Life in Occupied Russia

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
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Landser
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Post by Landser » 03 Dec 2004 20:25

Drobjatski Sergei wrote:Joke is a joke...
I think they would work as a slave at some faktory or mine instead of driving a "benz"... :D



Well the Spiegel did not call that story a joke.

Even former slaves drive "Benz's' nowadays :D

Maybe not in RU.

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Drobjatski Sergei
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Post by Drobjatski Sergei » 03 Dec 2004 20:43

I don't mean this concrete story, it really shoked me, our veterans don't deserve to hear theese words from a younger generation! :( But in general, nazis had other plans for people from east...

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Post by David Thompson » 03 Dec 2004 21:23

Nazi slaving in the occupied USSR

Document: *3040-PS; Description: Secret order of Reichsfuehrer SS, 2/20/1942, concerning commitment of manpower from the East. (USA 207)
viewtopic.php?p=553320#553320

Document: *016-PS; Description: Sauckel's Labor Mobilization Program, 4/20/1942. (USA 168)
viewtopic.php?p=553335#553335

Document: *EC-347; Description: Directives for operation of the Economy in Occupied Eastern Territories. (USA 320)
viewtopic.php?p=553395#553395

Document: *084-PS; Description: Interdepartmental report of Ministry for Occupied Eastern Territories, 9/30/1942, concerning status of Eastern laborers. (USA 199)
viewtopic.php?p=553403#553403

Document: *017-PS; Description: Letter from Sauckel to Reichsminister for the Occupied Eastern Territories, 10/5/1942, concerning mobilization of foreign labor forces. (USA 180)
viewtopic.php?p=553407#553407

Document: *054-PS; Description: Report to Reich Ministry for Occupied Eastern Territories, 10/7/1942, concerning treatment of Ukrainian Specialists. (USA 198)
viewtopic.php?p=553424#553424

Document: *294-PS; Description: Top secret memorandum signed by Brautigam, 10/26/1942, concerning conditions in Russia. (USA 185)
viewtopic.php?p=553428#553428

Document: 1381-PS; Description: Secret report of the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories on Political and Economic Situation in these Territories, December 1942
viewtopic.php?p=554223#554223
viewtopic.php?p=554225#554225

Document: *018-PS; Description: Letter from Rosenberg to Sauckel, 12/21/1942, concerning labor in the East. (USA 186).
viewtopic.php?p=554230#554230

Document: *407-II-PS; Description: Letter from Sauckel to Hitler, 10 March 1943, concerning difficulty in recruiting of workers in former Soviet territories. (USA 226)
viewtopic.php?p=554237#554237

Document: *019-Page; Description: Letter from Sauckel to Rosenberg, 3/17/1943, concerning draft of workers from the East. (USA 181)
viewtopic.php?p=554242#554242

Document: *3012-PS; Description: Order signed Christiansen, 3/19/1943, to all group leaders of Security Service, and record of telephone conversation signed by Stapf, 3/11/1943. (USA 190)
viewtopic.php?p=554246#554246

Document; *2280-PS; Description: Letter from Reichs Commissar for Ostland, 3 May 1943, concerning recruiting of manpower in Baltic Countries for Reich territories. (USA 183)
viewtopic.php?p=554250#554250

Document: *3000-PS; Description: Report, from Chief of Main Office III with the High Command in Minsk to Reicke, 28 June 1943, on experiences in political and economic problems in the East, particularly White Ruthenia. (USA 192)
viewtopic.php?p=554256#554256

Document: *265-PS; Description: Memorandum of oral report by Lyser to Rosenberg, 30 June 1943, on situation in district Shitomir. (USA 191)
viewtopic.php?p=554260#554260

Document: *290-PS; Description: Letter from Rosenberg Ministry, 12 November 1943, concerning burning of houses in Mueller's district. (USA 189)
viewtopic.php?p=554773#554773

Document: *254-PS; Description: Letter from Raab to Reichsminister for Occupied Eastern Territories, 6/7/1944, concerning burning of houses in Wassilkow district. (USA 188)
viewtopic.php?p=554778#554778

Document: *031-PS; Description: Memorandum, 12 June 1944, concerning evaluation of youths from the territory of Army Group "Center", and interoffice memorandum, Ministry for Occupied Eastern Territories. (USA 171)
viewtopic.php?p=554785#554785

Document: 200-PS; Description: Confidential telegram from Berger to Reich Ministry for Occupied Eastern Territories, 7/8/1944 concerning forced labor of children
viewtopic.php?p=554798#554798

Document: *199-PS; Description: Letter from Alfred Meyer to Sauckel, 11 July 1944, concerning forced labor of children. (USA 606)
viewtopic.php?p=554801#554801

How the Nazi occupation failed in Galicia/ Ukraine
viewtopic.php?p=431283#431283

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Drobjatski Sergei
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Post by Drobjatski Sergei » 03 Dec 2004 23:12

That's exactly what I've meant.
P.S. David, thanks for the info.

Regards
/Sergei

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Post by David Thompson » 04 Dec 2004 04:09

So far from Russians and Ukrainians driving Mercedes automobiles during the Nazi occupation, those people weren't even driving their own livestock. See the Wehrmacht policies on confiscating cattle, horses, pigs, and sheep at:

19410523 Document: *EC-126; Description: Economic Policy Directive for Economic Organization, East, Agricultural Group, 5/23/1941. (USA 316)
viewtopic.php?p=552155#552155

Letter from Koerner to 44 individuals, including Lammers, Kehrl, Darre, Schwerin von Krosigk and Pleiger, 20 November 1941, forwarding a memorandum 'On the Essential Results of the Discussion of Economic Policy and Economic Organization in the Recently Occupied Eastern Territories', in Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals Under Control Council Law No. 10. Vol. 13: United States of America v. Ernst von Weizsaecker, et al. (Case 11: 'Ministries Case'). US Government Printing Office, District of Columbia: 1952.
viewtopic.php?p=566144#566144

19421200 Document: 1381-PS; Description: Secret report of the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories on Political and Economic Situation in these Territories, December 1942
viewtopic.php?p=554223#554223

51st Report of Himmler to Hitler, 29 December 1942, concerning 'results in combatting partisans from 1 September 1942 to 1 December 1942,' containing statistics showing the execution of over 300000 people, the capture of weapons and ammunition, villages searched or burned down, German casualties, and related matters, in Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals Under Control Council Law No. 10. Vol. 13: United States of America v. Ernst von Weizsaecker, et al. (Case 11: 'Ministries Case'). US Government Printing Office, District of Columbia: 1952. pp. 269-271.
viewtopic.php?p=564359#564359

19430630 Document: *265-PS; Description: Memorandum of oral report by Lyser to Rosenberg, 30 June 1943, on situation in district Shitomir. (USA 191)
viewtopic.php?p=554260#554260

19431100 Document: *1702-PS; Description: Report on evacuation of Kasatin November-December 1943. (USA 193)
viewtopic.php?p=554860#554860

I probably shouldn't forget to mention Generalplan Ost, in which the Nazis anticipated 30 million or more Russians would die of famine because of seizures of grain and fats to feed the Reich. See generally the 10-page thread "Nazi occupation policies for the USSR" at:
viewtopic.php?t=61454

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Post by bratello » 04 Dec 2004 10:18

For the Germans the Russians were obviously untermenschen (I hope I spelled it right) and the former had no plans to improve life for the latter. And why should they if for centuries Russians' own master from Peter the Great to Joseph Stalin (with few exceptions in between) treated the general population as cattle. Somewhere in "the Comedians" (which is set in Haiti) Graham Greene writes that the local police would never torture a white man simply because he's is white. Well, the rest of Europe always saw the Russians as a breed apart, definitely not as "white people" as themselves. One of the reasons for that being the fact that ...(see above about Peter the Great and Stalin). Half of the France was occupied, but the Germans never had plans to exterminate the French (even though, apparently, Hitler placed them somewhere between the Jews and the Blacks). Germans expected 30 million Rusians to die from starvation, by that time Stalin successfully starved millions. The occupying power rarely improves life on the occupied territory even though in the case of Russia it would have been easy.

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Post by David Thompson » 05 Dec 2004 06:24

For an overview of the disastrous effects of these Nazi policies, see "The Soviet Partisan Movement 1941-1944" at: viewtopic.php?t=65387

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Post by bratello » 05 Dec 2004 10:54

I do not know what is the source of the US study on the subject of Russian partisans, but it is worth keeping in mind that the history of the "Partisan Movement" as written by the Soviet sources makes part of the official Soviet history written by the Soviet "historians". Until the late 80s Soviet historiography could easily make it into Orwell's "1984". The size of the partisan movement as presented by the Soviets was most probably overblown in order to counterbalance the size of Russian participation on the German side (Vlasov, etc.). The Soviets had to show to the world that the population of the occupied territories raised as one to fight the Germans which was not necessary the case.

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Post by David Thompson » 05 Dec 2004 11:15

The Soviet Partisan Movement 1941–1944 is based almost entirely on documents now in the custody of the United States Government. These comprise the voluminous collection of German Army records, including the Rosenberg and Himmler files, now located in the Captured Records Section of The Adjutant General's Office and the records of the various trials of war criminals following World War II which are now in the National Archives.

Specifically the German Army records used were those portions pertaining to German planning and operations and to partisan organization and operations. These included army war diaries (KTB's) and their supporting papers, operations and intelligence reports, minutes of conferences, telegrams, and transcripts of telephone conversations, and the like, from division level through army group and army group rear area to include the High Command of the Army (OKH) and the Armed Forces High Command (OKW) . They were supplemented by manuscript histories prepared after the war by more than two hundred German officers working under the direction of the Historical Division, EUCOM. Limited use was made of German naval and air force records, for the most part in relation to the political aspects of the decision to attack the Soviet Union. For the period to September 1942, the most valuable single source for over-all guidance and general information was "The Private War Journal of Generaloberst Franz Halder." For the political aspects of both the planning for the invasion of Russia and the political occupation as far as it was put into effect, the Rosenberg and Himmler files and the records of the war crimes trials were used extensively.

Secondary sources were used only for orientation and general background material. No Soviet secondary sources were used because of their general unreliability. A selected bibliography of secondary sources is appended. (emphasis added)


The Soviet Partisan Movement 1941-1944, p. 215.

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Post by bratello » 05 Dec 2004 15:55

Thank you for the clarification re: sources. To elaborate on my point: the partisan movement on the occupied territories was, probably, more of a planned effort by Red Army HQ than a spontaneous uprising of the masses (especially Ukrainian masses). Just like the Communist movement in Europe which was very much a product of Comintern activity emanating from Moscow (when Stalin exterminated Polish communists working for Comintern in Moscow there was not any homegrown Polish Communist Party left in Poland) or like Soviet "volunteers" fighting in Spain who were Soviet army officers sent to and recalled from Spain on Stalin's order. One example: many a generation of post WW2 Soviet children were taught in school about the "heroic partizanka" (i.e. partizan-girl) Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya who, while performing her duty towards Motherland, was caught by the Germans, tortured and executed. Poems and songs were written about Zoya, factorie, schools and ships were named after her. Only in the late 80s the true story of Zoya came to light: she was indeed trained by the Red Army and send behind the enemy lines to commit acts of sabotage. After she set several houses were German troops were lodged on fire, she was captured by Russian peasants (in the Russian countryside arson is considered a crime more serious than murder) and given to the Germans who executed her for her "crimes". So much for the popular uprising!

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Drobjatski Sergei
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Post by Drobjatski Sergei » 05 Dec 2004 17:13

:o very intertesting, i didn't know about Zoja, I mean the truth...

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Post by bratello » 05 Dec 2004 18:05

Sergei wrote: "...i didn't know about Zoja, I mean the truth..."
The "true" story of Zoya, Pavlik Morozov, Alexander Matrosov and any other Soviet "heroe" is very different from what was presented by the Soviet official myth creators. I may not know the "true" story of everyone of the above, but I know there is one. Same applies to George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. Every society needs and creates its own myths, just don't get fooled!

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Post by David Thompson » 05 Dec 2004 18:39

bratello -- You wrote:
One example: many a generation of post WW2 Soviet children were taught in school about the "heroic partizanka" (i.e. partizan-girl) Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya who, while performing her duty towards Motherland, was caught by the Germans, tortured and executed. Poems and songs were written about Zoya, factorie, schools and ships were named after her. Only in the late 80s the true story of Zoya came to light: she was indeed trained by the Red Army and send behind the enemy lines to commit acts of sabotage. After she set several houses were German troops were lodged on fire, she was captured by Russian peasants (in the Russian countryside arson is considered a crime more serious than murder) and given to the Germans who executed her for her "crimes". So much for the popular uprising!

How does this diminish either Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya or the concept of a popular uprising? Would you like a list of urls to the German reports I compiled showing arson as a routine Nazi policy in the USSR? Perhaps you overlooked the several examples I've already posted in this thread, namely:

51st Report of Himmler to Hitler, 29 December 1942, concerning 'results in combatting partisans from 1 September 1942 to 1 December 1942,' containing statistics showing the execution of over 300000 people, the capture of weapons and ammunition, villages searched or burned down, German casualties, and related matters, in Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals Under Control Council Law No. 10. Vol. 13: United States of America v. Ernst von Weizsaecker, et al. (Case 11: 'Ministries Case'). US Government Printing Office, District of Columbia: 1952. pp. 269-271.
viewtopic.php?p=564359#564359

Document: *290-PS; Description: Letter from Rosenberg Ministry, 12 November 1943, concerning burning of houses in Mueller's district. (USA 189)
viewtopic.php?p=554773#554773

This correspondence also mentions a directive of the German Commissioner General in Lusk of 1 September 1942, referring to the extreme urgency of the national conscription (slave labor):
"Estates of those who refuse to work are to be burned, their relatives are to be arrested as hostages and to be brought to forced labor camps."


Document: *254-PS; Description: Letter from Raab to Reichsminister for Occupied Eastern Territories, 6/7/1944, concerning burning of houses in Wassilkow district. (USA 188)
viewtopic.php?p=554778#554778

Should each and every and all of those Wehrmacht and SS men been beaten by thugs and then hanged in the snow like Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya was?

Teenage Soviet Hero Executed 61 Years Ago
http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/11/26/39979.html
Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya
http://www.vor.ru/English/Victory/vict_20.html

Photos of the execution at:
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/ ... ontact.htm

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Scorched Earth and Famine

Post by 295th » 05 Dec 2004 18:54

Let us be careful with generalizations. Life in an occupied area depends on two factors: The plans of the rulers; and how those on the ground then execute orders. My grandfather was the chief medical officer of the 295th Infantry Division, where there also was a Ukrainian communications unit and a Turkmen Bataillon. From reading his letters and talking to his fellow soldiers in the 1970ers (they're all dead now) I can't say that they saw Ukrainians and Russians as sub-humans, quite the contrary. They were staunchly anti-Communists, and felt sorry for them, seeing the devastation Stalin had brought. They felt somewhat smugly superior to the locals (the way Americans then felt superior to Mexicans), but that Slavs were sub-humans--no. And they were not an exception. I read about the topic since 2 decades. My PhD in history helps, too, in understanding historiographical battles.

On the starvation issue, whatever Hitler planned the situation from the beginning was awful for the civilian population because Stalin had ordered a "scorched earth" retreat and the food supply destroyed. Where there is no food, you'll have famine, Hitler plans or not, and any army in that situation would channel the limited supply to its own at the peril of the local enemy population. There are debates over whether the plan to leave the local people with an average ration of 2,000 kcal per day amounted to planned starvation or not--postwar rations in the US Zone were 1500 kcal in 1946, and no one is accusing the Americans of deliberate starvation.

But it remains true that Hitler's policy was needlessly brutal, and so, despite the good-will of the bulk of the German army towards the nations they were liberating from Stalin, led to tragedy for many--including the tragedy of remaining under Stalin's rule. What that rule represented is described among else in the various works of Robert Conquest 8O .

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Post by David Thompson » 05 Dec 2004 19:09

295th -- You said:
On the starvation issue, whatever Hitler planned the situation from the beginning was awful for the civilian population because Stalin had ordered a "scorched earth" retreat and the food supply destroyed. Where there is no food, you'll have famine, Hitler plans or not, and any army in that situation would channel the limited supply to its own at the peril of the local enemy population. There are debates over whether the plan to leave the local people with an average ration of 2,000 kcal per day amounted to planned starvation or not--postwar rations in the US Zone were 1500 kcal in 1946, and no one is accusing the Americans of deliberate starvation.

Are you trying to suggest that the Nazis didn't plan a famine in the area of the Soviet Union they occupied?

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