Should Russia seek apology for soviet war-crimes in germany

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Reigo
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Post by Reigo » 17 Mar 2005 18:26

Reigo -- Drop the hostile tone and personal remarks.


Sure, sure, but I have not been the only one who has engaged in this personal remarks business. :wink:

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Michael Miller
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Post by Michael Miller » 17 Mar 2005 18:37

Hello, Reigo.

As in war crimes tribunals, the "other people have done it too, so my doing it is justified" argument doesn't work here. :D

Best regards,
~ Mike

Reigo
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Post by Reigo » 17 Mar 2005 18:41

I did not justify my actions (since obviously I am guilty), but hinted that judge's actions could be more unbiased. If I am going down then I surely want to grab someone with me. But it seems that one guy has bribed the judge. :P :)

(Sorry for the off-topic)

donjasjit
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Post by donjasjit » 17 Mar 2005 19:05

Hi friends, some of you are of the opinion that Russia should apoligize for war crimes in Germany. I am of the opinion that though several war crimes were comitted in Germany by Soviet soldiers especially mass rapes, an apology would be quite unpractical considering World history. When all sides in a conflict are involved in war crimes then the only measure the severity of the crimes is the number of people killed. Compare the Soviet losses of nearly 30 million with German losses and you can form an opinion that the atrocities the russians committed is nothing compared to what the nazis did.

Then also some may argue that soviet war crimes are no justification for nazi crimes. Theoratically speaking that is true but in the real world that does not hold true. If your family suffers at the hands of another person you will be a strange person indeed if you did not seek revenge.

I would and in the second world war since the german nazis personified the evil invader the german people had to bear the brunt. It is cruel but that is how it has happened throughout human history.

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Post by Karman » 17 Mar 2005 19:14

Reigo wrote:
Before February 24, 1918 Estonia was independent? Nope. It was a part of Russia.. What govt was in power in Russia? Bolshevik gvt. When the bolshevik gvt lost its power over Estonian territory and why? The bolshevik gvt in Estonia lost its power on that territory because the Brest-Litovsk Peace Treaty was signed on Februaty 18, 1918. According to that Treaty the Russian lands (including the territory of Estonia) were occupied by Germans. in this connection since February 18, 1918 there were no power in Estonia till February 24, 1918. Can I presume that when the Estonian leaders announced the independence of the country on that very day they perfectly understood that the very next day it will be occupied by Germans in accordance with Brest-Litovsk Treaty.


Brest-Litovsk treaty was signed on 3rd March. Before you come to teach Estonians about their history, learn a bit of your own history. :wink:

The Provisional Gvt was formed when the German occupational regime was still in force in Estonia. Am I right?


No. The government was formed on 24th February and continued work in November when the Germans left.


Does it somehow correspond with what is written in your local newspapers?


The arrogance of the ignorant?


Thank you. it is always good to refresh the memory. Yes, in the course of Brest-Litovsk negotiations Trozky simply left the negotiations in reply to German ultimatum to give the Russian territories including Estonia to Germany. Germans started the offensive. The February 18, 1918 bolsheviks agreed with the Ultimatum and since that time there was no bolshevik power in Estonia but German offensive was not stopped. So when the group of Estonians proclaimed the independence did they mean to stop the German occupation with the holy word? Or did they know that Estonia would be occupied by Germans? Did the Estonian armed forces fought against Germand or did they support the occupation?

So you mean the gvt was totally formed on February 24, 1918 or that its presence was just announced? You mean that the same pesonalities (without any additions and alterations) survived till November 1918? So what did they do all that time? I mean the gvt? So the gvt was appointed in February 24, 1918 and then it ..... what? migrated? fought against the occupation? called the people not to follow the orders of Germany? Till the very November 1918? And then. Who did all the dirty work for the gvt of Piats? Who suppressed the revolt in Revel in November 1918? And who revolted in Revel? Estonians or Russians? And who did suppress them? Russians? Germans?

Interesting that (you are always welcomed to correct me) that the power in Estonia was passed to the Gvt of Piats in November 11, 1918. But the German occupation lasted till November 28, 1918. So it started to operate under ther occupation am I correct?

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Post by David Thompson » 17 Mar 2005 19:42

Riego -- You said:
I did not justify my actions (since obviously I am guilty), but hinted that judge's actions could be more unbiased. If I am going down then I surely want to grab someone with me. But it seems that one guy has bribed the judge.

(Sorry for the off-topic)

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Beppo Schmidt
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Post by Beppo Schmidt » 17 Mar 2005 20:24

since the german nazis personified the evil invader the german people had to bear the brunt


That's "justice" straight out of the Middle Ages.

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Kunikov
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Post by Kunikov » 17 Mar 2005 20:52

Beppo Schmidt wrote:
since the german nazis personified the evil invader the german people had to bear the brunt


That's "justice" straight out of the Middle Ages.


"justice" is a fancy word for 'revenge.'

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Beppo Schmidt
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Post by Beppo Schmidt » 17 Mar 2005 22:54

Revenge is against the people who actually did something wrong to you. I'm sure those soldiers suffered mightily at the hands of those 8-year-old girls.

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Kunikov
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Post by Kunikov » 18 Mar 2005 01:31

Beppo Schmidt wrote:Revenge is against the people who actually did something wrong to you. I'm sure those soldiers suffered mightily at the hands of those 8-year-old girls.


Who is to say those 'people' are still alive and viable to answer for what they did? It was Germany, the country, that started the war, thus it was Germany that suffered for it.

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Beppo Schmidt
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Post by Beppo Schmidt » 18 Mar 2005 01:36

There is no justification for raping women and girls, no matter how much you try to find one.

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Kunikov
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Post by Kunikov » 18 Mar 2005 01:37

Beppo Schmidt wrote:There is no justification for raping women and girls, no matter how much you try to find one.


I'm not justifying anything, I'm in fact trying to UNDERSTAND, something you apparently don't care about.

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Post by David Thompson » 18 Mar 2005 01:42

Beppo and Kunikov -- Drop the personal remarks.

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Post by Panzermahn » 18 Mar 2005 08:50

Panzermahn wrote:


No official political officers position in Red Army does not mean it does not exist. And for your info, Uncle Iosif reintroduced the dual command back to the Red Army in 1944.



Source is?


Of course the Red Army does not need any German interference in solving domestic Russikaya problems, i'm implying that the Red Army could be appreciative to the Germans to help them liquidate the commissars because every rank-and-file soldiers in the Red Army hated and despised the political commissars..



Source for every 'rank-and-file' soldier in the Red Army hating Commissars is?


By the way, you should watch Enemy of the Gates..it gives you an idea how political commissars deal with Red Army soldiers



Ah, your source is a movie, one wonders why you post here at all.


My sources are the two books by ANtony Beevor, namely the brilliantly written STalingrad and Berlin: The Downfall

In Berlin the Downfall: It was stated by the author that most of the Red Army soldiers or what you called "frontoviki" hated the political commissars..

Zhukov also hated Konev because Konev entered the Red Army as a political commissar and not a regular private like Zhukov...

Reigo
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Post by Reigo » 18 Mar 2005 09:55

So when the group of Estonians proclaimed the independence did they mean to stop the German occupation with the holy word? Or did they know that Estonia would be occupied by Germans? Did the Estonian armed forces fought against Germand or did they support the occupation?


When they proclaimed independence they also meant independence not some German puppet state. Simple. It was considered that the power vacuum (no Bolsheviks and no Germans) is the best time to do it. That the German occupation would come was clear. The armed forces did not fight against the Germans since it was clear for everybody that it's futile.

So you mean the gvt was totally formed on February 24, 1918 or that its presence was just announced?


Yes it was formed, the ministers were appointed.

You mean that the same pesonalities (without any additions and alterations) survived till November 1918? So what did they do all that time? I mean the gvt? So the gvt was appointed in February 24, 1918 and then it ..... what? migrated? fought against the occupation? called the people not to follow the orders of Germany? Till the very November 1918?


The government was not recognized by the Germans. The head of the government (Päts) was put into prison camp. In reality the government did not work during the occupation. Vast majority of the Estonian nationalist politicians did not cooperate with the Germans. There were negotiations but German plans were not acceptable. In November 1918 after the German revolution the Estonian politicians made proposal to the Germans that the government would start work again. The Germans agreed, since for them it seemed the least bad option amongst the all available bad options. The November government had some alterations but the government is de jure considered the same one which was formed on 24th February.

And then. Who did all the dirty work for the gvt of Piats? Who suppressed the revolt in Revel in November 1918? And who revolted in Revel? Estonians or Russians? And who did suppress them? Russians? Germans?


The Germans did this dirty work for themselves not for government Päts. In Tallinn (this is how the Estonian capital is called) revolted Bolsheviks but this was a small attempt. There was also food mutiny (protests against the lack of food) in Tallinn and the German command was nervous. Estonian politicians said that if the Provisional government is allowed in power again then the situation may become more peaceful. The German command agreed.

Interesting that (you are always welcomed to correct me) that the power in Estonia was passed to the Gvt of Piats in November 11, 1918. But the German occupation lasted till November 28, 1918. So it started to operate under ther occupation am I correct?


As always, you need correction. The power in Estonia was officially passed to the government on 19th November with the treaty of Riga. The government started in November indeed to act under the occupation but it was not organized by Germans. But actually the government started to act on 24th February.

For me it is interesting that a person, who hasn't got actually much clue about what he is talking, can be so ... self-confident.
Last edited by Reigo on 18 Mar 2005 16:12, edited 1 time in total.

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