoubtedly known.
My question is: who (german people, not nazi's leadership!) knew?
Thank you for clarifying that, since it was not obvious from your question. What are you asking for -- a list of names of ordinary Germans? And why are you asking -- do you doubt Sergey's proposition?

LFS then concluded:
As for the threads You suggested, really never i have seen so much speculations and hypothetical informations.
Given the arguments you characteristically advance, you should feel right at home with any "speculations and hypothetical informations" you found there.

Of course: after two months of debate i'm still waiting for one simple proof of the existence of homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz...until now i have seen speculations, untrue statements, contrary proofs (as aerial photos) and the...(famous) convergence of 1/4 of proof with another 1/4 of proof with 1/2 of proof...

So don't speak too much, stay on topic, reply with arguments not with 1/4 of page of one vocabulary dated 1939...Thanks in advance!

Best Regards

LFS

Lucius Felix Silla · Post by **Lucius Felix Silla** » 12 Jul 2004 18:46

David Thompson wrote:Interested readers might want to take a look at this thread for some background:

Secrecy and the Final Solution
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=54395

Can anyone explicate to me two contradictory statements?

According to DT the Final Solution was the "most terrible secret" (see Walter Laqueur) of NS leadership.

But for Mr. SergeyRomanov much german ordinary (not the majority, sic!), common people knew.

So?

Best Regards

LFS

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » 12 Jul 2004 18:53

This thread is on "Why no uprising against the Holocaust", not the gas chambers, please stay on topic.

/Marcus

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 12 Jul 2004 19:07

LFS -- You said:

According to DT the Final Solution was the "most terrible secret" (see Walter Laqueur) of NS leadership.

I have never said that the "Final Solution" was the "most terrible secret" of the NS leadership, or anything like it. If you're going to quote me, please be accurate. If you can't find a quote, then don't bother to use my initials.

WalterS · Post by **WalterS** » 12 Jul 2004 19:23

LFS wrote:

Of course: after two months of debate i'm still waiting for one simple proof of the existence of homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz...until now i have seen speculations, untrue statements, contrary proofs (as aerial photos) and the...(famous) convergence of 1/4 of proof with another 1/4 of proof with 1/2 of proof...

This is truly laughable. Of course you haven't seen any proof because you refuse to. The rest of us got tired of trying to have an intelligent discussion with someone who will deny any and all facts, testimony, evidence that does not comport with his denial views of the Holocaust. You post suppositions and hyperbole and expect them to be accepted as fact, but then strenuously deny even the most obvious.

I would also advocate that the so-called Holocaust denial rule be revoked because it is a joke. It's not enforced. Denial of the gassing of large numbers of people *IS* denial of the Holocaust. It's interesting to watch LFS and others squirm around the rule by issuing their non-denial denials all the time. Just can the rule.

Benoit Douville · Post by **Benoit Douville** » 13 Jul 2004 02:37

Alf,

The story of the White Rose is pretty interesting. The story of Sophie Scholl is pretty moving too, I really like her answer to Freisler "You know as well as we do that the war is lost. Why are you so cowardly that you won't admit it."

I appreciate your post
Regards

lechon · Post by **lechon** » 31 Jul 2004 17:47

Why there was not a german popular uprising against holocaust?

This is a good question. Someone in this topic said that most people doesn't know how it is to live in a dictatorship, and this is true. It is hard to put oneself in the skin of a person living in the Third Reich.
My theory is that some people knew the fact of the holocaust in first hand, lots knew it second hand and didnt tried to do anything, and the rest of the country had heard rumours, tales and were suspicios but THEY DIDN'T WANT TO KNOW. Imagine that you began to see some people around you being deported for ethnic, religious or political reasons, but the authorities says that they are relocating them in labour camps... some time later you begin to hear tales of mass murder... there are things so horrible that normal people do not want to know about it. I´m sure also that EVERYBODY in Germany at that time, with some exceptions of course (maybe people living in isolated places with no connections on the camps, and some other particular cases), had heard at least some rumours. There is something morbid in the human being, that makes almost impossible that someone who knew anything about the holocaust didnt't comunicate it and stay silent. In the other hand I´m sure that only some people knew about the real proportions of the killing.

I'll put an example to clarify my theory.

I'm sure most of you have seen a fine film called "Judgement at Nuremberg" with Spencer Tracy, Burt Lancaster, etc... based on the trial of some nazi judges in Nuremberg. Well there is a scene, when Spencer Tracy is having a sandwich in the kitchen of the house where he stays, talking with the two servants. He ask them if they knew anything about what had happenned (talking on the holocaust). The wife says that they were not implicated in polithic, that they didn't knew about the killing, and she gets nervous. In that moment, the husband asks (treasonig himself) that what would have they have done if they were been aware of the killing.

The mass is not inteligent, only the individual. It is easy, but not fair to conmdem the german people in general. Question is: Would the population of any other country have reacted in a better way in the same situation?. My answer is no.

LECHON

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