Liberation of Croatia?

Discussions on all aspects of the smaller Axis nations in Europe and Asia. Hosted by G. Trifkovic.
User avatar
Hrvat
Member
Posts: 131
Joined: 17 Jan 2005 00:01

Liberation of Croatia?

Post by Hrvat » 17 May 2006 06:27

[split from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=75080]

:roll: the liberation of Croatia of Croatians, not too long after that and jelacic fell

User avatar
alibegoa
Member
Posts: 96
Joined: 26 Mar 2003 10:01
Location: Sarajevo

Post by alibegoa » 18 May 2006 07:36

Hrvat wrote::roll: the liberation of Croatia of Croatians, not too long after that and jelacic fell
I politely disagree, you make it sound like no Croats were in th partisan forces.
Would you like to forget that Tito himself was a Croat?

It was the liberation of Croatia of a murderous, genocidal, barbarous fascist regime!

User avatar
Hrvat
Member
Posts: 131
Joined: 17 Jan 2005 00:01

Post by Hrvat » 19 May 2006 20:24

Well i politely disagree with you, It was merely the exchange of one devil (german-italian occupation) for another (Titos communism)

Dont be fooled Tito was no Croat, maybe by birth (half) but by all other regards he was the biggest killer of Croats from the times of the Ottoman conquest, he orchestrated the massacre of a generation of Croatian patriots so that his artificial yugoslavia could live, countless forests and pits were filled after the war with the flower of Croatian youth and attest to this which werent allowed to be talked about and only in recent time been discovered and the last truth about ww2 has begun to emerge, namely the repatriation and massacre of Croat citizens who were not in line with yugo communism, did Tito not say the sava will flow backwards before Croatia will be independent? some ' Croat '

and the partizani fought for a Yugoslavia and a Croatia in a federated yugoslavia (which turned into a greater serbia in which any adherence to Croat-dom landed you in jail with ur ribs broken) not an indepednent Croatia, if that was the case it would of not disapeared from the map in 45' ,dont be so naive

so why did jelacic's statue have to fall and the square be re-named? some liberation

User avatar
alibegoa
Member
Posts: 96
Joined: 26 Mar 2003 10:01
Location: Sarajevo

Post by alibegoa » 20 May 2006 09:58

Dont forget that Franjo Tuđman WAS also a general in Tito's forces.
What have to say about that?

And yes, it is true Tito murdered a number of fascist Croats, but I say to you good riddance, those were all murdering, genocidal bastards. And yes some innocents got killed too, unfortunately. Back to members of ustaša forces, he did not get them all unfortunately since they started reappearing in the 1992-1995 war and doing what they do best attacking other peoples and opening KZs.

Jelačić had to go because he was a relic of old times, you know whenever a regime changes in the Balkans, artifacts of the old have to go as well. So it was really not a big deal.

Tito's regime was indeed far from ideal, but it was infinitely better than the one it had replaced. Need I mention that the official line of present Croatian government is that NDH (ie. the regime Tito liberated Croatia from) was fascist, barbarous and genocidal (ie. thanks goodnes Croatians were delivered from it) and that present day Croatia considers itself continuation of Tito's Croatia.

User avatar
Hrvat
Member
Posts: 131
Joined: 17 Jan 2005 00:01

Post by Hrvat » 21 May 2006 00:07

genocidal bastards? i see yet you are another of the graduate of titos brainwashing school to label the Croatian nation as genocidal in order to cloak their own crimes, have a look at the various primary reports such as that of the welsh guards which indicate what kind of people were led back to their deaths, it was simple peasants with no blood on their hands majmune jedan. Their only crime was they believed in an independent Croatia.

Relics u say? its a Croatian symbol thats why it had to go, as did the Croatian language, Croatian history, Croatian flag, Croatian anthem, Croatian songs and any expression of Croat-ness............. any expression of such landed you hard time in prison or worse....... but it did not die in the minds of the people and was kept alive in the diaspora and made its return in 1990 as did jelacic

Titos Croatia, u mean titos prison. And your right unfortunately the current Croatian government is a relic of the old regime, a bunch of spineless red scum who work for foreign interests and prosecute the same men who fought for and resurected Croatia so that they could sit and have their cushy positions. As for Tudjman yes he was an ethiest communist who believed that a equal and federated yugoslavia was the solution but as the case of Hebrang shows this was not the case and a greater serbia developed under the guile of a yugoslav name and only when it was too late did Franjo and other Croatian partisans realize their efforts were in vain. How was the communist regime less ' barbarous, fascist and genocidal' with things like bleiburg, jazovka, macelj, the way of the cross, goli otok, worldwide assassinations killing activists and their familys and one of the most brutal operating police states at the time kos/udba? I though maybe you would have more sense because aprox. 50,000 of your own kin (Hrvati islamsko vjereizpovjesti or the new izmisljotina narod bosnjaka) fell in Bleiburg and the subsuquent killing fields

User avatar
Hrvat
Member
Posts: 131
Joined: 17 Jan 2005 00:01

Post by Hrvat » 21 May 2006 00:09

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
alibegoa
Member
Posts: 96
Joined: 26 Mar 2003 10:01
Location: Sarajevo

Post by alibegoa » 21 May 2006 07:11

Hrvat wrote:genocidal bastards? i see yet you are another of the graduate of titos brainwashing school to label the Croatian nation as genocidal in order to cloak their own crimes, have a look at the various primary reports such as that of the welsh guards which indicate what kind of people were led back to their deaths, it was simple peasants with no blood on their hands majmune jedan. Their only crime was they believed in an independent Croatia.

Relics u say? its a Croatian symbol thats why it had to go, as did the Croatian language, Croatian history, Croatian flag, Croatian anthem, Croatian songs and any expression of Croat-ness............. any expression of such landed you hard time in prison or worse....... but it did not die in the minds of the people and was kept alive in the diaspora and made its return in 1990 as did jelacic

Titos Croatia, u mean titos prison. And your right unfortunately the current Croatian government is a relic of the old regime, a bunch of spineless red scum who work for foreign interests and prosecute the same men who fought for and resurected Croatia so that they could sit and have their cushy positions. As for Tudjman yes he was an ethiest communist who believed that a equal and federated yugoslavia was the solution but as the case of Hebrang shows this was not the case and a greater serbia developed under the guile of a yugoslav name and only when it was too late did Franjo and other Croatian partisans realize their efforts were in vain. How was the communist regime less ' barbarous, fascist and genocidal' with things like bleiburg, jazovka, macelj, the way of the cross, goli otok, worldwide assassinations killing activists and their familys and one of the most brutal operating police states at the time kos/udba? I though maybe you would have more sense because aprox. 50,000 of your own kin (Hrvati islamsko vjereizpovjesti or the new izmisljotina narod bosnjaka) fell in Bleiburg and the subsuquent killing fields
About the bolded parts, you yourself recognize that we had an equal and federated state but then you whine about loosing independence, freedom, language etc. Those two things are mutually exclusive.
Regarding the nation of Bosniaks, it is neither made up or new, we are talking about a nation that was under foreign occupation for more than 500 years and in spite of that including attacks by your own nation which is evident from your remarks, kept their own identity and now made a remarkable recovery.

Regarding the NDH regime you crave so much, the Croatia then was neither independent (it was occupied) nor Croatian (it was nazi German and Italian).

From your posts it is quite easy to recongize that you approve of all dark deeds that some of your countryman (not all as you would like to put words in my mouth) had done to please their nazi masters or from their own pleasure (and some of those deeds and methods to commit them were so dark that even your then masters could not believe it). I also recognize from your defence of that regime that you can not wait and long for time to be able to commit all of those deeds again.

Ask yourself if you consider yourself a human being and a christian, what ideal was worth all the blood of innocent children, women, man and elderly that stood in your way 1941-1945 and whose blood you would again spill ( which is obvious from your admiration of nazi Croatian regime that even present day Croats distance themself from, and your denial of Bosniaks nation which in your mind requires them to be wiped out).

But I will grant you this, we are similar in one way. You are a nazi and crave for innocents' blood. I also crave, for blood of all murderous bastards, who would kill even innocent children indiscriminately, for their own pleasure or feeling of racial superiority.

User avatar
Junak1929
Member
Posts: 368
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 04:52
Location: Canada

Post by Junak1929 » 28 Aug 2006 04:04

I find this hillarious, and personally, I don't know where to start !

First of all, Tito was a Half Croat - his mother was Slovenian. However, in my opinion he was the farthest thing from a Croat possible. According to the Father of Croatia, Ante Starcevic, there is much more to being a Croat then simply being birth in Croatia, or being born of Croatian parents.

I have been reading this forum for some time, and I have noticed that these tiny attacks get through, however if I was to say something pro-ustasa, the post would probably be deleted.

"Tito was a Croat"
"Franjo Tudman was a partizan"

Tito, was not a Croat, he was the biggest anti-croat / Croatophobe who ever lived.
Franjo Tudman - sure, he was a general in Tito's army - and I do not see how this is relavent to the discussion. He was a general, but was also apart of the Croatian Spring in the 70's, and was amongst the first to speak out against Tito and Yugoslavia. Stating a random fact like this is just you covering up all of the rest of the points in which "Hrvat" has proved you wrong.

Clearly, you misunderstood what "Hrvat" said, because he was saying that Tudman thought (as in not him?) the solution was an "equal federative state" - which alot of people did, however, that is the complete opposite of the definition of Yugoslavia as a nation.

As for "It wasn't Independent, it wasn't a state" - which ever you said in the above, are you trying to quote our new president Stipe Mesic??? LOL. The NDH was an Independent state, simply because the autonomy of Croatia did not fall under any other empire/country/federation - it was Croatia on it's own with it's own anthem/currency/parliament/government/leader etc. You do not have to look into it past - it was simply not apart of any other nation, thus Croatia is independent - meaning on it's own, if you are not sure as to what the definition of independent really is.

* EDITED FOR CONTENT BY THE MODERATOR. KEEP NATIONAL AND PERSONAL INSULTS OUT OF YOUR POSTS *

User avatar
Junak1929
Member
Posts: 368
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 04:52
Location: Canada

Post by Junak1929 » 28 Aug 2006 04:08

I am going to agree 110 percent with Hrvat. Since this was not the liberation of Croatia, much more the imprisonment of the Croatian people.

User avatar
Allen Milcic
Member
Posts: 2903
Joined: 09 Sep 2003 20:29
Location: Canada

Post by Allen Milcic » 28 Aug 2006 22:34

Junak1929 wrote: As for "It wasn't Independent, it wasn't a state" - which ever you said in the above, are you trying to quote our new president Stipe Mesic??? LOL. The NDH was an Independent state, simply because the autonomy of Croatia did not fall under any other empire/country/federation - it was Croatia on it's own with it's own anthem/currency/parliament/government/leader etc. You do not have to look into it past - it was simply not apart of any other nation, thus Croatia is independent - meaning on it's own, if you are not sure as to what the definition of independent really is.
Junak:

An anthem, a flag, a currency, a leader whose decisions were made for him by foreign governments and a powerless local parliament do not equate with an independent state. The definition of "independence" as it relates to a political entity entails that a state is not just de jure "apart" from another nation, but also that it has de facto control and rule over itself, and that it does not rely on other (states) for its existence. Unfortunately for Croatia and the Croatian people, the NDH never fit within these parametars - it's foundation was at the tip of foreign bayonets, and its continued existence was only due to the efforts and mercies of its "allies". The NDH was a puppet, nothing more, independent only in name and utterly un-Croatian in the rules and laws it sought to enforce.

Certainly, the Croatian nation has the right to self-determination, but the NDH was not the result of our people's will - a proclamation of independence by a fringe political faction, as the result of a foreign invasion and without even basic input from the population of Croatia, does not equal self-determination. And it is misleading to state that the NDH was internationally recognized; the only states that recognized it were members of the Axis, and not a single neutral state saw it as a country.

Today's Republic of Croatia, on the other hand, was created by an internal, grass-roots political process of the Croatian people, who by legal means and without foreign troops gained true sovereignty. The Republic of Croatia today makes its own decisions, rules its own lands, has a democratically elected government and is not at the not-so-tender mercies of foreign overlords. This is the truly independent state of Croatia, not the WW2 statelet whose creation and actions are a blemish on the Croatian soul.

Allen/

User avatar
Allen Milcic
Member
Posts: 2903
Joined: 09 Sep 2003 20:29
Location: Canada

Post by Allen Milcic » 28 Aug 2006 22:41

* A nationalist posting by Hrvat which was contrary to the Forum Guidelines was removed by the Moderator *

User avatar
Junak1929
Member
Posts: 368
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 04:52
Location: Canada

Post by Junak1929 » 29 Aug 2006 00:55

You deleted his entire post ?

You can be completely against NDH, but anyone who is for it can not speak up or their post gets deleted ?

Todays Croatia was completely created by other nations and the Croatian disapora. The war would have ended within the first five days if it wasn't for the Croatians outside of Croatia. They wouldn't have been there without NDH. And without NDH the Croatian name would not have survived.

The Republic of Croatia today - atleast the one I see - makes it's laws to keep the European Union happy, much like NDH made many of it's laws to keep Germany happy.

Calling the NDH a puppet etc is a mockery to every Croatian soldier that died fighting for it. They were led by Dr. Ante Pavelic, not Adolf Hitler, you just make it seem that way most of the time.

Actually , can you give me a list of laws imposed on NDH by Nazi Germany ?

I can show you them along with a comparison list of laws made by the government of the NDH - believe me, the list is much longer.

You make the NDH seem so horrible because of "attrocities" and rediculous racial policy. If you take out the anti-semetic factor, what was the difference between 41-45 and 91-95 ? According to you, even RH was illegally formed, and everyone who faught for it was a bloodthursty monster.

In the NDH , you could be Croatian, you could wave a Croatian flag, you could go to church ... sounds pretty Croatian to me !

User avatar
Junak1929
Member
Posts: 368
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 04:52
Location: Canada

Post by Junak1929 » 29 Aug 2006 00:55

Sorry about the horrible arrangement of the post, I'm not going to lie I am very angry right now.

User avatar
Junak1929
Member
Posts: 368
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 04:52
Location: Canada

Post by Junak1929 » 29 Aug 2006 01:18

Can you please tell me which foreign leaders told Dr. Ante Pavelic how to govern the NDH, and when ? I have many letters, and copies of letters but I don't have evidence of direct orders from anyone. Poglavnik Dr. Ante Pavelic, didn't even meet with Hitler or Mussolini a total of ten times put together.

But I guess according to you, he must have just been a good man, who was forced to do bad stuff by outsiders ! That's a good one, very clever, I'm going to use that for sure.

Which country today survives all on its own ? That would be pretty amazing if that was actually possible. Actually, how about this, you tell me which country is completely run "de facto", and has nothing to do with any other nation, and I will purchase a place to live on it.

If the NDH was so "foreign" why did so many Croatians lose their lives ? Let us compare numbers between Croatian casualties in NDH, and German/Italian casualities in NDH, shall we ?

"but the NDH was not the result of our people's will - a proclamation of independence by a fringe political faction" .... Hmmm .... Dr. Franjo Tudman begs to differ.... As do I.. One moment you make the creation seem so foreign, and now this ?

"And it is misleading to state that the NDH was internationally recognized; the only states that recognized it were members of the Axis, and not a single neutral state saw it as a country."

Webster's dictionary defines international as :

"Involving more the one country"

"Of, relating to, or involving two or more nations: an international commission; international affairs."

Who recognized the NDH ? Let's see... Germany, Italy - OH ! I can stop there because it is alread considered international. Point proven ?

"Today's Republic of Croatia, on the other hand, was created by an internal, grass-roots political process of the Croatian people, who by legal means and without foreign troops gained true sovereignty"

I strongly disagree. RH was created very EXTERNALLY prior to the actual internal fighting - even then the internal was funded by the external world, who was not neccessarily Croatian. Even Carol Off will tell you that in "The Ghosts of Medak Pocket" ... Without foreign troops ? Who are you kidding ? ????

Vuk
Member
Posts: 136
Joined: 31 Mar 2006 00:19
Location: Sweden

Post by Vuk » 29 Aug 2006 03:32

The NDH was a puppet in every sense of the word. Head of State imposed by the Italians (the Duke of Spoleto), forbidden to have an Navy (by the Italians), Forced to cede large parts of Croatia to the Italians, its territory divided into Italian and German zones of occupation, shall we go on?

Return to “Minor Axis Nations”