German "kindred blood" ?

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philipp0408
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Post by philipp0408 » 07 Aug 2005 15:44

Pieter Kuiper wrote:I find it a bit difficult to find good references (sorry), but couples where one part was Polish and the other German could be convicted of Rassenschande (miscegenation).
Prove? According to Nuremberg race laws not.

Wlassow had a german wife. Goebbels had a affair with Lida Barova. She was a big movie star in Nazi Germany, she was from Tschechia. U-Boatace Erich Topp (or Engelbert Endrass) had a russian girlfreind, when he was stationed in France.
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Post by philipp0408 » 07 Aug 2005 15:48

TRose wrote:Where the Wends that lived in Germany then considered Germans Aryan even though they spoke a slavic languege? I always wonder about how the Nazi dealt with the fact that a slavic minority lived almost in the heart of Germany and more then a few Prussian officers had slavic names or the fact that the ancient Pomerians where slavs and Prussians had a lot of Baltic blood in them
About Wends I dont know. But it was not a problem, that a lot officers in all branches and enlisteed man had slavic sounding names. They were normal Germans since hundred years and so a normal part of the society. As I quoted, the slavic "problem" is often proved wrong by hundred of daily examplkes. Also It was more focues on the russian -asiatic and bolshewik- hordes.
Would the slavic names be a problem, they had to wipe out some millions of people in Germany. Ridiculous, since they were normal Europeans and so german kindred blooded. And since some generations normal Germans.

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Post by David Thompson » 07 Aug 2005 15:54

TRose -- You wrote:
Where the Wends that lived in Germany then considered Germans Aryan even though they spoke a slavic languege? I always wonder about how the Nazi dealt with the fact that a slavic minority lived almost in the heart of Germany and more then a few Prussian officers had slavic names or the fact that the ancient Pomerians where slavs and Prussians had a lot of Baltic blood in them
philipp0408 added:
About Wends I dont know. But it was not a problem, that a lot officers in all branches and enlisteed man had slavic sounding names. They were normal Germans since hundred years and so a normal part of the society.
Himmler's proposal in 1940 for part of the German Wends was to deport them to the Generalgouvernement and treat them as Poles:
The population of the Government General during the next 10 years, by necessity and after a consistent carrying out of these measures, will be composed of the remaining inferior population supplemented by the population of the eastern provinces deported there, and of all those parts of the German Reich which have the same racial and human qualities for instance, parts of the Sorbs [Sorben] and Wends [Wenden].

This population will, as a people of laborers without leaders, be at our disposal and will furnish Germany annually with migrant workers and with workers for special tasks (roads, quarries, buildings): they themselves will have more to eat and more to live on than under the Polish regime; and, though they have no culture of their own, they will, under the strict, consistent, and just leadership of the German people, be called upon to help work on its everlasting cultural tasks and its buildings and perhaps, as far as the amount of heavy work is concerned, will be the ones who make the realization of these tasks possible.
"Reflections on the Treatment of Peoples of Alien Races in the East", a secret memorandum handed to Hitler by Himmler on 25 May 1940", in Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals Under Control Council Law No. 10. Vol. 13: United States of America v. Ernst von Weizsaecker, et al. (Case 11: 'Ministries Case'). US Government Printing Office, District of Columbia: 1952. pp. 147-150.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 104#570104

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Post by Pieter Kuiper » 07 Aug 2005 17:06

philipp0408 wrote:
Pieter Kuiper wrote:I find it a bit difficult to find good references (sorry), but couples where one part was Polish and the other German could be convicted of Rassenschande (miscegenation).
Prove? According to Nuremberg race laws not.

Wlassow had a german wife. Goebbels had a affair with Lida Barova. She was a big movie star in Nazi Germany, she was from Tschechia. U-Boatace Erich Topp (or Engelbert Endrass) had a russian girlfreind, when he was stationed in France.
DIE »POLENERLASSE« ließen den örtlichen Behörden und Parteistellen große Ermessensspielräume; die »Abstrafung« polnischer Zwangsarbeiter erfolgte direkt durch die Staatspolizei ohne Einschaltung der Justiz. Kernpunkt war das Verbot jedweder intimer Kontakte zu Deutschen. Den Polen drohte dafür die Todesstrafe, beschuldigten deutschen Frauen wurden öffentlich die Haare abgeschoren. Häufig genügte schon der bloße Verdacht für die direkte Einweisung in ein Konzentrationslager.
Diese Erlasse wurden die Grundlage für ein nach Herkunft und »rassischem Wert« differenziertes Repressionssystem gegen die ausländischen Zwangsarbeiter gemäß der nationalsozialistischen Rassenideologie.
source

So local authorities had room for a great deal of discretion, but in principle Poles could get the death penalty for this. I remember the story of an Austrian woman who was sent to Auschwitz because she was pregnant with a Polish forced labourer.

Klaus Saul writes on page 20 of Gesichter der Zwangsarbeit that after 1942 pregnant Polish women were not sent home anymore, but forced to have abortions. If children were born, they were classified as schlechtrassig, and suffered in homes for foreign children. Saul gives a number of sources for this (Raimond Reiter, Gisela Schwarz, others).
Last edited by Pieter Kuiper on 08 Aug 2005 07:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Molobo » 07 Aug 2005 17:48

Pieter Kuiper wrote:
I find it a bit difficult to find good references (sorry), but couples where one part was Polish and the other German could be convicted of Rassenschande (miscegenation).
Prove? According to Nuremberg race laws not.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=82975
http://ww2.tvp.pl/tvppl/11,2004051897200.strona
http://www.wdr.de/tv/diestory/020930.phtml

A polish documentary about a story of lynch made by German people against a German(19) and Polish girl(16) who fell in love.
Both were humilitated in public, and harassed by Hitlerjugend and townspeople, their hair was burned down, and tables with names "I am polish pig" put on Polish women.They were forced to march thru town while people spitted and insulted them.
The lynch took place in German town of Steindorf
http://www.dac.neu.edu/holocaust/Hitlers_Plans.htm
The Sub-human (RuSHA, 1942)
The category of sub-human (Untermensch) included Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, Serbs, etc.) Gypsies and Jews. TOP
"To avoid mistakes which might subsequently occur in the selection of subjects suitable for 'Germanization,' the RuSHA [The Race and Settlement Head Office] in 1942 distributed a pamphlet, The Sub-Human, to those responsible for that selection. 3,860,995 copies were printed in German alone and it was translated into Greek, French, Dutch, Danish, Bulgarian, Hungarian and Czech and seven other languages. It stated:
The sub-human, that biologically seemingly complete similar creation of nature with hands, feet and a kind of brain, with eyes and a mouth, is nevertheless a completely different, dreadful creature. He is only a rough copy of a human being, with human-like facial traits but nonetheless morally and mentally lower than any animal. Within this creature there is a fearful chaos of wild, uninhibited passions, nameless destructiveness, the most primitive desires, the nakedest vulgarity. Sub-human, otherwise nothing. For all that bear a human face are not equal. Woe to him who forgets it." 1

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Post by David Thompson » 07 Aug 2005 18:35

Readers interested in documentary information on German policies for Poles, Russians, Czechs and Slovenians, and the fantasy that they were to be treated as "kindred blood," may find these threads helpful:

Himmler's Address to Officers of the SS-Leibstandarte "Adolf Hitler" on the "Day of Metz" (Presentation of the Historical Nazi Flag)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 817#587817
Slovenian inhabitants according to plan
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=35874
Source Documents on "Germanization"
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61091
Germanization Plan for Bohemia and Moravia
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61467
Nazi occupation of Poland -- the Warthegau Nov 1939
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=54478
Documents on the Nazi occupation of Poland 1939-1944
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=54862
Hitler and Murders in Poland 1939-1940
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=24138
The German Resettlement Trustee Company (DUT)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=66094
Nazi occupation policies for the USSR
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61454
Last edited by David Thompson on 08 Aug 2005 22:38, edited 1 time in total.

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philipp0408
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Post by philipp0408 » 07 Aug 2005 19:20

thx, interesting material

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Post by Babar » 08 Aug 2005 07:37

I had read a book called "hitler's willing executioners" though I wouldn't recommend it, I remember it had stated that the gestapo were arresting thousands upon thousands of germans and "aliens" (mostly polish serfs) for having illegal relationships every single month, the author had said that in 1944? I think, the party changed it's official stance on German-Easterners German-French et al co-mingling , since as it was stated it wasn't "the will of the people", Im not sure how accurate it was though.

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Post by philipp0408 » 08 Aug 2005 08:35

Babar wrote:I had read a book called "hitler's willing executioners" though I wouldn't recommend it, I remember it had stated that the gestapo were arresting thousands upon thousands of germans and "aliens" (mostly polish serfs) for having illegal relationships every single month, the author had said that in 1944? I think, the party changed it's official stance on German-Easterners German-French et al co-mingling , since as it was stated it wasn't "the will of the people", Im not sure how accurate it was though.
Goldhagens book was highly disscussed in germany. First it was praised, then it was very critisised, because it offers a lot of mistakes, wrong quotes an wrong sources. But i never read thebook, just some critics.

Also there were so much pre war mixing relationships, the Gestapo would have been totally overworked. And these relationships were normally accepted.

Ive been very carefully since some time, with what the media shows us germans about the years 33-45. Still we cannot handle our own history and there are so much fake informations and myths going around, which are spread by the media, although dily life in 33-45 proved wrong. For example a half year ago or so there was a big tv report about the "Death eleven". There was stated that the Wehrmacht played a friendly game with some Ukrainian workers and after the match they killed all, because the Ukrainians won the game, although they had the order to loose. The TV showed a lot of wittnesses and archive matereial, which proved them right. An all the time this incident was discussed in the german media.

Now a reporter has reaserched in Ukrain and in archives and has found out, that all was fake. He went to a german high court and became right. There never were killed Ukrainians, becaue of this match. It was invented and faked. But now no one reports about this. Only when its good for their angle of vie w, they discuss about it. When some one proves the mwrong, they all have to be silent. There are still to much fake and exagerated things, which go around german media, who deals careless with the topics. A good example is the very famous Guido Knopp in Germany. He produeces a lot of reports about the time between 33-45, but this seems to be a masswork for him. Every week a new book of him. So he is very careless and offeres a lot of wrong sources, changes quotes or gives only the half of quote or informations, so that they fit into his angle of view. But at the end its nothing than wrong information. He was proved very often as a bad hisotrian but the mass believes him. So because oif this all, Iam very carefull with what us is presented. To much sensational media and to often proved wrong.

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Post by David Thompson » 08 Aug 2005 14:56

Ive been very carefully since some time, with what the media shows us germans about the years 33-45. Still we cannot handle our own history and there are so much fake informations and myths going around, which are spread by the media, although dily life in 33-45 proved wrong. For example a half year ago or so there was a big tv report about the "Death eleven". There was stated that the Wehrmacht played a friendly game with some Ukrainian workers and after the match they killed all, because the Ukrainians won the game, although they had the order to loose. The TV showed a lot of wittnesses and archive matereial, which proved them right. An all the time this incident was discussed in the german media.

Now a reporter has reaserched in Ukrain and in archives and has found out, that all was fake. He went to a german high court and became right. There never were killed Ukrainians, becaue of this match. It was invented and faked. But now no one reports about this. Only when its good for their angle of vie w, they discuss about it. When some one proves the mwrong, they all have to be silent.
Truth about alleged Germans vs Ukrainians soccer matches 194
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=73585
Dynamo 1942
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=36359
Dynamo versus Germany: Soccer Match of Death
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=55651
Football match Kiev FC Start vs. Luftwaffe in 1942
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=31958 (last post 23 Sept 2003)

Let's stay on topic -- The issue of who qualified as "kindred blood" and the supporting proof.

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Olga Himmler

Post by Pieter Kuiper » 08 Aug 2005 16:54

I read that Olga Himmler (sister of RFSS) was confined in Ravensbrück because of Rassenschande with a Polish officer (source).

Edit: "Dictionary of the Holocaust - Biography, Geography & Terminology" (1997) says under the entry Ravensbrueck:
Himmler’s sister, Olga, was imprisoned at this site for having sex with a Pole [Rassenschande].
Edit: I now see that Himmler had two brothers, Gebhard and Ernst. No sister is mentioned.

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Post by philipp0408 » 08 Aug 2005 20:58

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=83183

Ive just read the thread about Himmler sister. See, thats eactly what Ive mentioned in my thread above, that about this theme there is so much missinformation and myths around, especially here in germany.

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Post by Pieter Kuiper » 08 Aug 2005 21:38

Here is a letter by Minister of Justice Freisler from 1942. It is about the application of the Polenstrafrechtsverordnung in cases were Germans are involved.
Figure I of the Decree concerning Criminal Law as applied to Poles makes provision for the punishment of certain offences committed by Poles and Jews which do not constitute criminal acts according to the ordinary German criminal code when committed by Germans.

Thus, for instance, according to Figure I, Paragraph 3, if a Pole has sexual relations with a German girl, he renders himself liable to punishment because he thereby damages the welfare and the reputation of the German people.

[cut legalese]

It is even less possible to administer a punishment in those cases in which the German neither instigates nor aids in the commission of the criminal act, but rather participates in its commission only in such a way as for instance the German woman surrenders to the Poles for purposes of sexual relations (necessary participation). In all those cases, the conduct of the German is punishable. It undermines the German efforts in connection with the purity of race and seriously damages the honor of Germanism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_ ... _in_Poland:
During the war hundreds of Polish men were executed for their relations with German women.

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Post by Babar » 09 Aug 2005 06:30

Goldhagens book was highly disscussed in germany. First it was praised,
That's suprising, I wouldn't have thought that, I actually thought germans would find some parts offensive, in my point of view there were parts that could be construed as offensive by ordinary germans today.

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Post by philipp0408 » 09 Aug 2005 09:56

Babar wrote:
Goldhagens book was highly disscussed in germany. First it was praised,
That's suprising, I wouldn't have thought that, I actually thought germans would find some parts offensive, in my point of view there were parts that could be construed as offensive by ordinary germans today.
Hello Barbar,

I can understand your point, but maybe you cannot know, because you dont live in germany. It has to do with our history. Books about jewish issues are a very risky thing here in germany, something like a sakrileg. The media praises all books after their publication as masterpieces, that never existed before etc. You would hardly find one, where they disribe this as wrong and bad literature etc. All this is, because you can be very easily named a antisemit, with your opinion, so people and reporters are very carefull, with what they say. Thats not porpaganda, thats a fact. This is german society.

a nice examples is this books. Highly praised als masterpieces, than exposed as pure fakes. But no one writes about this.

Try in google "Wilkomirski" and "holocaust" then you will find a lot of informations, I think you will be stunned.


Holocaust Survivor Memoir
Exposed As Total Fraud
By Mark Weber
IHR.org
3-3-5


A Holocaust survivor memoir that has received prestigious literary awards and lavish praise has been exposed as a hoax.

In Fragments: Memories of a Wartime Childhood, Binjamin Wilkomirski describes his ordeal as an infant in the Jewish ghetto of Riga (Latvia), where his earliest memory is of seeing his father being killed. Wilkomirski also tells how he survived the terrible rigors of wartime internment, at the age of three or four, in the German-run concentration camps of Majdanek and Auschwitz.

First published in German in 1995, Fragments has been translated into twelve languages. In Switzerland, the country where Wilkomirski lives, the book has been a major best-seller. Two documentary films and numerous personal appearances by the author in schools throughout the country have helped promote the memoir.

The American edition was published by Schocken, an imprint of Random House, which heavily promoted the book with teachers' study guides and other supplementary materials.

Jewish groups and major American newspapers have warmly praised Fragments. The New York Times called it "stunning," and the Los Angeles Times lauded it as a "classic first-hand account of the Holocaust." It received the 1996 National Jewish Book Award for Autobiography and Memoir, while in Britain it was awarded the Jewish Quarterly Literary Prize, and in France the Prix Memoire de la Shoah.

The US Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, DC -- a federal government agency -- was so impressed that it sent Wilkomirski on a six-city United States fund-raising tour last fall.

This past summer, though, compelling evidence came to light exposing Wilkomirski's memoir as an literary hoax.

Although he claims to have been born in Latvia in 1939, and to have arrived in Switzerland in 1947 or 1948, Swiss legal records show that he was actually born in Switzerland in February 1941, the son of an unwed woman, Yvette Grosjean. The infant was then adopted and raised by the Doessekkers, a middle-class Zurich couple. Jewish author Daniel Ganzfried, writing in the Swiss weekly Weltwoche, also reports that he has found a 1946 photo of the young Bruno Doessekker (Wilkomirski) in the garden of his adoptive parents.

Comparisons have been drawn between Wilkomirski's Fragments and The Painted Bird, the supposedly autobiographical "Holocaust memoir" by prominent literary figure Jerzy Kosinksi that turned out to be fraudulent.

Reaction by Jewish Holocaust scholars to the new revelations has been instructive, because they seem more concerned about propagandistic impact than about historical truth. Their primary regret seems merely to be that the fraud has been detected, not that it was perpetrated.

In an essay published in a major Canadian newspaper (Ottawa Citizen, Nov. 18, 1998), Jewish writer Judith Shulevitz arrogantly argued that it doesn't really matter much if Fragments is authentic. Her main misgiving, apparently, is that the deceit was not more adroit: "I can't help wishing Wilkomirksi-Doesseker [sic] had been more subtle in his efforts at deception, and produced the magnificent fraud world literature deserves."

Deborah Dwork, director of the Center for Holocaust Studies at Clark University (Worcester, Mass.), and co-author of Auschwitz: 1270 to the Present (Yale Univ. Press, 1996), agrees that Fragments now appears to be fraudulent. At the same time, though, she expressed sympathy for Wilkomirski, saying that when she met him he appeared "to be a deeply scarred man." Amazingly, Dwork does not blame him for the imposture, "because she believes in his identity." Instead, she takes the publishers to task for having "exploited" Wilkomirski. (New York Times, Nov. 3, 1998).

Deborah Lipstadt, author of the anti-revisionist polemic Denying the Holocaust, has assigned Fragments in her Emory University class on Holocaust memoirs. When confronted with evidence that it is a fraud, she commented that the new revelations "might complicate matters somewhat, but [the work] is still powerful."

Daniel Ganzfried reports that Jews have complained to him that even if Fragments is a fraud, his exposé is dangerously aiding "those who deny the Holocaust."

American Jewish writer Howard Weiss makes a similar point in an essay published in the Chicago Jewish Star (Oct. 9-29, 1998):

Presenting a fictional account of the Holocaust as factual only provides ammunition to those who already deny that the horrors of Nazism and the death camps ever even happened. If one account is untrue, the deniers' reasoning goes, how can we be sure any survivors accounts are true ... Perhaps no one was ready to question the authenticity of the [Wilkomirski] account because just about anything concerning the Holocaust becomes sacrosanct.

Wilkomirski himself has responded to the new revelations by going into hiding, although he did issue a defiant statement describing the climate of discussion about his memoir as a "poisonous" atmosphere of "totalitarian judgment and criticism."






Here it was the same. First praised because of his nice style and his bad experiences, than found out, that all was fake and he lived safe in Switzerland all the war and had a big house with servants. Then someone here said: Ok, he wasn a corporal survivor of the holocaust, but now he is a mental survivor, So his wirk is still all true." Nothiun more to say about this ......

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