Murder of Tobruk Africans???

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Peter
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Re: Murder of Tobruk Africans???

Post by Peter » 02 Apr 2009 16:42

I will email him

Peter
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Re: Murder of Tobruk Africans???

Post by Peter » 07 Apr 2009 13:17

On Thursday afternoon I sent him a polite email explaining my research so far and requesting the source of the information, it is now Tuesday afternoon, no reply so far.

tommy303
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Re: Murder of Tobruk Africans???

Post by tommy303 » 07 Apr 2009 17:55

I have found two other references, one in English and one in German, which mention the same incident as described by Ashley Jackson, but both are so similarly worded and fairly contemporary with Jackson's account that one cannot help but think they came from the same source. I have also looked over the on line memorials and have come up with nothing to corroborate Jackson's account. I cannot help but wonder, as previously, if the account was based on a mistaken assessment at the time and that the missing soldiers later turned up elsewhere.

UMachine
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Re: Murder of Tobruk Africans???

Post by UMachine » 08 Apr 2009 13:24

They have to be those Eritreans drafted into service,possibly they were never registered?The lack of graves for an incident like that is not surprising,the motive is easily explained as revenge for desertion and traitorous behavior.

Jon G.
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Re: Murder of Tobruk Africans???

Post by Jon G. » 08 Apr 2009 14:17

I posted a blurb about HCT pioneers here http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1192643 apparently they replaced East African pioneers after a 'breakdown' during the retreat from Tobruk in 1942.

Peter
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Re: Murder of Tobruk Africans???

Post by Peter » 08 Apr 2009 14:57

UMachine wrote:They have to be those Eritreans drafted into service,possibly they were never registered?The lack of graves for an incident like that is not surprising,the motive is easily explained as revenge for desertion and traitorous behavior.
I have no knowledge of the origins of the men of 1823 Coy, African Pioneer Corps but dont understand why you would think they were "never registered" or what that might mean.

If a man was in service with the British Army he would have a Number (so that he could be paid) and he would be a part of a unit (so that he was given work).

As members of 1823 Coy are found in the records with numbers and are commemorated on memorials when graves are not found I fail to understand your argument.................or do you suggest that some members of 1823 Coy were treated differently ??

Which Eritreans ?

As you can see from the copy page from the records I posted, men of local units were properly enlisted, given numbers, became members of units.

There are local units such as

Libyan Arab Force
2nd Motor Bn, Eastern Arab Corps
1st Motor Bn, Camel Corps
Sudan Defence Force

The lack of graves for an incident like that is not surprising
Which incident involving British or Commonwealth personnel in Europe or North Africa do you base this statement on ?

It would be the first time I've been unable to ID the commemoration of victims of a massacre of British or Commonwealth services personnel (either graves or memorial) so I am very surprised, hence my interest here.
The lack of graves for an incident like that is not surprising,the motive is easily explained as revenge for desertion and traitorous behavior
I am unaware of any lack of loyalty amongst these units and the British and Commonwealth forces actually commemorated even those of their men who they executed for capital crimes. Some examples below

ie:
3564402 Private Jennings DM 24.07.41
4918596 Private Peach A 30.01.42
4538424 Private Johnson C 15.04.42
6008711 Lance Corp. Austin FJ 30.04.42
13900160 Corporal Rayner DG 31.03.43
L/27572 Private Sangret A 29.04.43
E/22936 Private Raymond CA 10.07.43
E/10248 Private Gauthier CE 24.09.43
7399163 Private Casey T 19.11.43
A/29600 Private McEwen MC 03.02.44
1072347 Sergeant Digby EC 16.03.44
6105471 Gunner Kemp E 06.06.44
14425572 Private Davidson JG 12.07.44
G/45066 Private Gordon HB 09.01.45
2940127 Private Thompson A 31.01.45
D/106883 Bombardier Grossley H 05.09.45
3606419 Lance Corp. Smith SJ 07.08.46

UMachine
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Re: Murder of Tobruk Africans???

Post by UMachine » 08 Apr 2009 19:57

Peter,the Eritreans I mentioned in"Tale Of An Italian Askari In British Captivity"
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=151369

Those other Africans you mention were commonwealth from the start,were they not?The Eritreans were sent to do roadwork and such towards that area,what is recorded of their enlistment and eventual fate?I would think they were treated differently.And what exactly was the so called "breakdown"that Jon G. mentions?

I have heard a different story,the pieces which seem to point to this,the numbers,the race,the religion,but it's second hand,and as such not acceptable here,I will try to obtain Dr.Jacksons article,Motivation And Mobilization For War"The Recruitment of Pioneers".There has to be something to it if a professor put it to print,don't you think?

Jon G.
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Re: Murder of Tobruk Africans???

Post by Jon G. » 08 Apr 2009 20:34

UMachine, unfortunately Jackson does not elaborate what the 'breakdown' of East Africans at Tobruk means. He sources it thusly:

Prynne to Scott, 2/7/45, WO 253/1, PRO. See Parsons, The African Rank-and-File, 27, 208.

UMachine
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Re: Murder of Tobruk Africans???

Post by UMachine » 08 Apr 2009 23:22

Thank you Jon.

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Peter H
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Re: Murder of Tobruk Africans???

Post by Peter H » 04 Feb 2010 12:07

From ebay,appollo133,captured African labour troops
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