Panzergranate 40

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Panzergranate 40

Post by LV » 18 Apr 2006 14:49

Does anyone have info 'bout the materials used for manufacturing the penetrators of Panzergrante 40 APCR ammunition? Atleast Walther J. Spielberger states in his book Der Panzer-Kampfwagen Panther und seine Abarten that Panzergrante 40's formal designation was Panzergeschoß 40 mit Stahlkern, i.e. Panzergranate 40 with steel core. Does this mean that the core (penetrator) was made of tungsten steel or was it in fact made of a tungsten (probably carbide) alloy but just labeled as steel? I'm not a metallurgist, but I think that it is extremely rare for steel alloys to have more than 10% of other materials than iron. If the blueprints for Pzgr. 40 are available somewhere, I think that it may be possible to calculate the density of the core and thus determine whether it was made of a material closer to iron or to tungsten.

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Re: Panzergranate 40

Post by cbo » 18 Apr 2006 15:40

LV wrote:Does anyone have info 'bout the materials used for manufacturing the penetrators of Panzergrante 40 APCR ammunition? Atleast Walther J. Spielberger states in his book Der Panzer-Kampfwagen Panther und seine Abarten that Panzergrante 40's formal designation was Panzergeschoß 40 mit Stahlkern, i.e. Panzergranate 40 with steel core. Does this mean that the core (penetrator) was made of tungsten steel or was it in fact made of a tungsten (probably carbide) alloy but just labeled as steel? I'm not a metallurgist, but I think that it is extremely rare for steel alloys to have more than 10% of other materials than iron. If the blueprints for Pzgr. 40 are available somewhere, I think that it may be possible to calculate the density of the core and thus determine whether it was made of a material closer to iron or to tungsten.
AFAIK, the Germans used three different kinds of core for the PzGr. 40:

1. PzGr. 40 (or PzGr. 40 (Hk)): This used a tungsten alloy core (HK = Hartkern -> hard core)
2. PzGr. 40 (St): This used a steel core (St = Stahl -> steel)
3. PzGr 40 (W): This used an iron core (W = Weicheisen -> soft iron)

While #1 was the standard round, the latter two seems to have been made when the Germans ran out of tungsten and tried other materials. My personal speculation is that they had a surplus of carrier shells and just decided to put whatever cores in them they could make, but that is pure speculation on my part. The Weicheisen round seems to have resulted in an oversized penetration, suggesting that the comparatively soft projectile would deform on impact and knock out a piece of armour rather than penetrate. Of course, penetration was a lot less with the W round compared with the Hk.

The same situation applied to the PzGr.41 used in the 7,5cm PaK 41 taper-bore gun

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Post by LV » 19 Apr 2006 16:13

OK, thanks. Any idea if the pzgr. 40 rounds can be found on some original German documents dating to WW2 and if so, what documents are we talking about? I'm still trying to figure out why didn't the Germans produce more Pzgr. 40 (Stahlkern), since it's penetration capabilities were astonishing and it obviously didn't contain tungsten. To me it seems that it would have been about just as easy to produce as Pzgr. 39. Kw.K. 43's Pzgr. 40 (Stahlkern) was able to penetrate 233mm RHA at 1,000 meters at optimal an angle (Pz.Kpfw. Panther und seine Abarten). What about the Pzgr. 40 (Hk) with tungsten core then? Wouldn't the penetration have been close to 300 mm under the same conditions mentioned above? Penetration data seems to be very hard to find eventhogh the Germans were real testing maniacs. The common belief that Pzgr. 40 was phased out in 1943 due to shortage of tungsten seems completely untrue for atleast two reasons: 1: The higjly effective Pzgr. 40 (Stahlkern) could be manufactured without tungsten and still penetrate 300 mm at point blank (8,8cm L/71). 2: The Finns had Pzgr. 40's in the summer of 1944 in such quantities that up to six of them were issued per StuG 40 in combat (I'm not sure whether they were Hk or St). Are there any production data available for German 50-88mm AT rounds? It would be cool to see how large percent of all the 50-88mm AT rounds were Pzgr. 40 (Hk) or (St)

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Post by cbo » 19 Apr 2006 22:56

LV wrote: OK, thanks. Any idea if the pzgr. 40 rounds can be found on some original German documents dating to WW2 and if so, what documents are we talking about? )
Manuals for the guns and ammo. I think there used to be a guy here under the nick of Zünder who had a wealth of info and sources on German WWII ammo. I think he is active on this forum http://213.147.167.60/blaze/index.php (in German).
LV wrote: I'm still trying to figure out why didn't the Germans produce more Pzgr. 40 (Stahlkern), since it's penetration capabilities were astonishing and it obviously didn't contain tungsten. To me it seems that it would have been about just as easy to produce as Pzgr. 39. Kw.K. 43's Pzgr. 40 (Stahlkern) was able to penetrate 233mm RHA at 1,000 meters at optimal an angle (Pz.Kpfw. Panther und seine Abarten).
I think Spielberger have made a mistake with regards to the type of PzGr 40 involved. In the book you refer to on p. 239, he speaks of an 88mm "Panzergeschoss mit Stahlkern 40, PzGr. 40 40/43 W", which is rather odd. The W would indicate a Weicheisen round and the penetration data seems to be the same as other sources use for the tungsten round (Jentz, for example). In any case, as far as I know, PzGr 40 production for the KwK/PaK 43 was as good as non-existant.
The same issues seem to apply to the data for the KwK 42 on p. 233, except that this round does not have the "W" suffix. These figures seems to be from a UK/US source, as the distances in meters seem to be conversion from yards.
LV wrote:What about the Pzgr. 40 (Hk) with tungsten core then? Wouldn't the penetration have been close to 300 mm under the same conditions mentioned above? Penetration data seems to be very hard to find eventhogh the Germans were real testing maniacs. The common belief that Pzgr. 40 was phased out in 1943 due to shortage of tungsten seems completely untrue for atleast two reasons: 1: The higjly effective Pzgr. 40 (Stahlkern) could be manufactured without tungsten and still penetrate 300 mm at point blank (8,8cm L/71). 2: The Finns had Pzgr. 40's in the summer of 1944 in such quantities that up to six of them were issued per StuG 40 in combat (I'm not sure whether they were Hk or St). Are there any production data available for German 50-88mm AT rounds? It would be cool to see how large percent of all the 50-88mm AT rounds were Pzgr. 40 (Hk) or (St)
There is plenty of penetration data available on German guns from numerous sources in books and on the Internet. In fact, I'm astounded that you have problems finding any :) The real problem is to find out how the figures were achieved and what the original sources are.

You can start here: http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/germany.html and here: http://www.wargamer.com/cm/john%20salt/ww2pen.rtf

As for the tungsten PzGr 40 production stopping in 1943 is a solid and fairly well documented fact AFAIK as is the German problems of getting tungsten. Production data exists (see Hahn: "Waffen und Geheimwaffen...." for example), even if PzGr40 production data is not necessarily split up on the different types.

As stated above, I think Spielbergers penetration figures are for the tungsten cored round, not the steel-cored one.

As for the Finns having 7,5cm PzGr 40 for the StuK 40 in 1944, that may be possible, but the Germans were all but out at the end of 1943, what wasn't fired in combat was reclaimed for industrial use. They retained a lot of PzGr 40 for some of the smaller guns though. IIRC the Finns got about 60 StuGs and about half of those were recieved in 1943. So possibly the PzGr 40 rounds were those delivered with the vehicles from Germany, AFAIK each vehicle was delivered with four loads of ammunition which would probably include some PzGr 40 at this time. The remaining vehicles were delivered in the summer of 1944 and may not have been shipped with PzGr 40. According to this site (http://www.andreaslarka.net/sturmi.html), the 1943 deliveries didn't see combat until the summer of 1944 and the the 1944 batch may never have been used in combat as hostilities ended in September 1944.

What is you source for the Finnish use of PzGr 40?

Claus B

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Post by Tony Williams » 20 Apr 2006 05:12

Germany did retain certain tungsten-cored rounds in use, for the 5 cm Pak 38 and the BK 3,7 aircraft gun, because these weapons would have been ineffective without them. They weren't needed so much for the 7,5 cm, and not at all for the 8,8 cm Paks.

Apparently some 5 cm Pzgr 40 were filled with uranium ore left over from the A-bomb project. Not DU, and not healthy to handle...

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Post by LV » 20 Apr 2006 12:55

Thanks for the info. About the documents I meant that if anyone had the specific index numbers of the manuals or documents covering Pzgr. 40. I guess this Zünder guy can help me out if I can get in touch with him. With the problems of finding penetration data I meant that it is hard to find data for Pzgr. 40 (Hk), because I thought that the data commonly available (e.g. Spielberger) was for Pzgr. 40 (St) and not (Hk). Now it seems that Spielberger has made a mistake. It just odd because his German military vehicles series is one of the best known works in the business and there have been numerous new editions of his books (I think up to 7 or 8) and still the data remains incorrect.

What I'm trying to find out is that why the Pzgr. 40 production for calibers 75mm and up was discontinued if it could also be manufactured with a steel core (St)? Still I have found no figures about the Pzgr. 40 (St) penetration. I suppose that fairly good results might have been achieved using a steel molybdenum nickel alloy, without depleting the diminishing stocks of tungsten.

My source for the Finns' usage of Pzgr. 40 is a book called Rynnäkkötykit isänmaamme puolustajina (Assault Guns as Defenders of our Fatherland) by Lauri Leppänen who served as a gunner in a Stu 40, destroying five Soviet tanks. Also Pekka Kantakoski (former commander of a Finnish peace-time tank battalion) gives Finnish penetration data for StuK 40 L/48 Pzgr. 40 in his extensive work called Punaiset panssarit - Puna-armeijan panssarijoukot 1918-1945 (Red Armor -Tank Corps of the Red Army 1918-1945). The Finnish penetration figures are a bit bigger than the German (probably due to poorer testing armor plate).

If I can find an original German document (or documents) that includes all three types of German Pzgr. 40 (Hk, St, W) and gives all their data and cross sections, I'll be happy. But as I hava already said, I still wonder why weren't the German 75-128 mm guns supplied with huge amounts of Pzgr. 40 with steel cores.

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Post by Tony Williams » 20 Apr 2006 18:51

LV wrote:But as I hava already said, I still wonder why weren't the German 75-128 mm guns supplied with huge amounts of Pzgr. 40 with steel cores.
It certainly should have been worthwhile for the medium-velocity guns, but not for the Panther's 75mm L/70 gun or the 88mm L/71. Steel AP shot tended to shatter at striking velocities of much over 1,000 m/s, and these guns were in that ballpark even with full calibre ammo.

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Post by LV » 21 Apr 2006 11:31

Alright. Is this to be understood so that Pzgr. 40 was found to be ineffective due to shatter when fired from long-barreled guns (v0 ~ 1150 m/s) and was therefore not produced in quantity? This seems a bit odd since the German metallurgy was (is) of high standard and I recall the Soviets having had a steel alloy penetrator in one of their 125 mm APFSDS shots (v0 over 1600 m/s). It should be borne in mind that Pzgr. 40 had a cap between the windshield and core. Any (original) penetration data for Pzgr. 40 (St) available? Could someone probably recommend any good books covering Pzgr. 40?

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Post by Tony Williams » 21 Apr 2006 13:33

I think that you'll find that the metallurgy of AP shot has improved out of all recognition since WW2.

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Post by M.Rausch » 23 Apr 2006 21:32

As for the tungsten PzGr 40 production stopping in 1943 is a solid and fairly well documented fact AFAIK as is the German problems of getting tungsten. Production data exists (see Hahn: "Waffen und Geheimwaffen...." for example), even if PzGr40 production data is not necessarily split up on the different types.
Sorry, but this seems to be another myth built up over the time.

I have copies of about 760 original documents showing the German Heeres ammunition production, consumption and storage numbers with overview of the last 12-15 months on each page. They tell something different.

For the 5 cm Pak 38, 5 cm Kw.K. L/60 and 7.5 cm Kw.K./Stu.K. 40 there was still Pzgr. 40 production running in December 1943 and there is not any indication that the production stopped in that month.

Hahn is telling no production numbers for the Pzgr. 40 for the year 1944, because he used obviously the same sources I have and the sheets for 1944/45 are missing for almost all Paks and KwK's. He is telling no numbers for 1944 not because there was no production but because he had no sources for them ;)

Some storage numbers to get an idea about the German supply situation.

December 1943:
680,000 3.7 cm Pzgr. 40 for the 3.7 cm Pak and about 269,000 3.7 cm Pzgr. 40 for the Kw.K.
207,000 5 cm Pzgr. 40 and 40/1 for the 5 cm Pak 38.
298,000 5 cm Pzgr. 40 and 40/1 for the 5 cm Kw.K. (L/42).
32,000 5 cm Pzgr. 40 and 40/1 for the 5 cm Kw.K. 39 (L/60).
About 15,000 7.5 cm Pzgr. 40 for the 7.5 cm Kw.K./Stu.K. 40.
55,000 7.5 cm Pzgr. 41 (H.K.) for the 7.5 cm Pak 41.
60,000 7.6 cm Pzgr. 40 for the 7.6 cm Pak.

For all these guns there are no documents telling the data for 1944/45.

These are the numbers after rounds were sent to the tungsten reserve. The 7.9 mm, 2 cm, 7.5 cm Kw.K. 42 and 8.8 cm Kw.K. 36 tungsten core ammunition was all sent to the tungsten reserve till end of 1943 or much earlier.

Also here some penetration numbers from the Krupp tests from 1942-45, also from original sources.

On 500 m distance and 60° impact angle (German notation) 174 mm for the 7.5 cm Pzgr. 41 and 80 mm for the 7.5 cm Pzgr. 41 (W). While a steel core round was under ´test with 110 mm penetration on this distance, it seems the round was not introduced.

On 100 m distance and 60° impact angle (German notation) 126 mm for the 7.5 cm Pzgr. 40 and 77 mm for the 7.5 cm Pzgr. 40 (W).

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Post by cbo » 25 Apr 2006 09:42

M.Rausch wrote: Sorry, but this seems to be another myth built up over the time.

I have copies of about 760 original documents showing the German Heeres ammunition production, consumption and storage numbers with overview of the last 12-15 months on each page. They tell something different.

For the 5 cm Pak 38, 5 cm Kw.K. L/60 and 7.5 cm Kw.K./Stu.K. 40 there was still Pzgr. 40 production running in December 1943 and there is not any indication that the production stopped in that month.

Hahn is telling no production numbers for the Pzgr. 40 for the year 1944, because he used obviously the same sources I have and the sheets for 1944/45 are missing for almost all Paks and KwK's. He is telling no numbers for 1944 not because there was no production but because he had no sources for them ;)
Please tell more - if it is a myth, then we'd better kill it :)

I assume that it is only the PzGr 40 data that is missing, as Hahn has info on production and expenditure for other types of ammunition for 1944/45? The KwK and Pak for which the sheets are not missing, what do they tell about PzGr 40 production in 1944/45? Do the data you have make the distinction between PzGr 40 HK and W (and StK, if it was ever fielded?).

AFAIK Germany got most of her tungsten from Portugal and Spain, and while there was heavy competition between the allies and Germany over Portuguese and Spanish tungsten through the war, the allies managed to make deals with the two countries in 1944 which severely reduced exports to Germany. Also, I guess acess to those sources was made rather difficult by the summer of 1944 when the allies occupied most of France. Found an interesting snippet of info stating that by September 1944, US intelligence had reported that Germany had been forced to use inferior alloys to make machine tools and that expenditure of tungsten ammunition had fallen.

All in all, I'd say that any significant production of tungsten ammunition beyond the summer of 1944 is highly unlikely, given the tungsten supply situation.

Some additional penetration data:

7,5cm PaK 40, PaK 39 and StuK 40:

PzGr 40 (standard, tungsten)
100m: 126
500m: 108
1000m: 87
1500m: 69
2000m: 53

PzGr 40 W (Weicheisen, iron)
100m: 77
500m: 69
1000m: 56
1500m: 38
2000m: N/A

PzGr 39
100m: 99
500m: 91
1000m: 81
1500m: 72
2000m: 63

If the firing tests only give the figures for the distance of 100 meters, perhaps the rest is calculated?

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Post by M.Rausch » 25 Apr 2006 10:43

I assume that it is only the PzGr 40 data that is missing, as Hahn has info on production and expenditure for other types of ammunition for 1944/45? The KwK and Pak for which the sheets are not missing, what do they tell about PzGr 40 production in 1944/45? Do the data you have make the distinction between PzGr 40 HK and W (and StK, if it was ever fielded?).
The sheets for all Pzgr. 40, no matter what gun, end with December 1943. For the "normal" ammunition most guns have sheets till December 1944, January or even March 1945.

The 7.5 cm Pzgr. 40 (W) has its production listed for the time from 11.42 till 10.43, but no storage or consumption numbers.
The 7.5 cm Pzgr. 41 (W) has the production listed from 11.42 till 8.43, but also no storage and consumption.
The 7.5 cm Pzgr. 41 (St) has a planned production listed, but another sheets tells that no production was made.
All in all, I'd say that any significant production of tungsten ammunition beyond the summer of 1944 is highly unlikely, given the tungsten supply situation.
I agree, but it was also no longer needed. For the smaller calibres of 3.7 cm and 5 cm there was an abundance of Pzgr. 40 rounds in storage in December 1943 regarding the number of remaining guns of these calibres. For the 5 cm Kw.K. 39 and 7.5 cm Kw.K. 40 there was a production till at least December 1943 at the level of the consumption. The 7.5 cm Kw.K. 42 and 8.8 cm Kw.K. 43 needed not any special ammunition to deal with the opponents met on the battlefield.
If the firing tests only give the figures for the distance of 100 meters, perhaps the rest is calculated?
I simply didn't type them ;) The source are the penetration values reported by the Gercke department. For some rounds/projects there are just numbers for one distance (normally 1000 m), for others the numbers on 100, 500 upto 3000 m (in 500 m steps) are listed. The reported numbers are imho not the complete tests, so there is no way to say what numbers were found by firing and what were calculated. For this the complete test shooting protocols would be needed. While I had plenty of them offered some years ago, I had not the financial resources to buy them.

And please don't forget that the German armor penetration definition was the most strict of all nations during WW2. When you transform the German penetration values to the British definition, the penetration numbers increase depending on the round about 5-10%. In some cases like for the 3.7 cm Kw.K./Pak even 50% and more.

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Post by cbo » 25 Apr 2006 12:40

M.Rausch wrote: I agree, but it was also no longer needed. For the smaller calibres of 3.7 cm and 5 cm there was an abundance of Pzgr. 40 rounds in storage in December 1943 regarding the number of remaining guns of these calibres. For the 5 cm Kw.K. 39 and 7.5 cm Kw.K. 40 there was a production till at least December 1943 at the level of the consumption. The 7.5 cm Kw.K. 42 and 8.8 cm Kw.K. 43 needed not any special ammunition to deal with the opponents met on the battlefield.
But where is the "myth" then?

Seems to me that the available data suggest that PzGr 40 production could very well have been stopped at the end of 1943 (or in some cases earlier) and certainly by the summer of 1944. On the other hand, there does not seem to be any data supporting the idea that production continued?

I dont know the nature of the files you have, but couldn't the fact that sheets dealing with PzGr 40 ends in December 1943 have something to do with production running out? Or can you positively say that the sheets are missing from the files?
The sheets for all Pzgr. 40, no matter what gun, end with December 1943. For the "normal" ammunition most guns have sheets till December 1944, January or even March 1945.

The 7.5 cm Pzgr. 40 (W) has its production listed for the time from 11.42 till 10.43, but no storage or consumption numbers.
The 7.5 cm Pzgr. 41 (W) has the production listed from 11.42 till 8.43, but also no storage and consumption.
The 7.5 cm Pzgr. 41 (St) has a planned production listed, but another sheets tells that no production was made.
Looking at Hahns figures, there seems to be something fishy going on. He lists 7,5cm KwK/StuK PzGr 40 production as:

1942: 7000
1943: 36400

While the PzGr 40 W production is

1942: 4400
1943: 70300

While the consumption for the 7,5cm KwK is listed as

1942: no record
1943: 91500

The 1943 consumption alone exceeds production of the Hk round by a wide margin, perhaps suggesting that the consumption figures included the PzGr 40W? Or is his data in error?

And please don't forget that the German armor penetration definition was the most strict of all nations during WW2. When you transform the German penetration values to the British definition, the penetration numbers increase depending on the round about 5-10%. In some cases like for the 3.7 cm Kw.K./Pak even 50% and more.
I dont know if they were the most "strict", there seems to have been a good deal of variety in the selection of ammunition for tests (IIRC some just took a batch of production ammo while the Germans tested the ammunition quality prior to testing), testplates (German plate being more resistant than US, for example. IIRC British test plate was about the same as German, at least in hardness) as well as test criteria for penetration (some used 20% of projectile making it through, others 75%) and criteria for how many rounds of a given batch should penetrate. With regards to the latter, IIRC the Germans used a 50% criteria whereas the Soviets used an 80% criteria.

So while you may be right with German vs British results, this may not necessarily apply to, say, German vs Soviet tests.

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Post by M.Rausch » 25 Apr 2006 21:39

But where is the "myth" then?
As for the tungsten PzGr 40 production stopping in 1943 is a solid and fairly well documented fact
You claimed the above quoted. This is neither solid nor in any way well documented. All original documents available suggest a small scale production for some guns in 1944 and not a total stop in 1943.
I dont know the nature of the files you have, but couldn't the fact that sheets dealing with PzGr 40 ends in December 1943 have something to do with production running out? Or can you positively say that the sheets are missing from the files?
These are the official ammunition production, storage and consumption sheets of the Heereswaffenamt from 1939 to 1945. If for a round the production stopped it was still documented what the storage numbers at the Heereswaffenamt supply centers and for the frontline units were, how many rounds were reported as fired at the frontline, at training or any other reasons for a change of storage numbers (e.g. rounds retooled). For all Pzgr. 40 rounds still in storage in December 1943 (we talk here about over one million rounds for the various calibres) the documentation of this further consumption is missing. And they were definitely not transferred to the tungsten reserve, since these transfers are all documented till December 1943.
Or is his data in error?
When I got Hahn's books I thought how impressive and detailed they were. After I got plenty of original doucments on this topic I have to question the origin and quality of his sources. The original sheets of the Heereswaffenamt tell simply different numbers in many cases. In a few cases I am quite sure what mistakes Hahn made, since in these cases the numbers he listed were the numbers of empty shell cases produced, not the number of filled read-to-fire rounds. In other cases the documented production exceeds his numbers by far. The production numbers told in original documents are in their majority different to Hahn's numbers.

You have to know that the ammunition producing companies delivered empty shell cases and the fillers seperately to the Heereswaffenamt, which performed the filling of the rounds. Only the Heereswaffenamt did know, how many shells were really produced ready to be fired each month.
With regards to the latter, IIRC the Germans used a 50% criteria whereas the Soviets used an 80% criteria.
Ah, that's a mistake almost everyone makes :) The "50% penetratium criterium" was not 50% but 66%. It was just one of about a dozen ammunition acceptance test conditions and had not anything to do with the German penetration definition.

The real German penetration definition was, that for a consecutive numbers of shots all of them had to penetrate with 100% of the projectile without a single failure. The number of consecutive shots demanded depended on the calibre of the weapon. The number ranged between 20 (for rifle calibre) and 3 (calibre 21 cm and higher). For the calibre 7.5 cm it was 5-8 rounds.

The German penetration definition was the most strictly including the Russians.

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Post by cbo » 03 May 2006 10:57

M.Rausch wrote:But where is the "myth" then?
As for the tungsten PzGr 40 production stopping in 1943 is a solid and fairly well documented fact


You claimed the above quoted. This is neither solid nor in any way well documented. All original documents available suggest a small scale production for some guns in 1944 and not a total stop in 1943.
OK, maybe I wasn't clear, but I was thinking of the 7,5cm round were were discussing at the time, not all the other calibers.

Still, as I have read you posts, you do not have any data showing production of any caliber of PzGr 40 after December 1943 but you do have - as does Hahn - data that shows that there was a lot of previously produced PzGr 40 ammunition in stoorage after December 1943.

Just to get this straight, do you have any solid data stating directly that tungsten-cored PzGr 40 of any caliber was produced in 1944/45?
With regards to the latter, IIRC the Germans used a 50% criteria whereas the Soviets used an 80% criteria.

Ah, that's a mistake almost everyone makes :) The "50% penetratium criterium" was not 50% but 66%. It was just one of about a dozen ammunition acceptance test conditions and had not anything to do with the German penetration definition.

The real German penetration definition was, that for a consecutive numbers of shots all of them had to penetrate with 100% of the projectile without a single failure. The number of consecutive shots demanded depended on the calibre of the weapon. The number ranged between 20 (for rifle calibre) and 3 (calibre 21 cm and higher). For the calibre 7.5 cm it was 5-8 rounds.
So what you are saying here, is that when the Germans made their actual firing tests for, say, a 7,5cm KwK 40, they fired at a target plate until they had 5-8 censecutive rounds penetrating with 100% of the projectile ending up on the other side of the plate. Lets say the result was 100mm penetration at 100 meters.

Later, whe batches of ammunition from the factories were tested for acceptance, at least 66% (2/3) of those rounds had to penetrate at least 100mm at 100 meters as well.

Correct?

Thanks for the comments on Hahns sources, very interesting!

Claus B

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