The following is from Global Security.com:
The Winchester Model 97 -- firing a modern 12-gauge shell -- with pump action; six-round magazine capacity; and short, 18-inch barrel was brought over by American military police and infantrymen and soon became known as the "trench sweeper." An infantryman breaking into a trench could sweep both sides of it (to the depth of a passageway) with multiple buckshot rounds. Once leaders understood the 50-meter range of this weapon, it was employed with skill. A soldier with a shotgun, fast to pump and fire, could quickly suppress German trench assaults and clear dugouts with devastating effectiveness. Out of the trenches, the Model 97 cleared Germans out of farmhouses and buildings in French villages with equal effectiveness. On 27 September 1918, Sergeant Fred Lloyd, using a Model 97, advanced alone into a German-held village and began methodically clearing it, pumping and firing the shotgun as he moved. He finally collapsed with exhaustion after routing thirty German soldiers. The combat shotgun had earned its place as an Army secondary weapon.
Did British or French forces make any use at all of the shotgun? Perhaps a few on loan from US troops?
Use of shotguns in WWI
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monk2002uk
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I have one reference. It comes from the unofficial history of the German Guard Cavalry Division. An NCO has hit in the neck by a shotgun pellet during fighting around Dinant in August 1914. The wound was described as harmless. The use of the shotgun was attributed to a civilian operating as a guerilla.
Robert
Robert
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bob lembke
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Re: Use of shotguns in WWI
Did British or French forces make any use at all of the shotgun? Perhaps a few on loan from US troops?
I have never read of it, and I doubt that they ever did, as the officers of both armies were full of the "romance of the bayonet"; it was a major doctrine, even though empirical studies showed that bayonet wounds were quite rare. (When the Brits collected autopsy results on 200,000 dead, and found 0.3% killed of bayonet wounds, they intensified bayonet training!) The stubby shotgun would have been very much against the grain. The Germans would have been much more receptive to it. My father never once mentioned anyone in his storm unit even taking a rifle along. A rifle and a long bayonet was much to unwieldly, even useless at times, in trench fighting. In his unit each man had a P 08 ("Luger") on a lanyard tucked in his shirt, many had short "razor-sharp" spades for close in, they had various crew-served weapons, and I think NCOs, in an interesting reversal, may have carried a mostly-slung carbine. No rifles per se.
It is also unlikely that the British or French were inclined to adopt new weapons of techniques from the AEF, as they considered the Yanks quite raw and untrained (with reason), although the magnificent physical condition of the American troops was appreciated.
I have a similar shotgun, with rifle sights, and I do consider it an awsome weapon, and with the combination of magnum "double-O buck", birdshot, and rifled slugs, a very flexible one.
Bob Lembke
I have never read of it, and I doubt that they ever did, as the officers of both armies were full of the "romance of the bayonet"; it was a major doctrine, even though empirical studies showed that bayonet wounds were quite rare. (When the Brits collected autopsy results on 200,000 dead, and found 0.3% killed of bayonet wounds, they intensified bayonet training!) The stubby shotgun would have been very much against the grain. The Germans would have been much more receptive to it. My father never once mentioned anyone in his storm unit even taking a rifle along. A rifle and a long bayonet was much to unwieldly, even useless at times, in trench fighting. In his unit each man had a P 08 ("Luger") on a lanyard tucked in his shirt, many had short "razor-sharp" spades for close in, they had various crew-served weapons, and I think NCOs, in an interesting reversal, may have carried a mostly-slung carbine. No rifles per se.
It is also unlikely that the British or French were inclined to adopt new weapons of techniques from the AEF, as they considered the Yanks quite raw and untrained (with reason), although the magnificent physical condition of the American troops was appreciated.
I have a similar shotgun, with rifle sights, and I do consider it an awsome weapon, and with the combination of magnum "double-O buck", birdshot, and rifled slugs, a very flexible one.
Bob Lembke
I ordered one of the IAC Winchester 97 Trench Gun copies (with some trepidation as I'd heard both positive and negative reviews). When it arrived at the gunstore and I opened the box I was pleasantly surprised to find a nicely made weapon, with well-done blue and Missouri walnut stock. The heat shield and bayonet lug assembly seems well-rendered also.
For $319 plus tax it seemed a decent buy. Now I only hope it shoots as well.
For $319 plus tax it seemed a decent buy. Now I only hope it shoots as well.
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bob lembke
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"Shoots as well"
How can you tell with a shotgun? (I know, I know, a superficial comment.)
Bob Lembke
Bob Lembke
what's your refrence?monk2002uk wrote:I have one reference. It comes from the unofficial history of the German Guard Cavalry Division. An NCO has hit in the neck by a shotgun pellet during fighting around Dinant in August 1914. The wound was described as harmless. The use of the shotgun was attributed to a civilian operating as a guerilla.
Robert
Re: Use of shotguns in WWI
European armies were to proud to use shotguns. Death by shotgun is much more painful than rifle, but then shrapnel comes into question. It was something we Americans adopted fighting the red indians in the settleing of the west. The Kaiser ordered for any Ameerican POWs found with that Winchester to be executed. However, I recently learned on the "Battle of Kamina" post in the colonial section, that German reservists may have used hunting ammunition against the British in Togo, and the colony's govenor was charged with warcrimes because the Brits mistakenly thought they were dum-dum sheells, but the charges were latter dropped. I'm not sure if they were shotgun rounds, but I'm certainly guessing so. The Brits also could have dreamed it up.Slater wrote:
Did British or French forces make any use at all of the shotgun? Perhaps a few on loan from US troops?
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Carl Schwamberger
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I've seen US soldiers carrying shotguns in many photographs. Usually the one carrying the weapon is the older sergeant. In the US Army smoothbore musket era an ammunition load called informally 'Buck and Ball' was susposedly used. This ammunition was to provide a shot load usefull for close quarters fighting and a heavier ball for longer ranges.
In WWII a canister round was provided for the US 37mm guns. This was actually used vs the Japanese. In the 1960s we saw the M79 Grenade launcher provided with a 'buckshot' cartridge. This ammunition was still present when I led Marines equipped with the M203 grenade launcher at the end of the 20th Century. We also still trained with 12 guage pump shotguns in the 1980s.
I think the inclusion of the shotgun originates from the pervasive rural experince at hunting in the 19th Century in North America. Perhaps the Canadian soldier had a fondness for shotguns as well?
In WWII a canister round was provided for the US 37mm guns. This was actually used vs the Japanese. In the 1960s we saw the M79 Grenade launcher provided with a 'buckshot' cartridge. This ammunition was still present when I led Marines equipped with the M203 grenade launcher at the end of the 20th Century. We also still trained with 12 guage pump shotguns in the 1980s.
I think the inclusion of the shotgun originates from the pervasive rural experince at hunting in the 19th Century in North America. Perhaps the Canadian soldier had a fondness for shotguns as well?
Carl - I once read that the shotgun was issued to US Army infantry sergeants in WWI. Unfortunately, I cannot cite a reference. I can say that my grandfather, an 'old infantry sergeant (35)' carried a shotgun in the Meuse Argonne campaign.
Regarding the German Protest of 1918, allow me to cite the following:
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The 1918 German Protest
On 19 September 1918, the Government of Switzerland, representing German interests in the United States, presented to the U.S. Secretary of State a cablegram received by the Swiss Foreign Office containing the following diplomatic protest by the Government of Germany:
“The German Government protests against the use of shotguns by the American Army and calls attention to the fact that according to the law of war (Kriegsrecht) every [U.S.] prisoner [of war] found to have in his possession such guns or ammunition belonging thereto forfeits his life.
This protest is based upon article 23(e) of the Hague convention [sic] respecting the laws and customs of war on land. Reply by cable is required before October 1, 1918.”
The German protest was precipitated in part by the capture in the Baccarat Sector (Lorraine) of France, on 21 July 1918, of a U.S. soldier from the 307th Infantry Regiment, 154th Infantry Brigade, 77th Division, AEF, who was armed with a 12-gauge Winchester Model 97 repeating trench (shot) gun, and a second, similarly-armed AEF soldier from the 6th Infantry Regiment, 10th Infantry Brigade, 5th Division, on 11 September 1918 in the Villers-en-Haye Sector. Each presumably possessed issue ammunition, which was the Winchester "Repeater" shell, containing nine No. 00 buckshot.
The German protest was forwarded by the Department of State to the War Department, which sought the advice of The Judge Advocate General of the Army. Brigadier General Samuel T. Ansell, Acting Judge Advocate General, responded by lengthy memorandum dated 26 September 1918. Addressing the German protest, General Ansell stated:
“Article 23(e) simply calls for comparison between the injury or suffering caused and the necessities of warfare. It is legitimate to kill the enemy and as many of them, and as quickly, as possible . . . . It is to be condemned only when it wounds, or does not kill immediately, in such a way as to produce suffering that has no reasonable relation to the killing or placing the man out of action for an effective period.
The shotgun, although an ancient weapon, finds its class or analogy, as to purpose and effect, in many modern weapons. The dispersion of the shotgun [pellets] . . . is adapted to the necessary purpose of putting out of action more than one of the charging enemy with each shot of the gun; and in this respect it is exactly analogous to shrapnel shell discharging a multitude of small [fragments] or a machine gun discharging a spray of . . . bullets.
The diameter of the bullet is scarcely greater than that of a rifle or machine gun. The weight of it is very much less. And, in both size and weight, it is less than the . . . [fragments] of a shrapnel shell . . . . Obviously a pellet the size of a .32-caliber bullet, weighing only enough to be effective at short ranges, does not exceed the limit necessary for putting a man immediately hors de combat.
The only instances even where a shotgun projectile causes more injury to any one enemy soldier than would a hit by a rifle bullet are instances where the enemy soldier has approached so close to the shooter that he is struck by more than one of the nine . . . [No. 00 buckshot projectiles] contained in the cartridge. This, like the effect of the dispersing of . . . [fragments] from a shrapnel shell, is permissible either in behalf of greater effectiveness or as an unavoidable incident of the use of small scattering projectiles for the necessary purpose of increasing [the] likelihood of killing a number of enemies.
General Ansell concluded his memorandum with the statement that "The protest is without legal merit."
Acting Secretary of War Benedict Crowell endorsed General Ansell’s memorandum of law and forwarded it to the Secretary of State that same day. Secretary of State Robert Lansing provided the following reply to the Government of Germany two days later:
”[T]he . . . provision of the Hague convention, cited in the protest, does not . . . forbid the use of this . . . weapon . . . . n view of the history of the shotgun as a weapon of warfare, and in view of the well-known effects of its present use, and in the light of a comparison of it with other weapons approved in warfare, the shotgun . . . cannot be the subject of legitimate or reasonable protest.
“The Government of the United States notes the threat of the German Government to execute every prisoner of war found to have in his possession shotguns or shotgun ammunition. Inasmuch as the weapon is lawful and may be rightfully used, its use will not be abandoned by the American Army . . .
“f the German Government should carry out its threat in a single instance, it will be the right and duty of the . . . United States to make such reprisals as will best protect the American forces, and notice is hereby given of the intention of the . . . United States to make such reprisals.”
World War I ended six weeks later, without reply by Germany to the United States response. There is no record of any subsequent capture by German forces of any U.S. soldier or marine armed with a shotgun or possessing shotgun ammunition, or of Germany carrying out its threat against the U.S. soldiers it captured earlier.
The position of the United States as to the legality of shotguns remains unchanged from that stated in the opinion of Brigadier General Ansell and the Secretary of State’s 28 September 1918 reply to the government of Germany.
Source: OCTOBER 1997 THE ARMY LAWYER • DA-PAM 27-50-299 16
W. Hays Parks, Special Assistant for Law of War Matters. Office of The Judge Advocate General, U.S. Army, Washington, D.C.
Regarding the German Protest of 1918, allow me to cite the following:
______
The 1918 German Protest
On 19 September 1918, the Government of Switzerland, representing German interests in the United States, presented to the U.S. Secretary of State a cablegram received by the Swiss Foreign Office containing the following diplomatic protest by the Government of Germany:
“The German Government protests against the use of shotguns by the American Army and calls attention to the fact that according to the law of war (Kriegsrecht) every [U.S.] prisoner [of war] found to have in his possession such guns or ammunition belonging thereto forfeits his life.
This protest is based upon article 23(e) of the Hague convention [sic] respecting the laws and customs of war on land. Reply by cable is required before October 1, 1918.”
The German protest was precipitated in part by the capture in the Baccarat Sector (Lorraine) of France, on 21 July 1918, of a U.S. soldier from the 307th Infantry Regiment, 154th Infantry Brigade, 77th Division, AEF, who was armed with a 12-gauge Winchester Model 97 repeating trench (shot) gun, and a second, similarly-armed AEF soldier from the 6th Infantry Regiment, 10th Infantry Brigade, 5th Division, on 11 September 1918 in the Villers-en-Haye Sector. Each presumably possessed issue ammunition, which was the Winchester "Repeater" shell, containing nine No. 00 buckshot.
The German protest was forwarded by the Department of State to the War Department, which sought the advice of The Judge Advocate General of the Army. Brigadier General Samuel T. Ansell, Acting Judge Advocate General, responded by lengthy memorandum dated 26 September 1918. Addressing the German protest, General Ansell stated:
“Article 23(e) simply calls for comparison between the injury or suffering caused and the necessities of warfare. It is legitimate to kill the enemy and as many of them, and as quickly, as possible . . . . It is to be condemned only when it wounds, or does not kill immediately, in such a way as to produce suffering that has no reasonable relation to the killing or placing the man out of action for an effective period.
The shotgun, although an ancient weapon, finds its class or analogy, as to purpose and effect, in many modern weapons. The dispersion of the shotgun [pellets] . . . is adapted to the necessary purpose of putting out of action more than one of the charging enemy with each shot of the gun; and in this respect it is exactly analogous to shrapnel shell discharging a multitude of small [fragments] or a machine gun discharging a spray of . . . bullets.
The diameter of the bullet is scarcely greater than that of a rifle or machine gun. The weight of it is very much less. And, in both size and weight, it is less than the . . . [fragments] of a shrapnel shell . . . . Obviously a pellet the size of a .32-caliber bullet, weighing only enough to be effective at short ranges, does not exceed the limit necessary for putting a man immediately hors de combat.
The only instances even where a shotgun projectile causes more injury to any one enemy soldier than would a hit by a rifle bullet are instances where the enemy soldier has approached so close to the shooter that he is struck by more than one of the nine . . . [No. 00 buckshot projectiles] contained in the cartridge. This, like the effect of the dispersing of . . . [fragments] from a shrapnel shell, is permissible either in behalf of greater effectiveness or as an unavoidable incident of the use of small scattering projectiles for the necessary purpose of increasing [the] likelihood of killing a number of enemies.
General Ansell concluded his memorandum with the statement that "The protest is without legal merit."
Acting Secretary of War Benedict Crowell endorsed General Ansell’s memorandum of law and forwarded it to the Secretary of State that same day. Secretary of State Robert Lansing provided the following reply to the Government of Germany two days later:
”[T]he . . . provision of the Hague convention, cited in the protest, does not . . . forbid the use of this . . . weapon . . . . n view of the history of the shotgun as a weapon of warfare, and in view of the well-known effects of its present use, and in the light of a comparison of it with other weapons approved in warfare, the shotgun . . . cannot be the subject of legitimate or reasonable protest.
“The Government of the United States notes the threat of the German Government to execute every prisoner of war found to have in his possession shotguns or shotgun ammunition. Inasmuch as the weapon is lawful and may be rightfully used, its use will not be abandoned by the American Army . . .
“f the German Government should carry out its threat in a single instance, it will be the right and duty of the . . . United States to make such reprisals as will best protect the American forces, and notice is hereby given of the intention of the . . . United States to make such reprisals.”
World War I ended six weeks later, without reply by Germany to the United States response. There is no record of any subsequent capture by German forces of any U.S. soldier or marine armed with a shotgun or possessing shotgun ammunition, or of Germany carrying out its threat against the U.S. soldiers it captured earlier.
The position of the United States as to the legality of shotguns remains unchanged from that stated in the opinion of Brigadier General Ansell and the Secretary of State’s 28 September 1918 reply to the government of Germany.
Source: OCTOBER 1997 THE ARMY LAWYER • DA-PAM 27-50-299 16
W. Hays Parks, Special Assistant for Law of War Matters. Office of The Judge Advocate General, U.S. Army, Washington, D.C.
Every time I see one of the old Winchester '97 trench guns, I'm reminded of a comment made by one WWI vet I spoke with in probably 1978 or '79. He said that while the shotguns worked well in the mud of the trenches, they had an annoying tendency to break when you used them as a club(!) . . . I think that, more than anything else, brought home to me the actual violence of trench warfare.
Re: Use of shotguns in WWI
FYI, a clipping from a newspaper from that era.
____________________
SHOTGUN "BARBARISM" SHOCKS GERMAN PRESS
Tomahawks and Scalping Knives Next for Our Troops, Who Are "Not Honorable Warriors"
THE HAGUE, July 17 - German newspapers received here are raising a bother over a story received in Germany from Switzerland to the effect that a large number of American troops have been supplied with sawed-off shotguns for close fighting.
The Cologne Gazetter, in commenting on the report, denounces America's barbarism and assumes that tomahawks and scalping knives will soon appear on the American front. The newspaper warns the German troops that the Americans are not "honorable warriors."
The Weser Zeitung says the barbarous shotguns have been served out not because they are likely to be effective, but because the ill-trained Americans cannot use rifles and are badly supplied with machine guns.
Source: The New York Times, July 18, 1918.
____________________
SHOTGUN "BARBARISM" SHOCKS GERMAN PRESS
Tomahawks and Scalping Knives Next for Our Troops, Who Are "Not Honorable Warriors"
THE HAGUE, July 17 - German newspapers received here are raising a bother over a story received in Germany from Switzerland to the effect that a large number of American troops have been supplied with sawed-off shotguns for close fighting.
The Cologne Gazetter, in commenting on the report, denounces America's barbarism and assumes that tomahawks and scalping knives will soon appear on the American front. The newspaper warns the German troops that the Americans are not "honorable warriors."
The Weser Zeitung says the barbarous shotguns have been served out not because they are likely to be effective, but because the ill-trained Americans cannot use rifles and are badly supplied with machine guns.
Source: The New York Times, July 18, 1918.
Re: Use of shotguns in WWI
One of the nicest features (for close combat) with the Model 97 Winchester trench shotgun is its ability to fire quickly. Simply hold the trigger while pumping the forearm, and each time the forearm goes fully forward, the gun fires again without having to release and re-pull the trigger. 5 shots can be fired in very quick succession this way, literally as fast as you can pump the action. Shotguns were used in Viet Nam, too, besides both world wars and Korea.
Re: Use of shotguns in WWI
I came across another article in The New York Times dealing with the use of shotguns by US troops. The article is quite lengthy so I will only post a snip. The complete article is available for free in the Times online archives at the link shown below.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.h ... 946996D6CF
The New York Times
September 30, 1918
REPRISAL THREAT OVER SHOTGUNS
German Ultimatum Demands That America Cease Arming Troops with Such Weapons.
WILL EXECUTE PRISONERS
State Department Defends Use and Will Warn Germany of Counter-Reprisals Here. Will Threaten Counter-Reprisals. American Position Plain. Shotguns Used in Police Work.
AMSTERDAM, Sept. 29.--Germany, through the Swiss Legation, has sent an ultimatum to the Government of the United States that if no satisfactory answer is forthcoming by Oct. 1 to the German protest about the use of shotguns by American soldiers "reprisals will be taken."
(article continued in archives)
________
As an aside shotguns are being used by the US military in Iraq and Afghanistan.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.h ... 946996D6CF
The New York Times
September 30, 1918
REPRISAL THREAT OVER SHOTGUNS
German Ultimatum Demands That America Cease Arming Troops with Such Weapons.
WILL EXECUTE PRISONERS
State Department Defends Use and Will Warn Germany of Counter-Reprisals Here. Will Threaten Counter-Reprisals. American Position Plain. Shotguns Used in Police Work.
AMSTERDAM, Sept. 29.--Germany, through the Swiss Legation, has sent an ultimatum to the Government of the United States that if no satisfactory answer is forthcoming by Oct. 1 to the German protest about the use of shotguns by American soldiers "reprisals will be taken."
(article continued in archives)
________
As an aside shotguns are being used by the US military in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Re: Use of shotguns in WWI
Eureka!
After almost 4 years of searching I came across a US Army website which mentions NCO's carrying shotguns in combat (91st Infantry Division, now the 91st Training Brigade).
http://www.usar.army.mil/arweb/organiza ... fault.aspx
A snip from the website describing the beginning of the MA battle.
The 91st Division was prepared to attack -- each brigade had a front line 1-kilometer wide, with one battalion in reserve. The 91st had several advantages:
1. The German army was weakening from long years of war.
2. The 91st Division was fresh and equipped with twice as many machineguns and automatic rifles than other European armies.
3. The 91st Division noncommissioned officers usually took shotguns for close-in trench fighting, which was viewed as barbaric by all other European armies.
After almost 4 years of searching I came across a US Army website which mentions NCO's carrying shotguns in combat (91st Infantry Division, now the 91st Training Brigade).
http://www.usar.army.mil/arweb/organiza ... fault.aspx
A snip from the website describing the beginning of the MA battle.
The 91st Division was prepared to attack -- each brigade had a front line 1-kilometer wide, with one battalion in reserve. The 91st had several advantages:
1. The German army was weakening from long years of war.
2. The 91st Division was fresh and equipped with twice as many machineguns and automatic rifles than other European armies.
3. The 91st Division noncommissioned officers usually took shotguns for close-in trench fighting, which was viewed as barbaric by all other European armies.
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Dave Bender
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Belgium Use of Shotguns
Shotguns were commonly used by Belgium irregular forces during August 1914. I don't know if they were privately owed or part of the 100,000 weapons distributed by the Belgium Government on 5 Aug 1914 to the so called "Inactive Garde Civique". For instance this quote from "The Mons Myth".
Wolff-Metterich was carrying an order from 9th Cavalry Divsion to 13th Cavalry Brigade at 1100 on 7 August. He had just entered a sunken road when he heard a blast and a load of buckshot wizzed past his head. He pushed through the hedge and saw a trembling civilian sitting ten paces in front of him, grabbed a shotgun from his hands and broke the stock over his head. Then he noticed that it was a brand new weapon with a shell ejector. "Too bad that it was now Kaput."