Jochen Peiper picture from 1957

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Harro
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Post by Harro » 26 Nov 2005 16:56

Is the pope a Catholic Erich?

Jochen S.
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Post by Jochen S. » 26 Nov 2005 17:00

Would you count Patrick Agte as SS apologist Timo?
(I've read great recommendations for both his Bios of Peiper/Wittmann)
Erich,

There's no question about that!
In reality it is a shame how both books saw the light of day, not discussing his (past)contacts or knowledge - but rather the way he presents them and how he misused the information provided by others.

You can find a lot of information and opinions on this particular subject on AHF.

Regards,

Jochen S.

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Post by Erich Hartmann » 26 Nov 2005 17:02

Oh boy! 8O

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Harro
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Post by Harro » 26 Nov 2005 17:29

Erich, you red the book and did not come to that conclusion?

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Post by jeweste » 26 Nov 2005 17:29

Nice discussion, old discussion:
no, Peiper is not selling, specially not for me. Up to now, there is a very big minus and it was not my intention to make money out of this. And I got not any credits from the book, too. On contrary. But it had at least one wonderful outcome: the friendship with Danny S. Parker and nice contacts with other historians like Prof. James Weingartner.
I started my research about 15 years ago, very naive and influenced by the typical SS books. And with this naive view I started my interviews with the SS vets and was very long convinced, that Peiper was a great soldier. I was wrong and as his former Adjutant Hans Gruhle said: Don´t dig to deep. And after this years of digging I have to admit, that I was very long misleaded by vets and people like Patrick Agte. Now for me there is nothing left of the Waffen-SS Icon Peiper.
You will find big differences inside my books of 1996, 2004 (the book was prepared for 2001) and now the reviewed edition for January 2006 (I hope). A clear picture, how I had to change my opinion by the outcome of research work at the US National Archives, Ludwigsburg, Institut für Zeitgeschichte. A question of the sources, not a quetion of a personal agenda.
I know, that the SS buffers are hating my book, have a look at amazon.com and the reviews by forum member Mr. Karl Richter (krichter33), but as Joachim Fest said: the sources are speaking for themselfes and I´m not in the mood to defence myself. It was not my agenda to destroy the Peiper icon, this "icon" destroyed himself by the sources. But after knowing all this sources, it is my intention to show, that the picture of Peiper given by apologists and neo-nazis like Patrick Agte is a big lie. His book is a shame for the victims and a shame for the Germans of my generation (born 1966).
You will find very good sources about Peipers point of view as I would evaluate him as an so called "Alt-Nazi" and Peipers knowledge and duty during his time with his beloved and admired Himmler at Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltung Ludwigsburg. There you will find a lot of statements given by Peiper himself. Very interesting are his statements from 1967 in the context with the Dr. Best trial. He speaks about the Ghetto of Warschau, the gasing of human beings, has always nice excuses, nice storries and not one word of regret. And he is terrible lying. Here only a very small example, not very important, only to show, that he was not this pure reburth of a saint. He said, that he did not join the SS voluntary, he was enforced to join the SS by a deal between the Reichswehr and the SS. A pure lie. And you will be horrified, if you read his statements about the gasing. He even looked through the window during the gasing, his description is ice cold. Yes, for Malmedy, there is no evidence, that Peiper gave the order to shoot the US prisoners, but this was never said in serious books, like Bauserman or Weingartner. It is a typical trick in the right wing books, to say, Peiper did not gave the order or he was not present at the crossroad. Yes, that is correct, but this point was even clearified during the Malmedy trial and was not the big point. But for example, he ordered the shooting of one prisoner at Petit Thier. His troops commited so many attrocities, at Russia, at Belgium, even some killings at Italia, no question that he was a war criminal and his SS spirit and leadership style was the background of the war crimes of his units. He never interferred in the killings of his soldiers, his soldiers knew, that he did not care about their war crimes. Yes, my book is full with examples, sometimes even admitted by vets (Otto Dinse, Walther Herbert, Fritz Kosmehl), but for sure you will never find anything of this in Agtes book. And Peiper the great Tank leader? I can not find any evidence. He burnt down the Regiment within 5 weeks in Russia and where is his brillant leadership during the battle of the bulge? And the Cuneo story about the rescue of the Berlin rabbi? There is no evidence. But forum member c.g. provided me with informations, that there was in deed a Berlin family, but they were sent into the gas chambers. And there is a good threat here about the involving of Peiper Bn in the arresting of the jews. Still something for a further research. From the about 400 Cuneo jews, it seems that 24 survived, perhaps there are some statements of survivers, who arrested them. If you think, this kind of research is a personal agenda, no, this is historical research, open minded in all directions. If you find in Agtes book not a single word about the holocaust or SS crimes, yes, this is for me a political agenda of the author.
I hope, that my book will be published in English next year, the translation is in progress, and I´m sure, even the Peiper fans in the States will at least to start to think about some of that outcomes.
I´m willing to discuss my sources and my evaluations about Peiper, specially after the new edition is on the market (no, it is not for the money, please ask Andreas Schulz or Dr. Dieter Zinke, with Biblio you will not earn much :) ), but I will not start any discussions in the way it has been here so often before with "panzermahn" and others. I´m too fad up with this, even by reading the old threats (Timo against others).
If you want your nice Peiper hero picture, keep it. I have no agenda to convince anybody. And if you like to have the icon Peiper as the holy saint of the SS, stay with books from Agte and Kraetschmer ect. And as I underlined often before, I´m not omniscient and for sure not without mistakes.
Greetings to all and thank you for all nice words and the support I got from many members here.
Thanks
Jens Westemeier

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Post by Erich Hartmann » 26 Nov 2005 17:46

I'm sorry if I somehow aggravated you Mr. Westemeier. :(
I will definitely have a look into your book!

(It's just if you look around the web you will find hardly a site who isn't full
of praise for Agte's book...they can't be all Neo-Nazis, can't they?)

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Post by George Lepre » 26 Nov 2005 19:33

jeweste wrote:Nice discussion, old discussion: (...) Thanks
Jens Westemeier
That was a very eloquent post, Jens. My interest is primarily in foreign volunteer units, but it looks like I'll buy your new book when it appears. I hope it is published in January as scheduled. (Wir müßen ja die Daumen drücken!)

Best regards,

George Lepre

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Post by Erich Hartmann » 26 Nov 2005 21:34

Hmmm...after reading some threads here on AHF and catching up a bit I found there are different opinions about Patrick Agte from people who personally know him so I will abstain from any judgement because I basically know nothing.
Still, interesting topic!

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Post by Johnny_H » 26 Nov 2005 22:29

Thanks
Jens Westemeier
No thank you sir, excellent post.
I will look for your book, I have never really known much about Pieper.
Other then the rumor he was a "Excellent Soldier" but also a War Criminal.
I think your thirst for the truth is much needed, because as the war started to end and after allot of people "werent nazi's anymore" or "Didnt know" or "were just following orders" and although I am sure that there are those who that was the case, I am also very sure there were allot of people with something to hide.

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 26 Nov 2005 22:55

Johnny, you post above reminded me about a joke from Germany in mid-1943: If you got five new members for the party, you were allowed to leave the party yourself. If you got ten new members, you would get a certificate stating you had never been a member. ;)

Christian

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Post by Johnny_H » 26 Nov 2005 23:05

I was always more interested in Kurt "Panzer" Meyer
Being Canadian he always held a interest to me, seeing as he was our main opposition in Normandy.
His trial, and the fact he later worked for the Department of National Defence in Canada, I wonder if this guy was anything similar to Pieper? and knew more then he let on? or do you think that perhaps it was pieper's knowing Himmler that gave him the "Treat" of watching gassings ?

Any reservations I had about calling pieper a criminal I feel will be soon changed, once Mr.Westemeier's book is translated and printed in North America that is.

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Peiper

Post by Mona » 27 Nov 2005 05:35

To Erich Hartmann, here's a quote from Peiper:
"... I took the blame as a good CO should and was punished accordingly."
During the beginning of the Malmedy massacre trials, Peiper never said he was guilty, though offered to take full blame if the court would let his men go free. Obviously, they refused.
I think that says something about Peiper's personality and his loyalty to his men, Nazi or not. You've certainly got to give that kind of a man some respect.
The Malmedy Massacre trials were a sham. A disgrace. What about the Dachau massacre?
The Allies were the victors. And the war crimes they committed went unpunished.
I still believe that Peiper's murder was a tragedy.
Read Patrick Agte's bio of Peiper. It's very thorough and complete, although may seem a bit tipped in Peiper's favor. And I will definitely be watching for Jens' bio! It's always nice to have more than one opinion/viewpoint on a person, especially a controversial figure.
But do you know what I really wish for? That Peiper had lived long enough to write his own memoir. I mean, yeah, he's probably not going to say "I committed war crimes", but it still would have been interesting.

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Post by Erich Hartmann » 27 Nov 2005 09:03

How do they say Mona?
"The truth lays somewhere in the middle!"

Bye

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Harro
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Re: Peiper

Post by Harro » 27 Nov 2005 09:51

Mona wrote:Read Patrick Agte's bio of Peiper. It's very thorough and complete, although may seem a bit tipped in Peiper's favor.
"A bit tipped in his favour"? Mona, please do a forum search. It does not need his guilt or innocense in the Malmédy tragedy to condemn Peiper. Do you read Sjowal & Wahloo, Mona? The Malmédy case is Peipers Locked Room.

Jens, could you please tell the forum about the the house in Rottach am Tegernsee? Just as an example of what is considered here as "a bit tipped in his favor".

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Post by Erich Hartmann » 27 Nov 2005 15:29

Erm...it's me again...
Just found a book at Amazon with the Title:
"Joachim Peiper - Kommandeur und Panzerregiment Leibstandarte. Erfolg und Tragik eines vorbildlichen Soldaten"
by a FRANK AGTE.
That would not be a relative of Patrick, or? Does someone know more of him?

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