Stalin: "The good guy" or just a murderer?

Discussions on other historical eras.
Karman
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Post by Karman » 23 Sep 2005 07:46

Reigo wrote:
So under this circumstances the information that an Estonian historian had disvoered some hot news about Moscow Patriarch looks like a real crap.


It looks like you fail (as usually) to understand that your writings are irrevelant.

Fact is: such Soviet document has been found. Fact is: agent "Drozdov's" background fits with Aleksius background. Maybe the document is a fake? Well come here and prove it. Until this has not been proved, your arguments are worthless.


I do not have to go anywhere and prove that the document is not authentic. It is wrong from both legal or research perspective. The person who introduced the document in public has to prove that it is authentic befor referring to it or making any claims. Also a person should not prove that it is not guilty. So in reply to certain claims of people who refer to a "document" to accuse the person I should repeat that it is not likely that a document from the KGB personal files was found in fules of the Council of Ministers. And moreover it is not likely that Aleksiy's personal file (if he were an agent) was stored in Estonian KGB.

Reigo
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Post by Reigo » 24 Sep 2005 16:05

I do not have to go anywhere and prove that the document is not authentic. It is wrong from both legal or research perspective. The person who introduced the document in public has to prove that it is authentic befor referring to it or making any claims.


If a historian has published/quoted a document and hasn't said that in his/her opinion the document may be fake, then it is normal that we don't doubt about the authentity of the document unless we have reasons for it. So far you haven't given any reasons (read also below). So if you nevertheless wish that it is a fake because the contrary does not fit with your beliefs, then the only thing you can do is to come yourself (or send somebody) to Estonia (or hire somebody in Estonia) and analyze the document and present the results.

Also a person should not prove that it is not guilty.


Completely irrevelant to the discussion.

So in reply to certain claims of people who refer to a "document" to accuse the person I should repeat that it is not likely that a document from the KGB personal files was found in fules of the Council of Ministers. And moreover it is not likely that Aleksiy's personal file (if he were an agent) was stored in Estonian KGB.


Obviously you haven't read the article provided by Askold because it seemed "like a real crap". If you would have read it then you would know that the title of the document was: "Отчет об агентурно-оперативной деятельности за 1958 год 4-го отдела КГБ при Совете министров ЭССР". So according to the title the document is a report concerning the actions of the "4th Section of the KGB by the Council of the Ministers of the ESSR" in 1958. Sorry, but what "KGB personal files" are you talking about?

Now, was there such a section? I am not an expert on KGB, but it seems so. Is it possible that the documents of this section were in Estonia? It seems so because they have been found.

To add something valuable to the discussion concerning this document you have to provide new facts about this document. So far you have provided only irrevelant writings.

Karman
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Post by Karman » 26 Sep 2005 09:52

First:
Do you mean to go there to check the authenticity of the file below?
http://mparchiv.narod.ru/drozdov.html
Or there is another picture of the document? If it the picture of the real document. believe me there is no need for anybody to go anywhere to check anything.

The quote of the article Askold provided does not work. The Estonian KGB office was officially established at Council of Ministers of Estonian SSR. The "report" of the 4th Department of the KGB as they claim contains the information on the KGB agents from the religious organizations. Ther problem is that the 4th department of the 5th Directorate of the KGB USSR dealt with the religious organizations in SU. But the 4th Department of the Estonian KGB did not. The 4th department of the Estonian KGB dealt with counter-intelligence and was subordinbated to the 2-nd Senior Directorate of the KGB USSR (counter-intelligence) in the 50th. The 4th department of the KGB sent annual reports but not to the Council of Ministers of Estonian SSR but to Moscow KGB office. So I repeat that the claim that any files containing personal information about the KGB agents may be found in the Council of Ministers of Estonia is crap. It is also crap the purelly counterinelligence department characterizes its agents in the report without any reference to precise cases of counterintelligence operations.

Now they say that this document was found in the archives of the 5th Directorate of the Estonian KGB: http://www.omolenko.com/840.html#YANDEX_0

The 5th Directorate of the KGB USSR was some kind of political police and dealt with domestic dissidents and anti-soviet positions. That was also some kind of counter-intelligence. The 4th Department of the 5th Directorate as I said before dealt with religious organizations. The 5th Department of the Estonian KGB sent its reports to the 5th Directorate of the KGB USSR.

Is it clear now or it is not yet?
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Reigo
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Post by Reigo » 27 Sep 2005 18:53

Finally you are talking about the matter! But otherwise you have failed again.

The 5th Directorate of the KGB and the 5th Department of the KGB in Estonia which dealt with church matters were created in 1967. Until then the church matters in Soviet Union were handled by the 4th Directorate and in Estonia they were handled by the 4th Department. The 4th Department sent reports to the 4th Directorate and one copy of it remained in Estonia. This copy was found by Jürjo. The document was not found amongst the papers of the Council of Ministers but amongst of the papers of the historical collection of KGB documents in Estonia.
The 2nd Department dealt always with counter-intelligence in Estonia.

The source is Indrek Jürjo himself whom I contacted by e-mail. For the structure of KGB Jürjo suggested the following book: Лубянка: Органы ВЧК - ОГПУ - НКВД - НКГБ - МГБ - МВД - КГБ, 1917-1991: Справочник / Сост. Кокурин А.И., Петров Н.В. - М.: МФД; Материк, 2003. - 766 с. - (Россия. ХХ век).


Is it clear now or it is not yet?


I am not sure what you mean under "it"?

Karman
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Post by Karman » 28 Sep 2005 10:07

Reigo wrote:Finally you are talking about the matter! But otherwise you have failed again.

The 5th Directorate of the KGB and the 5th Department of the KGB in Estonia which dealt with church matters were created in 1967. Until then the church matters in Soviet Union were handled by the 4th Directorate and in Estonia they were handled by the 4th Department. The 4th Department sent reports to the 4th Directorate and one copy of it remained in Estonia. This copy was found by Jürjo. The document was not found amongst the papers of the Council of Ministers but amongst of the papers of the historical collection of KGB documents in Estonia.
The 2nd Department dealt always with counter-intelligence in Estonia.

The source is Indrek Jürjo himself whom I contacted by e-mail. For the structure of KGB Jürjo suggested the following book: Ëóáÿíêà: Îðãàíû Â×Ê - ÎÃÏÓ - ÍÊÂÄ - ÍÊÃÁ - ÌÃÁ - ÌÂÄ - ÊÃÁ, 1917-1991: Ñïðàâî÷íèê / Ñîñò. Êîêóðèí À.È., Ïåòðîâ Í.Â. - Ì.: ÌÔÄ; Ìàòåðèê, 2003. - 766 ñ. - (Ðîññèÿ. ÕÕ âåê).


Is it clear now or it is not yet?


I am not sure what you mean under "it"?


You would better contact him again and ask when the 5th Directorate of the KGB USSR first appeared and when the 5th Department of the KGB ESSR first appeared (FYI it appeared together with the set up of the KGB itself). Your words about year 1967 are really funny though I cannot say that they are baseless.

The 4th department of the KGB of Estonian SSR sent reports to the head of Estonian KGB and then to the Second Supreme Directorate of the KGB USSR and as your contact Jürjo said in his publication in 1998 it also sent reports to the 4th Directorate of the KGB USSR (not only there but also there). The 4th department dealt with all kinds of guerilla warfare in Estonia, activities of foreign intelligence services and even operations abroad. In 1998 btw in his comments to the publication of the report of the 2nd Department of Estonian KGB Jürjo wroteabout the report of the 4-th Department:

Îòäåëüíàÿ ÷àñòü ïîñâÿùåíà ñëåæêå çà ëþòåðàíñêîé, ïðàâîñëàâíîé è ñâîáîäíîé öåðêâåé.  îòíîøåíèè öåðêâåé îãðàíè÷èëèñü â îñíîâíîì ïðîâåðêîé èõ ðóêîâîäñòâà, äëÿ ÷åãî èñïîëüçîâàëèñü ìíîãî÷èñëåííûå àãåíòû ñðåäè ðóêîâîäñòâà öåðêâåé.
 îò÷åòàõ 4-ãî îòäåëà àãåíòóðíûé àïïàðàò îïèñûâàåòñÿ äîâîëüíî ñæàòî: èçëîæåíû îáùèå ñòàòèñòè÷åñêèå äàííûå. (íàïðèìåð â 1956 ã. ó 4-ãî îòäåëà áûëî 76 ñëó÷àåâ óäà÷íîé âåðáîâêè è âñåãî 812 àãåíòîâ)


Translation: special section dealt with the surveilaance for Lutheran, Orthodox and Free churches. Regarding the chirches they were limited in general with control over the management of the church through a big number of agents in the administasrtion of the chirch. The reports of the 4-th department the agent net was described rather briefly to wit: given general statistic data for example in 1956 the 4th Department had 76 cases of successful hooking and totally 812 agents.
And only about the Head of the Russian Orthodox Church they had plenty of information at least enough to identify the personality. Gimme a break. Besides in the above source Jürjo said that the cannot say anything precise about the structure of the Estonian KGB in the 50th since they did not have enough information.

Reigo
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Post by Reigo » 28 Sep 2005 13:17

(FYI it appeared together with the set up of the KGB itself).


Source?

Your words about year 1967 are really funny though I cannot say that they are baseless.


Try again since I don't understand this nonsense.

The 4th department dealt with all kinds of guerilla warfare in Estonia, activities of foreign intelligence services and even operations abroad.


Source? According to Jürjo the 5th Directorate and 5th Department dealt with church, dissidents, ideological enemies. But until 1967 this was dealt by 4th Directorate and 4th Department.

And only about the Head of the Russian Orthodox Church they had plenty of information at least enough to identify the personality. Gimme a break.


a) how do you know that only about this person there was enough information?
b) You may have a break, but the document exists and the background of the agent fits with Aleksius background.

Besides in the above source Jьrjo said that the cannot say anything precise about the structure of the Estonian KGB in the 50th since they did not have enough information.


It is irrevelant what was written in 1998.

Karman
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Post by Karman » 28 Sep 2005 13:49

Reigo wrote:For the structure of KGB Jürjo suggested the following book: Ëóáÿíêà: Îðãàíû Â×Ê - ÎÃÏÓ - ÍÊÂÄ - ÍÊÃÁ - ÌÃÁ - ÌÂÄ - ÊÃÁ, 1917-1991: Ñïðàâî÷íèê / Ñîñò. Êîêóðèí À.È., Ïåòðîâ Í.Â. - Ì.: ÌÔÄ; Ìàòåðèê, 2003. - 766 ñ. - (Ðîññèÿ. ÕÕ âåê).


Reigo: here you recommended a book. That may be a surprise for you but I read it. So follow your recoomedation and read the book you advised yourself. This also deals with the "nonsense" that you failed to understand about the foundation of the 5th Supreme Directorate of KGB USSR by Andropov in 1967 given that the 5th Directorate of the KGB already existed in 1958.

I see I shall give you some insights. The KGB USSR was founded on February 10, 1954 when it was separated from MVD USSR. The structure of the KGB USSR was formed by march 18, 1954. The KGB USSR had 10 majour Directorates - Upravlenie (three of them were Supreme Directorates - Glavnoe Upravlenie) and some other directorates, departments and services. 1 Supreme Directorate - intelligence, Second SD - counterintelligence, 3-rd SD - military counterintelligence, 4th Directorate - anti-soviet activities and 5th Directoratre - control and counterintelligence on majour projects.

All that worked in Estonia. But subject to the complex political situation in Estonia and following to broad activities of anti-communist warfare and foreign intelligence services the duties of various Departments of Estonian KGB was complex and mixed. According to Jürjo they discovered two reports of the 4th Department of Estonian KGB and a report of the Second Department. The report of the Second Department was published in 1998 ( I referred to it as a source) with the foreword by Jürjo . As for the reports of the 4th Department I do not know were they published or not. The activities of this department dealt with counterintelligence and anti-communist warfare. So they were addressed to the Head of Estonian KGB and then to heads of Second and 4th Directorates of the KGB USSR altogether according to Jürjo That is strange for me that Department with limited staff produced several copies to several bosses and left one indoors (for the grateful readers) . It is lso interesting that the Archive of the Estonian KGB was evacuated to Moscow starting from 1989 but some docs were left and one of them proved that the Head of Russia Orthodox Church was an agent of KGB.

David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 28 Sep 2005 16:29

Riego -- Drop the personal remarks. I've already posted a general warning against the practice in this thread at viewtopic.php?p=766343#766343

Reigo
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Post by Reigo » 28 Sep 2005 18:21

Karman:
you are right about the creation of the 5th Supreme Directorate. But this seems to be my only mistake which does change nothing.

4th Directorate - anti-soviet activities


I have access only to the 1997 edition of the mentioned book (it deals only with the period until 1960) which says that the tasks of the 4th Directorate were the fight against "anti-soviet underground, nationalist formations, hostile element".

I remind that the document had also title on it:
Состояние агентурно-оперативной работы по пресечению враждебной деятельности церковников и сектантов.


It means that it is a report about the work against the "hostile actions" of the church-members and sectants.

So in conclusion: have we now established that the 4th Directorate and 4th Department dealt with church matters in 1958, or what?


Yes, at least part of the reports of the 4th Department are published in Estonian.

That is strange for me that Department with limited staff produced several copies to several bosses and left one indoors (for the grateful readers).


How do you know that also objectively it is strange?

It is also interesting that the Archive of the Estonian KGB was evacuated to Moscow starting from 1989 but some docs were left and one of them proved that the Head of Russia Orthodox Church was an agent of KGB


The document does not prove it. The document just allows us to guess this. Don't you think that if somebody wanted to frame Aleksius, one would have been able to do it more "better" (for example created a file where it is clearly stated that he is an agent)?
Last edited by Reigo on 28 Sep 2005 20:07, edited 5 times in total.

Reigo
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Post by Reigo » 28 Sep 2005 18:28

Riego -- Drop the personal remarks


Sorry.
-----
But next time also try to spell the name correctly (you have misspelled it already so many times that I thought a notice is needed).

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