Allied and German casualties in Normandy

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peregrin
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Casuality contradiction

#31

Post by peregrin » 01 May 2005, 00:37

Mark V. wrote:Another number (Klapdor):
Heeresgruppe B reported on 14th August a total loss of 158,930 men in the period 6th June - 14th August:
3630 officers (including 14 generals),
151,487 NCOs and men,
3813 Russians,
plus a loss of another 45,000-50,000 men in Falaise pocket.
This would give a total number of around 210,000.

According to the OKH/Heeresarzt (Tieke):
23,019 dead,
198,616 MIA,
67,240 wounded
=288,875
There seems to be a contradiction in the number of dead reported in the above numbers and the numbers that are buried in the 5 German cemetaries in Normandy. The number of dead in the cemeteries are as follows:

Mont d' Huisnes Cemetary - 11,956
Marigny Cemetary - 11,169
Orglandes Cemetary - 10,152
le Cambe - 21,200
St. Desir de Lisieux - 3,735
variouss British Cementaries - 2,300

Total =60,485

Also there is the German Cemetary at Saint Andre (Eure,Depart.), haven't got a map handy so not sure exactly where this one is and it's relationship to Normandy.

Anyway as you can see there are 60, 485 Germans dead in these 5 cemetaries, which is 2.6 times more then the OKH figure. Also if you assume that for every one soldier killed, approximately 2.5 are wounded ( for the germans only , based on the numbers of killed and wounded for June, July and August, in Zetterling book) you would get (60,485 x 2.5) = 151,212 wounded and giving a total killed and wounded count of 211,697. Oddly enough the number of MIA is close to the 200,000+ the Allies claimed to have captured, which means that the MIA number is probably on the low side as this number would include bodies not recovered. This gives us a total casualty count of about 411,697. I realize that the wounded assumptions i've made are on shaky ground , but they were't chosen at random either.

So where did all the extra bodies come from ??? Navy and Luftwaffe and rear services casualities wouldn't account for this descrapency, the differenc between OKH and cemetaries is 37,466. Any suggestions.

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Qvist
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#32

Post by Qvist » 01 May 2005, 10:27

Delete DP
Last edited by Qvist on 01 May 2005, 10:42, edited 1 time in total.


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Qvist
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#33

Post by Qvist » 01 May 2005, 10:41

Hi Peregrin
Mont d' Huisnes Cemetary - 11,956
Marigny Cemetary - 11,169
Orglandes Cemetary - 10,152
le Cambe - 21,200
St. Desir de Lisieux - 3,735
variouss British Cementaries - 2,300

Total =60,485
Here there is an important distinction between dead and reported KIA figures. Quite simply, it must be assumed that many German soldiers who were in fact dead were reported as MIA, especially when major commands suffered major breakdowns, as AOK7 did in Normandy. The same state of affairs pertain to f.e. the Bagration losses, that are also characterised by KIA figures that are clearly much too low, coupled with very high MIA figures.
Oddly enough the number of MIA is close to the 200,000+ the Allies claimed to have captured, which means that the MIA number is probably on the low side as this number would include bodies not recovered.


Such discrepancies are far from unusual, and usually reflect that POW counts embrace a far wider category of personnel than casualty statistics.
So where did all the extra bodies come from ??? Navy and Luftwaffe and rear services casualities wouldn't account for this descrapency, the differenc between OKH and cemetaries is 37,466. Any suggestions.
Well, again, the obvious and chief answer IMO is that the German MIA figures are likely to contain many dead.
Also if you assume that for every one soldier killed, approximately 2.5 are wounded ( for the germans only , based on the numbers of killed and wounded for June, July and August, in Zetterling book) you would get (60,485 x 2.5) = 151,212 wounded and giving a total killed and wounded count of 211,697.
I would say that this runs into several problems. Firstly, that it leaves one with a very large number of wounded mysteriously unaccounted for in any sources. Secondly, even to the extent such extrapolation is valid, the dead figure you start from must be assumed to include also personnel not accounted for in OKH loss statistics. Thirdly, in Normandy many German wounded must also have been captured. Fourthly, it is possible, even likely, that the cemeteries contain many soldiers killed after 14 August.
This gives us a total casualty count of about 411,697. I realize that the wounded assumptions i've made are on shaky ground , but they were't chosen at random either.
Well, I think that on the whole one would need very clear and specific reasons to deviate substantially from the TOTAL of the German casualties as reported, as opposed to their internal breakdown.

cheers

Michate
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#34

Post by Michate » 01 May 2005, 13:06

According to later casualty compilations by the Wehrmachtverlustwesen office, casualties of the army (including Waffen-SS) in the West from June to September 1944 were 54,754 dead and 338,933 missing (Müller-Hillebrand, Heer, Vol. 3, p. 171).

The number of dead would include later corrections as well as probably soldiers dying from wounds and non-combat reasons, which are not included in the Heeresarzt figures.

It would also include casualties suffered by German units in Southern and South-Western France, which must have been quite high in August/September.

Best regards,
Michate

RichTO90
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#35

Post by RichTO90 » 02 May 2005, 15:21

Michate wrote:According to later casualty compilations by the Wehrmachtverlustwesen office, casualties of the army (including Waffen-SS) in the West from June to September 1944 were 54,754 dead and 338,933 missing (Müller-Hillebrand, Heer, Vol. 3, p. 171).
Gee, how is it that I've yet to throw my two cents worth into this discussion? From an old email of mine to Niklas Z:

The question of the total German casualties in Normandy has continued to perplex me, since I cannot reconcile the total number of German PW reported by the Allies with the total number of German MIA as reported by the Heeresarzt summary of 10 January 1945 as found in T78, R414, F6383234~. Nor can I reconcile the differences between that report and the earlier report from November 1944 in the OKW/WFSt/Op(H)/Org.Abt. file (T77, R826, F3126~) I alluded to in my earlier e-mail. However, I feel I have arrived at a possible answer to the question of why these various reports differ so much. The reasoning may be a bit torturous, but I hope you will be able to follow and comment on it.

There are two possible conclusions that may be made. One is that the 10 January report is simply a correction of the earlier report and that the reduction in the total casualties was simply due to personnel assumed lost that were accounted for as returned to duty (and of course as KIA or MIA, since the January counts of those categories are higher than the November counts). However, the second conclusion that may be drawn is that both the January 45 and November 44 counts are correct, but that they report different things. My reasoning is based upon attempting to show that this second assumption is in fact correct.

I believe that it is possible that the November 44 report partly included total Wehrmacht losses for the period, rather than just Heer losses. Furthermore, I believe that the January 45 report both corrected the ‘bloody’ losses (KIA and WIA) and excluded those losses of non-ground forces personnel (Kriegesmarine, Luftwaffe troops not dedicated to ground combat, Organization Todt, and RAD personnel) who were almost certainly included in the Allied PW counts.

First, note that the major discrepancy between the two reports is found in the difference between the MIA and nicht aufgeschluesselte (referred to as NA below) totals in the November report and the MIA totals in the January report. The differences in bloody losses are minor between the two reports. For the period from 6 June through 31 October 44 the differences are as follows:

Nov Report Jan Report Difference
KIA 34165 39675 +5510
WIA 110001 125761 +15760
MIA 184357 318306 +133949
NA 215981 - -215981
Total 544504 483742 -60762

So it could be assumed that the January accounting found 60762 returned to duty, and additional casualties of 133949 MIA, 15760 WIA and 5510 KIA for the period.

Looking at a more narrow period, that of the Normandy Battle from 6 June through 31 August 44, we find the following differences:

Nov Report Jan Report Difference
KIA 19554 23019 +3465
WIA 61008 67060 +6052
MIA 66326 198616 +132290
NA 187349 - -187349
Total 334237 288695 -45542

So it could be assumed that the January accounting found 45542 returned to duty, and additional casualties of 132290 MIA, 6052 WIA and 3465 KIA.

The Allies counted a total of 235367 German PW captured in Normandy and Northern France in the period from 6 June through 31 August 44. That is 36751 higher than the maximum number that could be accounted for by the German MIA. Now, from the report of the garrison strengths found in T78, R411 we have the following:
Noted as accounted for in the August casualties.
OKW Total Heer Only Difference
Brest 37058 11525 17982
St.Malo 8488 6168 2320
Toulon 18000 9676 8324
Marseille 13000 6400 5100
Total 76546 33769 33726

Now of course the Allied PW counts would not have included those of Toulon or Marseille. Extracting those figures we have:

OKW Total Heer Only Difference
Brest 37058 11525 17982
St.Malo 8488 6168 2320
Total 45546 17693 20302

It is also noted in the November report that the losses for June include those of Cherbourg. Unfortunately, the report of garrison strengths did not of course include those of Cherbourg, since they were already lost. However, perhaps we can come up with a possible estimate of the numbers in that garrison and the distribution between OKW totals and Heer.

The units lost in Cherbourg included:
Max Strength Est Min Strength
Stellungs Werfer Regiment 101 1800 900?
MG Bn 17 632 632?
Cherbourg Festungs Stammtruppen 1355 1355
Sturm Batallion AOK 7 1106 500?
Panzer Batallion 206 385 385?
elms ID 77 70? 70?
elms ID 243 8189 2000
ID 709 8320 8320
Totals 21857 14162

These units had a maximum nominal strength when they were isolated on 17 June (assuming zero losses) of 21857 and a minimum strength of about 14162. An average of the two would be 18009. However, in the period 17 June through 3 July the US VII Corps reported capturing a total of 34,295 Germans during the operations directed against Cherbourg. Thus, it may be assumed that a maximum of 20133 and a minimum of 12438 or an average of about 16286 of these prisoners were non-Heer. Note that these closely match the Heer estimates of about 15000 lost in Cherbourg that appear in other documents.

For Cherbourg, St. Malo and Brest we may account for possibly 36588 non-Heer personnel as potential prisoners. However, this may be reduced by the number of personnel potentially in FJD 2 in Brest, 7551 men, reducing the non-Heer total to 29037. Again, the discrepancy between the Allied PW total and the January report MIA total for the period June-August is 36751 and the difference between the November and January report for the period is 45542.

Note also that in the September casualties the losses of the Channel ports are included and account for 32971 Wehrmacht personnel of which 20253 were Heer, a difference of 12718. Added to the June-August difference of 36751 we have a total of 49469, compared to the total difference between the November and January reports of 60762.

Now it is obvious that the November casualty report and the report on the strength of the garrisons are related. Both note that the Cherbourg losses are included in the June casualties, St. Malo, Brest, Marseille and Toulon in the August casualties, and that Calais, Boulogne and Le Havre are included in the September casualties. It is less obvious that the January casualty report is also similar to the November report, but only because the totals are so different. However, I strongly suspect that those totals are simply accounted for by the non-Heer and non-Luftwaffe ground troops be subtracted from the totals in the January report. Of course, contradicting this view is the note that the November report did not include die von in Erdkampf Teilen der Luftwaffe. Also it is possible that the additional 60762 men had been returned to duty or otherwise accounted for in units by the end of October. That would possibly account in part for the notoriously negative divisional strength reports from the 16 October OKH Org.Abt. report in T78, R432, F6403685~ that you remark on in your book a number of times.

Overall, I must say that I am torn between the two possible points of view regarding these reports. However, I tend to believe that it is very possible that the November casualty report is substantially correct and that the only major difference between it and the January report is that the casualties of the non-Heer, non-Luftwaffe Feld and Fallschirm troops were simply subtracted from the totals. Likely that was done to clarify the numbers of trained ground combat personnel potentially available.


I just hope all of the tables are understandable.

BTW, I know this write up is pretty much of a mess - I still haven't worked up the courage to attack the subject as it deserves. At least one problem with the MIA versus POW figure is that we know that the Allies counted everyone as a PW - Wehrmachterfolge, HiWi, RAD, OT, and Freiwilliger, as well as actual military personnel. But at least the unit PW reports of the Allies often give which unit PWs were from, which can often be interesting. So, for example we know that 1. SS-Pz.Div. reported 1,385 MIA through 31 August, of which 421 are known to have been incurred in July. There were also likely few incurred in June, so about 964 were incurred in August. So far I have found the following Allied reports for captures from that division - all for in August:

US 90th ID - 332
US XIX Corps - 8
Cdn II Corps - 169
Total - 509

Now if we can fill in the rest of the Allied unit identifications of PW, I suspect that given what resulted in previous work we may be able to account for as many as 90 percent of the German MIA losses as PW. But a lot of work remains to be done. :roll:

peregrin
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#36

Post by peregrin » 02 May 2005, 19:59

Great addition RichT . more valuable info

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